Chris Goodwin

All fantasy?  I disagree with that.

All fantasy?  I disagree with that.

De gustibus non disputandum. 
 
What makes something classic fantasy?  Because those series were both in their heyday 40 years ago.  Look back at 1974 when Lovecraft, Howard, and Ashton-Smith were writing their stuff... and it was 40 years before that.  None of those guys had any illusions that what they were writing was high literature.  (The Hobbit was published in 1937, as well.)
 
I don't build puns into my games, but as I said up-thread, both of those are in my "Appendix N".  And I've actually run a Myth Adventures game in Fantasy Hero. 
 
How much immersion does it really take to "I just want to bash orcs?"  You can do that with hex-and-counter skirmish level wargames (and where did D&D come from?).  If you're using a relatively complicated, full blown RPG system like Hero for that, IMO you might be doing more work than you need to. 

Man, I really did not intend to stir this pot again.  I just remembered that I owed CG some rep and spent some time hunting up the post! 
 
Well, done is done; I suppose.
 
 
 
Great.
 
Now I wanna go bust up some orcs in the Hundred Acre Wood.
 
Thanks.
 

 
 
 
 
Without any attempt to cast aspersions on any person or any idea, I feel pretty certain that the correct definition and examples of "classic fantasy" is going to vary significantly from one human being to another.
 
I had to explain this to myself when bookstores started putting Sci-Fi and fantasy in the same section.  As someone who generally does not care for fantasy, this was painful and insulting at the time.  I got better.
 
 
 
 

While I don't need puns and mockery, I can enjoy them.  And I don't believe that Xanth or Myth Adventures in any way are attempting to mock "classic" fantasy.  The Dancing Gods series... I wouldn't call it mockery, but is definitely satire from the inside.  (Also in my Appendix N.)
 
Me, I need a twist or I lose interest.  I can't stand the same thing over and over and over. 

I blame the fans. 
 
The game didn't bill itself as build the game you want.  The game billed itself as build a superhero.
 
Shortly afterward, the game creators offered a tweaked version of the rules and said "build yourself a spy according to these rules."  Fans said "this is exactly like the superhero rules!"  but it wasn't.  Very, very similar, at least in key high-profile bits of the system, but not the same.
 
Then the original rules were tweaked again and they went back to "build youself a superhero."  Then those rules were tweaked and,altered here and there and we fot "build yourself a superhero," and more variants and twesking of the superhero rules and spy rules lead to "build yourself a sorcerer" and "build yourself a cold war operative" and "build yourself an intergalactic adventurer" and even "build youself a mech."
 
And each one of those rules sets was _different_ in fundamental-for-their-intended-purposes ways, while retaining a lot of key similarities to the rules set that inspired the tweaks.  Unfortunately, they were similiar where the system is the most obvious, which lead to a lot of claims of "it's the exact same game!"
 
Sometimes, this was hyperbole by folks who noticed the similarities; sometimes it was sincere from folks who sae the obvious similarities and too few of the differences.
 
One thing lead to another, and we have the world's biggest set of "build yourself a superhero" while we run around proclaiming "build anything you want!"  While each subsequent edition has gotten more and more complex, and has, in its own way, tried to invent a balance that has never once existed within the rules, very little has been done to move it away from superheroes fundamentally; there have just been a thousand options dumped on top.
 
For example:  weapons familiarity, strength minimum, martial Arts, magic schools, incantations, gestures, spell components-
 
Absolutely _none_ of these are  necessary to build "6d6 magic missile" or 3d6 HKA battle axe."
 
They are just a bunch of points-sucks (for "balance") and options laid on top of Optic Blast and WolverClone and called "fantasy stuff...."
 
You _can_ make fantasy, and you dont have to squint super-hard, but you do have to pretend a lot of options are absolutely necessary, and ignore that you are using a system that, no matter how hard it has tried, to this day is optimized to make superheroes.
 
 
 
 
 

It is my belief that mages, good ones, will be in good physical condition simply because of the physical demands of casting spells -- not END or physical exertion but stress and complex gestures, etc.  If you are feeble, you tire quickly and that will affect your ability to do anything.  And casting spells badly ends very badly.  So I don't think mages should be below normal stats. And that to me is the key.
 
10's are considered heroic: normals are 8's in primary stats.  A 13 STR is someone in very fine physical condition, it takes a lot of strength to lift just 100 kg over your head, even doing it once.  160 is quite impressive.  Superheroes laugh at 10's but normal people see that as better than average, gifted.  The perspective is tough to grab when you're used to building people with at LEAST 13 in everything, because +1 to rolls and so on.

I can understand how most of the original post can be jarring but in any world where magic is plentiful the practitioners, particularly those not so good ones will seek to produce things they can sell to make a living. This in turn will inspire better mages to make new or better products to have a better living and so on. They may not call it the "germ theory of disease" but any healer mage of any notable ability  will study disease and one will eventually make the connection and pass it along. 
     What pops my button is slang and puns, bad puns. 

It was three years, Chris, but I finslly got it.
 
 

 
 

Koloth the Virile (and unlettered) is awesome!  I was snarking at the wrongfun implication, and especially at the example.  
 
And this is Fantasy Hero!  If I want to play Ellarin the Wizard who actually does know aught of international trade, and absolutely loves Jirandan food, and oh by the way did you know that this particular spice that comes from Jiranda has a beneficial effect for men of a certain age, and we'll leave that conversation right there...

DrivethruRPG has quite a lot of free maps to download, and quite a lot more that are very inexpensive. 
 
My biweekly group uses a Chessex mat and wet erase markers, and sketches out maps quickly whenever we need one.  We usually have one we're referring to when we're drawing them out.  (This is always an open book test!)
 
I used the Tech Underground map from Robot Warriors to represent an underground former Rebel base in my Star Wars Hero game, and I did exactly that when they needed it: sketched it out on the mat. 

DrivethruRPG has quite a lot of free maps to download, and quite a lot more that are very inexpensive. 
 
My biweekly group uses a Chessex mat and wet erase markers, and sketches out maps quickly whenever we need one.  We usually have one we're referring to when we're drawing them out.  (This is always an open book test!)
 
I used the Tech Underground map from Robot Warriors to represent an underground former Rebel base in my Star Wars Hero game, and I did exactly that when they needed it: sketched it out on the mat. 

Having spells without having the END to cast them is pointless.  If your REC is too low you cannot maintain the spells, and takes you too long to regain the END.  You could of course buy all your spells with reduced END or 0 END, but that makes them more expensive.   Many GM’s require spells to cost some END, so 0 END may not even be an option.
 
If the GM is tracking END and using LTE spell casters need to worry about END usage.   Spell casters in my experience tend to burn through END more than any other type of character.   Unless your combat only lasts a turn or so END becomes the limiting factor on spell casters.  Unless you want your spell caster to be a 12 second wonder you need to boost END and REC.  Prior to 6th edition Boosting your primary stats was the most efficient way to do that.
 
@Christopher R Taylor  Go back to some of those old characters and look at their stats.  If you bought up your PD, ED, REC and END try rewriting them with boosted STR and END and see if they come out cheaper.   I think you will find that investing in the primary stats does not actually reduce the points you have for your spells.    
 
 Under 5th edition Buying a 36 END and 8 REC cost 16 point.   If I buy an 18 STR and 18 CON and sell back my STUN to 20 it also costs me 16 points.  But I have 2 extra PD and ED and I am harder to stun, can lift more and make STR and CON rolls easier.   

I think the real origin of the squishy wizard is actually D&D.  In the Lord of the Ring, it was Gandalf who faced off against the Balrog not Aragorn.  Allanon in the Sword of Shannara is certainly not squishy. In Russian history Rasputin was anything but frail.  According to the stories he was poisoned twice, shot in the chest, but still survived. He was then shot and beaten but still was not dead, finally they wrapped him up and tossed him into a freezing river.  That does not sound squishy to me.
 
If you are using 5th edition with figured stats wizards are going to buy up their CON to equal that of a warrior and if they are smart will also buy up their STR to at least 13.  In fact, buying it up to 18 would actually be advantages for the wizard.  A wizard like any other character is going to buy up his PD & ED.  Spells use a lot of END, so he will want a good END and REC.  To buy 4 PD, 4 ED, 8 REC, and 36 END cost 20 points.  If I buy up my CON and STR to 18 it costs 24 points and I get 28 STUN as well.  The math makes the idea of the squishy wizard a bad assumption when using figured stats.   This is probably one of the best arguments for ditching figured stats.
 
It seems pretty clear that the idea of the wizard as a squishy character is a false assumption until at least 6th edition.  Prior to 6th edition, it would actually be more expensive build the “traditional” squishy wizard.  Even in 6th edition there is no real reason to, but at least you are not penalized for doing so.  Neither fiction nor Hero game mechanics give any reason why wizards should be squishy.  In game systems like D&D on the other hand it is nearly unavoidable.  
 

The figurine origin is well documented.

It also includes the Bulette and the Rust Monster.

It's not the hypothetical owl stealth that matters (which doesn't apply anyway since the hybrid can't fly - owls are not especially quite on the ground), it's the neck rotation and incredible night vision that also picks out movement well thing.  Hypothetically it's harder to sneak on an owlbear than a regular bear, which makes it a superior guard animal.  If anything the bear's own stealth is probably helping the owl parts hunt better, since it's at least somewhat akin to an owl's game plan - just with less swooping and more charging and mauling involved. 
 
I've seen a few rulesets that gave them limited gliding abilities that restores swooping as an option, which would go a fair ways toward making these things less absurd.  Bears climb trees quite well, making reaching a position to swoop from easy enough.
 
It's also quite likely that the intent was get a fully flight-capable hybrid out of the experiment and this is the best they could do.  Wizards are usually not aeronautical (bio)engineers. 
 
Or the original creator really, really wanted something special for a rug in their love nest and had a fur-and-feathers fetish.  If you think the owlbear's weird you should see his chinchillafinches and hamsterobins.
 
Mind you, the whole concept only makes sense to people who've been huffing too much yellow lotus dust.  More sane wizards just build animated statues and the like when they want a guard.  The really sarcastic ones sculpt them to look like owlbears.  

At GameStorm a few years ago, @lemming ran a Champions game that used 5th and 6th edition character sheets (and possibly 4th as well).  No translation necessary.  Just sit down and play.  We didn't worry about which edition it was!

To use it though, the squishy wizard has to get within melee range of the sharp, pointy warrior. 
 
Just sayin'.

At GameStorm a few years ago, @lemming ran a Champions game that used 5th and 6th edition character sheets (and possibly 4th as well).  No translation necessary.  Just sit down and play.  We didn't worry about which edition it was!

At GameStorm a few years ago, @lemming ran a Champions game that used 5th and 6th edition character sheets (and possibly 4th as well).  No translation necessary.  Just sit down and play.  We didn't worry about which edition it was!

I always appreciated the high degree of compatibility between HERO Fourth and Fifth Editions. It's very easy to use material written for one with the other, which given everything published under them, gives me a vast amount of stuff to draw from for characters, creatures, artifacts, templates, settings, rule variations... the works.

Shadowrun fans talk about how awful every Shadowrun edition is.  
 
They're like Star Wars fans, in that they both hate the things they are a fan of.  🤣

If the GM wants to create a magic system where wizards cannot use armor or weapons, then the problem is caused by the GM.  Even in that case paying cash for equipment can still give the wizard equipment.  In a world where magic works there will be some wizards who will create magic items for sale.  This is not any different than a smith creating weapons and armor.   They may be expensive, but then so should heavy armor.  It took a lot of time and effort to create a suit of full plate.  Even without magic items components still cost money, especially if you are using difficult to replace expendable foci.  You start using those and spells get even cheaper than they already are.  
 
If you want a brick type character in Fantasy Hero a wizard is much better at pulling it off than a warrior.  With things like growth and density increase it is cheaper to build a high STR character as a wizard than it is a warrior.  One level of growth and 3 levels of density increase will boost a characters STR by +30.  Buy up the STR to 20 on this character and I have a STR of 50 giving me a 10d6 punch.   In Hero system it cost the wizard the same to buy OCV and skill levels.   This means a wizard can fight as well as a warrior for the same points.   
 

Nothing in the game prevents a wizard from using weapons or wearing armor.  My wizard in one of Gauntlets games probably had some of the best defense of the group.   I started out wearing light armor (DEF 3) but ended up with 0 weight chain (DEF 6).  The rest of the group wanted the heavier DEF armor we found.  The heavy fighter preferred the DEF 10 hardened armor to the 0-weight chain. I also had a robe that gave me an additional 5 DEF for a total of 11 resistant DEF and 17 DEF total.   In addition to this I had a spell that gave me -3 DC of both physical and energy damage negation and 10 points of mental and power defense. 
 
I also had a magic staff that in addition to boosting my magic was also an enchanted weapon.  It did an extra 2d6 above a normal quarter staff and added +2 OCV to attack, or to DCV to defend.   The character has very defensive staff based martial art for when he could not cast spells.  It had only 3 maneuvers a martial block, a marital strike and a takedown.  Since I had a decent amount of attack spells my OCV was bought to max (8).  The ring of protection I wore gave me an additional +3 DCV, so the character had a high DCV.  
 
This was a pretty high-powered campaign that had been going on for a while, so the other party members were equally well equipped.  But in the beginning of the campaign, I managed to take down a knight in full plate with my staff in one shot.  I will admit it was a critical hit to the head in a campaign using both hit location and critical hits.   The heavy fighter in the group was struggling with an identical foe.  At that point all I had was an ordinary staff and some DEF 3 armor plus my spells.  
 
Hero system is not D&D and Fantasy Hero characters are radically different from D&D characters.  It is a lot easier to build a hybrid character in Hero than it is in any D&D based system.  The fact of the matter is that wizards benefit from free equipment just as much as warriors.  
 

When the Danger International book came out, I started a horror game. The characters were investigators of a multitude of backgrounds dealing from the standard monster to lovecraftian issues. Game is still going on using 5th edition Hero.