wylodmayer

I previously put forth a "WWYCD" thread regarding merchandising, and this is along the same vein (also prompted by running across some of the G4 ComicCon preview stuff). How would your character relate to fans and - especially - cons (like comic and/or sci-fi cons)? Would he go to them in secret ID, surreptitiously checking out prices on his merch? Or would he roundly condemn them? Make surprise appearances in costume? Think they're bizarre and creepy? Feel free to extend the discussion to include fan clubs and fansites. As for my guys... Ace: Has a public ID and a job as a stunt man and stunt coordinator for a number of ubergeeky shows (like Highlander and Buffy, when they were on). He regularly attends cons, giving demonstrations of stage fighting and stunt techniques, as well as answering questions about his superhero career. He's also an incorrigible lech who used his fame to nail every fangirl and washed up sci-fi cleavage queen between LA and NYC. Cat: Collected comics when younger, dreaming of superheroes she hoped would rescue her from her miserable life. She still reads comics, something she keeps a secret from her teammates - especially since the comics she reads are the cheesiest and four-coloriest of them all, a proclivity that belies her cynical, hardbitten demeanor and reveals her for a starry-eyed romantic after all. She goes to cons in her secret ID, but avoids any stuff about real superheroes, preferring to stick to her Golden Age fantasies of tights-clad white knights who can do no wrong. The real world - and the truth about real heroes - depresses her. Ingrid: Doesn't read comics and probably wouldn't like them very much; she's also totally unaware of "fan culture." She prefers Greek myths or nigh-fascistic pulp-hero stuff. Terminaxx: A jerk. If he ever found out that there were fansites for him, he'd probably log on just to heckle his adoring throngs. He might try to go to cons to score with the girls, but really, he's more interested in being a complete p***k than using his.

Re: The artwork drives me nuts Seriously. There's just something about art direction in the RPG business... I don't know if people take the right approach to it. Do other businesses which need graphics have this kind of problem? To this degree? If it's just us (i.e., the RPG biz), then maybe there's an industry-wide misconception about how this sort of thing needs to be handled... I dunno. One thing I will ask, though, and not be a "school snob," but have RPG companies tried dealing mainly with people who have, say, art degrees? The quality of the art may not be any better than the amateurs, but at least you know those folks understand the concept of a "deadline" - they'd have had to, to get through school. That is, after all, the purpose of looking for a degree on someone's resume - it's not the quality of the work, which can be judged in other ways, but knowing that this person can deal with a modicum of bureaucracy and arbitrary guidelines on his work. I mean, don't get me wrong, I know a lot of my favorite game artists aren't grads of any art school, but if meeting deadlines is a paramount consideration... well, just a thought.

Re: The artwork drives me nuts keyes_bill and death_tribble (btw, bill, I haven't forgotten - financial aid drops in a month!) have a good point; artists are notoriously flaky. Again, though, that's why I think that having some "generic" pieces bought at fire-sale prices from aspiring artists would be useful - if you're putting out a fantasy book, and you need a picture of a warrior type, just drop in something you already have if the guy you contracted flakes on you. Plus, commisioning "generic" works - just one or two, say - from someone let's you "test the waters" and see if the guy can meet a deadline. I haven't run any financial scenarios on it, but I'd be willing to bet that the (minimal) up-front investment on this would be more than balanced by the savings accrued from not having to go through the kind of nightmare teh_bunneh is describing. That said, as soon as my scanner is working, I'd be willing to prostitute my meager talents. I work for spare change and leftover chocolate bars, if that gives you any idea of my skill level.

Re: Go home, Superman! Now see, I can get behind that approach for having Bats deal with cosmic threats. And no, I most emphatically do not buy the "Batman could beat Superman" argument. Nice ideas, though, all of 'em. Of course, see my previous posts for why I think Superman would usually leave super-normal criminals (like Joker et al) alone.

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

Re: The artwork drives me nuts ghost-angel mentions that he never bought a book because of the art. I never have either, but while I know some people who have, I don't believe that's the main thrust of this discussion. The pertinent question is not whether good art can make someone buy a book, it's whether bad art can cause someone to not buy a book. Therein lies the crux of the concern; is the cruddy art in some recent HERO books hurting sales? I'd be willing to believe it is, not only because the primitive parts of our brain respond well to pretty things but because we respond very poorly to unpretty things. Graphic design and presentation in books are important - no retailer worth his salt will deny it. The hyper-logical types who buy strictly based on reviews can pooh-pooh the idea all they want, but - again as g-a mentioned - they are not the average consumer, and they do not drive sales figures. As for letting artists get better... let them do it on their own time. I don't shell out thirty bucks for a game book to subsidize some guy's art lessons. I could do better than much of what I see in recent books, and I'm not a very good artist on my best day. When I see someone who can't do better than me, a guy who took exactly one art class twenty years ago, well, I get the feeling that someone at the company just doesn't give a crap. Or has no taste.

Re: How many points does a person have? I think after my last pass at building myself in HERO I came out to be about 35 points plus disads. I don't think my build was unreasonable. I rolled together as many of my "miscellaneous" knowledge skills as I could (like KS: RPGs, instead of taking one for each system) and I don't recall having any skill higher than about 12. I do have a lot of knowledge skills... however, I'm halfway through an MA, I have two BAs, four undergrad minors, and a previous (five year) career in another field unrelated to any of those. So... I actually do have a lot of knowledge skills. Plus, some of my physical stats have come up lately, since I've been hitting the gym five days a week for the past seven months (although they've only come up, now, to about average, from pathetically below average). I can't imagine anyone I know being built on more than, say, 50 to 75 base points. I know one guy who is probably at the outer edge of that, a fella I went to high school with. Former Eagle Scout and third degree black belt in Wado karate, shotputter on the track and field team, an excellent artist and bass guitar player, and currently the holder of three MAs and a PhD. He's got a significant number of points. But I wouldn't hazard that even he breaks 75, maybe 100, base.

Re: Superhero power levels Some editors-in-chief have been better than others. The current regime at Marvel is... well, it leaves a lot to be desired. Whatever you may think of Big Jim Shooter's early writing, post-Marvel work, or the fact that he let Jean Grey get brought back from the dead on his watch (Jim! How could you!), he maintained a great deal of editorial control over the Marvel U. He insisted on strict adherence to continuity not just with reference to a character's earlier adventures, but when characters from one title appeared in another. Sure, he was a jerk in some ways (his ban on gay characters chafes my hide), but I respect the fact that he wanted his writers to respect what had gone before.

Re: The artwork drives me nuts I just wanted to chime in, here. I also love HERO and wouldn't think of abandoning the system or the company's products. However, some items would be better off without art at all rather than with the art they have (I'm thinking about Teen Champions here, but there are others). I can't understand why this is the case. Certainly getting really good artists might cost, and I understand what it's like to work on a limited budget (me am graduate student). However, there are lots of talented artists out there who are trying to break into the field who would be willing to work cheap or even free just to get some work in front of some noses to be seen. Sites like deviantart (which isn't about what I thought it was going to be about, I'm sorry to say) abound with aspiring artists who would gladly volunteer pieces for little or no cost. Certainly many of them are abyssmal artists, but some are pretty good, for amateurs. The long and the short of it is, with so many people trying to get into the biz, and with so much talent out there, I find it difficult to believe that the art I'm seeing in some of the books is the best that HERO Games could get for the price. I find it more plausible to believe that there's a lack of diligence in seeking out that better art for as-much-or-less cost. Of course, I also understand that there is a danger - and thus a financial cost - associated with "trying out" new artists: namely, that they might not perform on schedule. I am also sympathetic to this concern. But if I might venture a humble suggestion, based in part on Lord Mhoram's point? Perhaps HERO could buy "generically appropriate" pieces from novice artists at rock-bottom prices - that is, not illustrations of any specific hero or spaceship, but illustrations of heroes and spaceships generally - and then use these as "go-to" filler art as needed in the books. It would cut down on costs as well as deadline pressures, in addition to providing a low-risk way of finding out if certain wannabe illustrators can turn in work on a schedule.

Re: Who are the DC/Marvel cat-themed villains? Marvel has Flying Tiger, an old Spider Man foe who has a cat-headed costume and flies. Cat-Man from the Ani-Men, also from Marvel. The original Black Cat, a male cat burglar from way back in Spider Man's history. Does Cheshire count as a cat-themed villain (from DC)? She doesn't actually use a cat theme per se, but there is the name... Puma, another Marvel pseudo-villain is cat-themed - once again, someone Spider Man fought. All I can think of off hand.

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See? Sorry, I thought we were talking about Champions Universe. Brain fuzzy. My bad. Although... it could still make a decent example, in abbreviated form, of how to do that kind of thing, and the importance it might have to setting up your campaign.

Re: Disadvantage: Hunted, Rogues' Gallery? Well, I certainly agree with that, jk, but my point was that I think perhaps a "more pow" label is warranted even if they don't team up, simply because an array of villains can present, even individually, a wider range of threats and challenges to a PC, calling for more resourcefulness on his part. I'm not sure that argument carries forward, though. Hm. Thoughts?

Re: Delaying an opponent Well, STUN Only is a -0 limitation. But, while this kind of attack can temporarily delay an opponent, it can't drop him - not directly, anyway. I'd suggest -1/2 for "only for Stunning/KD/KB," and -3/4 for "only for Stunning (no KD or KB)" (but only if the power normally would do KD or KB).

Re: Go home, Superman! This does miss my point, which was about the fragility of the human body versus the lethality of punches from a guy who can stop bullet trains with a stiff arm. If Bats wants to fly his widdle plane against whatever cosmic worldbeater is currently kicking Superman around the block, let him. Giant Space World Eater Guy will spare 0.02 seconds to incinerate it with a cosmic blast - and him along with it - and go back to beating on Superman, who is tough enough to actually trade punches with the guy. Just because some braindead fanboy in his mother's basement has said it doesn't make it true. You say sarcastically what I believe wholeheartedly. The writers constantly hand Batman a free pass. One of the reasons I don't read his book or, for that matter, most other comics. I wanna see Batman b**ch and moan about how the Justice Leaguers don't train enough, and then come up against someone fast enough and strong enough to give Superman pause and watch him wind up in traction one panel later. He's only human. His reflexes have an upper limit, and people like the Flash, Superman and other superfast nutjobs can form full reactions in the time it takes his hands to realize what his brain is planning. I want to see him try to pull something on a bad guy of Superman's power level and watch the guy shatter every bone in his torso with a glancing blow (which is a generous interpretation of what would happen if you got hit by a guy who can lift the Golden Gate Bridge). Bats needs to go back to Gotham and stick to playing footsie with the Joker.

Re: Disadvantage: Hunted, Rogues' Gallery? Should they be counted as "As Powerful," or "More Powerful," even if they are all individually on his level and don't cooperate? I ask because there's a difference between one guy who is built on about the hero's level, and six to eight guys that "cover all the archetypes" built on the hero's level. The latter represent a much wider range of challenges, even if they don't gang up, and demand more, collectively, from the hero in terms of resourcefulness and ability. Plus, there's the fact that beating the Hunter only helps a little - there's five to seven more of them out there! I'd say "More Powerful," even if they don't work together.

Re: Go home, Superman! I like CotU. When they take on Big Bads, it's usually - at least it was back in the day - in a fairly plausible fashion. No one ever talked them up by claiming they could take Superman in a straight-up fight. Apples and oranges. To underscore my original point, though, look at the write-ups for the Dark Champs character Harbinger of Justice. That's probably what a Batman should look like - obscene point levels, but all for skills and contacts and HQ and stuff. He doesn't have defenses out the wazoo, and - realistically - shouldn't. HoJ is a crazy powerful character, and I know some people have called him a munchkin character, but the fact of the matter is, he's still "street level" in terms of power orientation, and he'd be flattened by, say, Dr. Destroyer. Not a dag-gummed thing he could do about the Doc, to the Doc, or to stop the Doc from killing him, except maybe not tangling with him in the first place. That's not to say that there aren't Batman-type super-normal write-ups that try to make the skilled norm hang with the superheroes in combat, taking Dex-roll dependant Damage Reduction and constructing faux Martial Attacks that do 16d6 damage and such like. That's all well and good, but - stepping away from what you can do in a game like HERO and getting back to what is plausible and internally consistent in the world where Batman et al are said to exist - I think an HoJ-style situation is what you'd be looking at. Batman is awesomely good at what he does, but, really, let's say some Galactus kinda thing drops in for a chat and to, you know, eat the Earth. Batman should be watching it on TV and praying the folks with cosmic powers keep him from getting fried. It's just not in his weight class. I actually prefer to do things this way with the skilled norms in my games. Rather than spend a ton of points building up highly implausible levels of "martial arts" attacks (with DCs that can shatter light armor... shya), I give them street-level offense and defense and dump the rest on skills and stuff. This highlights the differences in what such characters are capable of and what they do, as compared to "normal" superheroes like FEPs and such like. It gives them a really different feel, and actual different areas of competence. In any case, even if we take Batman on his own terms (or rather, as some writers choose to offer him to us), there are still superhumans out there who could school him every time. Namely, Wonder Woman. As noted in the last post, she has (under at least some of her many, many backstories) been training for longer than he's been alive with much better teachers than even he had. And she's stronger, faster, and tougher. Not to mention just as sneaky and ruthless. However, the very actually last thing I want to do is wind up in an "x could beat y" debate. I merely wanted to point out that, realistically considered, Batman would not be able to take on certain kinds of challenges, and some that he theoretically could take on would require so much trouble and expense that only a raging narcissist would fail to realize that these things are better left to people with actual superpowers.

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See? I'd like to see some charts showing the attribute and power distributions, in very general form, within the CU. I don't mean for you guys to have to index every single character in the CU, but it would be helpful to me to have some idea of the comparitive power levels in the "official" continuity, such as it is. For instance, starting characters can easily afford obscene amounts of, say, Martial Arts only skill levels. Holding constant for DEX, though, it would be helpful to know that (let's say) a character who is described in one supplement as "one of the greatest martial artists to ever live" might have only, say, ten skill levels applicable to his MA. That gives me - and my players - some context for purchasing MA skill levels. It goes back to a discussion I had elsewhere on these boards about minmaxing. While I have no trouble with optimized character builds, I like for there to be some non-mechanical content attached to the various numbers; it gives players motivation other than particular levels of efficiency to buy (or not buy!) certain things. It's certainly made a difference in my campaigns. One of the most outstanding examples of this I can think of would be STR in my Marvel campaign. Marvel has established, through the OHATMU, that folks who can lift about 100 tons are at the upper end of strength in their universe. But a Champions character can easily afford to start stronger than that. Now, I have no problem with letting a PC be "the strongest," but it's a choice that would need to be made in context, and it would have serious implications for the status of that character in the game-world. It was thus important for my players to know if their planned purchases would send them sailing past Thor in terms of Strength, or Mr Fantastic in terms of Intelligence, etc. Basically, I'd like some idea of where these "benchmarks" are in the CU - a couple of charts, a la MSHRPG or Mayfair's DC Heroes, would be easy to produce. Heck, I cobbled together some for my Marvel game, benchmarking not only stats but attacks and movement as well. I'd be happy to share them... or even do the research and write them for the CU myself! Either way, it would give me a little more of a "feel" for the CU. I've been reading Marvel comics - and playing Marvel RPGs! - for so long, I instinctively know who's smarter than whom, who's stronger and faster than whom. I don't have such a feel for the CU, in part because I don't have thirty years of reading CU comics to fall back on when making those kinds of judgments. Charts like the kind I'm talking about would really help me feel as comfy in "eyeballing" things for the CU as I am in "established" universes like DC and Marvel, which would make my campaigns a lot better. Thanks.

Re: Go home, Superman!

Re: Go home, Superman! Actually, given most estimates of Superman's speed, he could get from just about any point in NYC metro to any other point in less than a minute (sometimes a lot less). Still, the thread seems to have hit on the best idea for dealing with Superman in particular - there's other crap going on in the world, including (but not limited to) his life. Superman feels it's important to keep up a normal life as well as be a superhero, for whatever reason. Call it selfishness, call it an enlightened understanding of his own psychological limits, etc. The fact of the matter is, however, that every minute he spends talking to Lois about lunch or typing a piece on domestic policy, there is something happening within his range of hearing. And he doesn't respond. The only explanation for this is that he doesn't respond to everything. A plausible interpretation of his character is to stipulate that Superman has no desire to be a "fix" for every ill the world - or even Metropolis - has. He understands that the people of his city have to be able to deal with "normal life" on their own, and that "normal life" includes a certain amount of crime and violence. It was like that before he ever came along, and there are trained and professional individuals - police, firefighters, paramedics - who can and do manage such situations on a daily basis. On the other hand, when a plane is out of control, or a tsunami is headed for the city, or [insert villain here] is going to mind control the whole world, well, that's a job for Superman. Beyond that, he does not - except for during his designated patrol times - interrupt his other activities to respond to "normal" occurences. If something starts to sound serious, like a major event that may be spinning out of control of the local authorities, then he drops what he's doing and checks it out, but not before. So you need to ask yourself, what would most of the stuff that the characters get into "sound like"? In a lot of cases, until the climactic fight, there probably wouldn't be anything that would catch Superman's attention. However, I think the best solution is just to put the heroes in a different city, like maybe Gotham. Superman is supposed to overshadow other heroes. He's friggin' Superman. In fact, you could turn it into a story arc. The characters get annoyed with Superman "poaching" their bad guys - he lectures them on how it's not about who gets credit. Keep it up until they get the idea that Big Blue has his hometown pretty much under wraps, and that there are plenty of other large cities in America which need protectors of their own. Then you can introduce whole new NPCs and even villains... including perhaps some old ones who left the Metropolis area to get away from Superman!!!

Re: Single Green Superhero seeks.... (personels for your characters) (resurrecting the thread) Ace: SWM, rebuilt from the ground up for physical perfection. Uh... s**t, what else do I even need to say after that? Holocaust: SWF seeks SM. Must be able to handle wild mood swings, self esteem issues, superpower angst, insufferable smugness about genius-level IQ, and the fact that I'm a clinically diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. No headgames.

Re: Another Brick in the Wall (Tell me about your Brick!) Well, I hardly ever get to play superhero games (hint, hint, everyone), but back in the day, I played a brick named "Liberty" who was essentially a ditz (brunette, though, not blonde) with high strength and astounding invulnerability. Nice girl, all-American type, honest as the day is long and sweet as can be. Dumb as a box of hammers, and strong enough to tear through tank armor. Great character - had disads which basically made her naively trusting of any authority figure. I'd say she's my favorite. Liberty was a lot of fun, but in my old Marvel campaign, which I ran, there was an NPC associated with the group who was based on the Grapplers character Cowgirl. She was a very minor brick (could lift about a ton and could shrug off small calibur rounds) surrounded by some pretty heavy hitters, and wound up having a minor character arc of her own as she got the PCs to help her develop a variety of skills to supplement her powers and increase her usefulness. So, technically defined as a brick, her powers were more or less nothing compared to the PCs, so she would up being a slightly amped up skilled normal. I played Captain Marvel in a (very short lived) DC-continuity game. That was fun. One that a buddy of mine played in the aforementioned Marvel campaign. Now, this game started out using the MSH RPG system rules, and that game had random character generation. So, my pal wound up with a strong, tough character with regeneration and danger sense. Eventually, we transitioned over to MEGS and then HERO, and once we did that, he bought the danger sense up so he could sense danger to other people as well as to himself. It's a good thing, too, because prior to that, it almost never went off. The guy could shrug off a shell from a battleship gun without feeling it, and he regenerated faster than Wolverine to boot! Nothing could hurt him, and almost nothing really registered as a 'danger' to him. Of course, on the few occasions when it did go off, everyone just about s**t themselves. A: "Subplot complications."

Re: Humans are "Special" I didn't like any of the TNG crew movies, which is funny considering that I liked the series a lot. Well, relatively speaking. It must be remembered that I, generally, don't like sci-fi very much. That having been said, I am quite in love with the Battlestar Galactica reboot.

Re: Skills/Perks Help Some rangers are responsible for tours, maintaining exhibits, and other forms of education, which would probably be a PS: Educator, I guess. Others are trained as firefighters or commissioned as law enforcement officers - note that a ranger can be, and often is, certified to act in several areas of competence at once (i.e., a ranger who mainly conducts tours and whatnot but who is also commissioned for law enforcement). This would be especially true of rangers who serve in remote areas, where they are the only official presence for miles. A ranger trained as a firefighter would have the appropriate Professional and Knowledge Skills. Likewise a law enforcement-qualified ranger, who would possess, in addition, WF and possibly other "police" type skills. Bear in mind that in national parks, law enforcement rangers are federal agents, with the appropriate level of Law Enforcement Powers. Most rangers, even those not tasked with firefighting or law-enforcement duties, have wilderness first aid skills, and many have the requisite technical knowledge to organize a Search and Rescue mission. Again, rangers who need to operate on their own, away from other people, often have the skills to maintain and repair their own equipment (vehicles, radios, etc). Finally, remember that to become a US Park Ranger, you need at least a Bachelor's degree in Park Management. Anthropology, Archaeology, Ecology, Forestry, Botany, Zoology, or simple Biology are also common degrees. Many have Master's degrees.

Re: Humans are "Special" Glad you like it. The point I was making, though, was that while humans are "average" in terms of character creation for most games (i.e., no modifiers to attributes), they may not be "average" in terms of what exists in the game world. For instance, of the DnD core playable races, just to take an example: Humans are stronger than fully one-third of the main races, and are only beaten out for strength by one race. They are likewise more charismatic than one-third of the main races. In (Decipher's) Trek, of the "main" Federation species, more than a few have Int bonuses, meaning that, as long as we're taking those as our group for consideration, Humans are actually kinda dim, despite not having a penalty to Int. On the other hand, several major species have Vitality penalties, meaning that, among a certain group, humans are kinda tough. In other words, just because humans have no bonuses or penalties to attributes doesn't make them average as such, at least not for any particular area of consideration. Suppose, for instance, that DnD were written such that Elves had a slight (say, -1) Str penalty. That would leave humans and dwarves as the only main races (I don't count Half Elves) without a strength penalty, except half orcs, who have a bonus. So, in that scenario, humans are tied for 2nd strongest race out of six. Basically, in any game where different species who have different advantages tend to wind up with a penalty in the same area, humans start looking more above average all the time, at least in that one area. This can happen a lot with lazy designers, especially if they don't appreciate the use of a "charisma" stat. They can't think of any thing to penalize on their pet aliens or monsters, and so Charisma takes a hit, and, soon, Humans are in the top ten percent of "most charismatic" species... simply because just about everyone else has a penalty!

Re: Humans are "Special" Well, I can certainly agree with the remark that Prime Directive is more true to TOS in spirit than TNG was. Which may or may not be a good thing. But it's definitely "more military," which, funny enough, is a change I make in my TNG games - I play up the military angle a LOT more. And, for the record, the PD guys SHOULD be system wh*res... because the Prime Directive game that came out in the early 90s sucked monkey on wheat toast. Anything but that. I started out with FASA, and incorporated elements of it into my heavily-modded Decipher game. LUG was okay, but I didn't like the skill system. Decipher has it's flaws, too - I'd be hard pressed to call one of them a lot "better" than the other in pure concept. However, execution on LUG was clearly superior. Decipher was virtually unplayable as released, and it totally didn't have to be.