tesuji

writing out the "dont use the rules" part doesn't make it any less not using the rules. :-) For instance, if i decided i wanted negative 5 body to be dead, i could either not use the book rule and do my own or i could try to pretend i am using the book rules and then claim i have an area triggered worldwide area transform of 100d6 that kicks in whenever someone reachs -5 body to turn dieing to dead (or maybe that could be an invisible rka NND does body) and then claim that BY THE RULES -5 body is dead... i reckon. it seems simpler to just admit... i did not like the way the rules worker so i changed it.

[/b] Here we are both in agreement, and there seem to be others who have posted such as well. The answer, it seems, is to not use the rules and system and fiat for better results. However, sometimes i like to have the system actually work and produce the results i want for the genre , as opposed to just deciding to use the system anyway and then fiat it when it doesn't. So i did some work a ways back. i did not like the suggested remove stun idea since it courses thru so much of the system underpinnings. As an alternative, when i was working on stats for my fourth FH game, i decided to adjust the character stun-body rations, to try and make "out of body" be reached about the same time as "out of stun" in order to make the ratio of KO vs dying to be about 50%. The rule i have figured was to have base stun = .5str+.5con+2xbody as the starting fig. i was also going to make stun bought individually cost on 1/2 pt per. This would make a character with say 15's in body, con and syt start the game with 45 stun (3xhis body) and be able to buy more stun cheaply, so the 4x level would be easily attainable. Naturally, tough fighter types would likely want to go even higher. (it was my hope that the increased stun would also help reing in the fantasy EB Ko as well and make alternative attacks more attractive.) In theory and some small experimentation this seemed to address some of the hero fantasy translation issues. unfortunately the game never materialized so i did not get a chance to test it fully. Obviously they do. However, in my experience and my reading, they are very rare. Only a couple fantasy novels i have read have bothered with the subject. The vast majority do not. Even Steve long noted that for fantasy genre this might not be apropos in HERO5. Certainly, if the game you are running is intended to represent this, then the current system rule of KO most enemies then slit their unconscious throats is fine and should work well for you. I just find there to be more games than that one type that i wish to run... matter of fact, i dont find that type particularly beneficial to the game as, to my eyes at least, it limits some of the more "traditional" character types. YMMV

[/b] I ended up with a good number of wounds but rarely anyone dead or dying on their own. I do not run reailty games. I tend to run fantasy games, superhero games, scifi games and even some spy games, tho often they are merged in with one of the above. In the books, comics and novels of those four genres... superheroes is the only one where it is COMMON for the enemy to be KOed (exception, the infrequent minion to be interrogated). In fantasy, spy and scifi books, novels, and movies i am aware of the typical effect (by a large preponderance) is once the enemy goes down, he is "dead" or at least dying. At that point no further care needs to be taken. The "walk around the eneies CDGing the enemies quickly so they do not get bacl up within a few minutes or maybe even seconds" was all too common in my FH games. (In supers it was tie them up.) I have so rarely seen time spent on such acyivites in the books, movies and novels of these genres. However, if i ever do get round to running a game which tries to represent reality to that degree and which does not try to emulate the genres of fantasy, scifi, supers, or such, its good to know HERO system covers that. Ok, yet in HERO instead the "best course" typically is to hit them one more time, or else there is a good likelihood they will just get back up in a few seconds, so maybe the reality side isn't covered that well after all. I alwats used hit locations for my fantasy games. i think it may have even exacerbated the issue. in my experience it tends to stack the heros attacks into the chest or mid-range targets producing most typically a 3-1 ratio between stun and body damage done. After you apply a limited amount of armor, that ratio quickly dropped to around 4-1. (Remember that armor comes off KA body but the stunx is figured based on full body before defense. So a 7 body attack against 3 DEF with 3 PD results in a chest wound causing 4 body and 15 stun.) Extremely few of my NPCs, and iirc few of the FH sample characters at 150 pts, had that ration of stun vs body, and so they typically ran out of stun before running out of body. Interestingly enough, the issue of too frequent KO follow by CDG was significant enough or notable enough that Long even made mention of it in HERO5 BBB, citing it as an example of a benefit of ingoring stun entirely for a campaign in HERO5 254 sidebar item 7. "Doe some genres, such as fantasy, you can ignore stun damage altogether without negatively affecting the game. this also saves the characters from having to engage in the highly unheroic act of administering CDG to every unconscious opponent when the fight ends." I would hope that, since your game does not turn out that way, that you passed on your experience and how to's to Steve so he could revise this for fantasy hero.

In the three different Fh games i ran using FH 4th rules, 90% of the fatalities came after the target was knocked out due to loss of stun and was CDGed while laying unconscious. IIRC, there is a mention in the HERO5 core rules about possibly dropping stun in fantasy to avoid the super-hero-esque knockouts.

IIRC, in HERo5, there is a mention of giving armor a separate DCv penalty on top of or in place of encumbrance. It was mentioned, i think, in the encumbrance rules. It seemed to recognize that the new weight based rules would not cover well the notion of the heavier armors. As an additional element, any GEAR that causes balance problems might ought to be accounted for in CP. It may be that the problem is the armor being off the chart so to speak. When comparing the plate armor guy and the swashbuckler guy we see the swashbuckler basing his defense on CV and speeed and combat skills... all of which are paid for in cp, while the tank is basing his on armor which is bought off the table. So, given the armor is basically an EXTRA i would expect it to cause imbalances unless its advantages were offset by its disadvantages to make it a net zero sum. However, much equipment is not zero sum... swords are not zero sum, neither are bows, neither is armor. So, one approach might well be to raise starting points to allow armor and weapons and such to be purchased as gear on the cp scale.

First off, i would not go with any lim at all unless it was likely to produce a limit in play. For this to be an issue hardly at all, it would need to meet both of the following: 1. The total charges must be limiting so that this doesn't turn into "had more than i needed of any of them but preselected how much more at start." You would need to frequently run out of needed ammo. 2. the rounds would need to be noiceably different, serving different functions. An example might be an HE round, an Ap round and a gas round. This means that even though you have an attack, it might not be a good choice. When building the power, you would not buy charges for the slots at all. you would use the "charges on the MP option and buy a total set of charges for the MP. Then you would purchase this "set at base" lim on the reserve as well. In my experience with limited change MP, pricing them out at -1/4 is usually correct. So for example... MP 60 ap +1/4 32c for entire MP -1/4 set charges at base = 60 ap slot-1 8d6 EXP slot-2 8d6 AP slot-3 4d6 NND AOE this looks about right at 60 for pool and 18 for slots at 78 ap. if it was 64c on the MP, I probably would set the base lim at -0, unless i foresaw a lot of campaign sessions where he would be unable to reload for long enough to make 21 charges per ammo not sufficient.

[/b] Oh my god! Don't get me started! I don't think anyone is forgetting about it. You are simply hitting one of the "common sense" areas that keeps HERo from being a computer game and keeps it being an RPG. Indeed! But what is wrong is the apparent lack of a GM. Consider the following as potential character main attacks. 12d6 EB 4d6 Eb with 4 levels of AP. Now both cost 60 ap but they obviously have different effectivenesses. The latter would be practically useless, since the frequency of double hardened defense much less triple or quadruple hardened defenses is so low to make the attack useless, not to mention its low dc. This is where the Gm should step in and say "you know, paying that much for counter hardness wont show up for this campaign often enough to make that worth the value.. " Similarly, in your example, the Gm should step in and tell your guy "you know, it will be so rare that 125 shots will ever run out before you get to reload, that buying the extra doubling is really not going to show up in play." Frankly, if the guy wanted to keep the 250 charges because he is trying to emulate the real world gun or somesuch, I would think a reasonable Gm would give it to him for +1/2... the extra charges being SFX... they will never get used anyway. Of course, all this changes if we are talking autofire, but if 0 end is +1/2, we ain't talking autofire. The increased values beyond +1/2 are only going to be relevent and worth anything for autofire attacks, if then, so the reasonable Gm would not charge 60 for the 250c. Thats why we have GMs... to be reasonable people. Its not an error. For the cases where 125c vs 250c will matter, its probably right spot on. These cases, however, are almost certainly going to mean AUTOFIRE. In all the other cases, if the player wants to be "unreasonable" the Gm should stpe in and lend a helping hand. I mean, seriously, would you charge him 60 ap for the 250c or leave it at 45 ap? Remember the GM sense group: Common sense, dramatic sense, and sense of balance and fairness. Without these, you are playing blind. :-)

[/b] Absolutely, which still leaves what i said standing fine. you are simply wrong, or citing a house rule. In HERO5, you can place charges for each slot, whether advantage or lim OR you can put charages on the multipower pool (reducing the pool cost but limiting the total uses of the MP) OR you can do both. All are legal and supported within the rules. There is even a section IIRC under multipowers which specifically discusses these options. Thanks.

I weigh in on the side of at that point its just FX. 64 charges or 0 end is a non-issue in enough cases to make them functionally equivalent, which is why they cost the same. Heck for most superhero games, my charges for powers usually topped at +0 (8 charge clips, 4 clips each = rarely needing to chaneg clip in a fight and able to handle four fights without reloading) although on occasion it did get to +1/4 (12 round clips with 8 clips or 8 round clips with around 16 clips) and i cannot recall enough times to fill a hand that I ever ran out. While 0 end is IN THEORY better than 64 charges, in practice it will play the same, except for the once in a great while special scenarios which basically occur barely often enough to be FX. Now, FWIW, i prefer as game design for CHARGES to be just a limit, a flat restriction on "uses per day" and let you buy 0 end yourself instead of having it included, but thats me being anal cuz i don't like advantages or limitations that "go both ways" as a design element. If you want to find problems with the charges system, it doesn't happen at the +1/2 stage... it happens at the +0 stage where four 8 round clips is enough to handle most fights with next to no "flaw" to offset the 0 end used... it happens when fuel charges are used for almost anything... it used to be continuous charges but fuel charges seem to outdo them now... and it may happen in multipowers where charges are bought for the slots producing a lot of shots for little points. I think i would look at these other issues before i worried too much about 0 end vs 33++ charges... but again, thats just me being anal.

Bulk != value. Not meant to slam hero, but IMX overall size doesn't make for better... gaming. I have plopped down $32 for a 300 page book and $25 for a 400 page book and gotten both home and within half a day realized the 400 page book was nigh on useless and filled with padding and the 200 page book was marvelous and sparking new ideas and games right away. The 400 page book is now just filler on my shelf while the 200 pager is a campaign in progress. lean and mean has a great deal of merit IMO.

IIRC the most traditional approach would be to toss this under LOCKOUT =1/2 as a broad sweeping catch all for a power which prevents other useful powers from being used. A less traditional approach might be to write this as a physical limitation for the character... allowing a frequency/severity assessment, rather than a power limitation... after all its not the POWER that is being limited, just what the character can do while the power is in use. The defense power will never be unavailable, the hero can always use it, any time he chooses, so it doesn't appear that the defense power is limited at all. The limit is that the character cannot choose certain other options. So it smells a lot like a physical limitation or at best (pointswise) a limitation on other powers that they cannot be used while this power is working. Again, though, when assessing the value it really depends on what this power is. if this is a power that would not be useful in combat, then the "cannot make attacks" is trivial.

Ok first off, the player has shown you in play the scope of his disad. Take that at its face value. Now, revisit the disad and how it was priced, specifically the FREQUENCY. With this new definition it seems to me to definitely fit into rare or uncommon and not common. if you gave him common or he took common, exmplain your misunderstanding and adjust the points. Give him a chance between games to refigure the points. Then, when it does come up in game, its no longer a roleplaying issue. if he decides to act against the CVK, you tell him to make an ego roll as defined in the lim. Psych lim is a lim because when the character decides to go against it he runs into a case of maybe he can, maybe he cannot based on a die roll. The drawback is loss of control of your character's actions. Get the scope defined, which has apparently now happened, assign proper value and simply enforce the game mechanics described in the trait. For my money, I would have made him make an ego roll at the time with DC based on the strength of the lim, if he made it fine, if not then i run his character for a few phases until thelife and death threat was over. Then, after the session, we discuss this issue and if his view of the disad disagrees with the points he took, I give him the opportunity to revalue the disad. These issues are always going to occur at various times when the loan sharking chargen pays you points ahead of time for problems that might come up later. So you just need to handle them consistently and smoothly IN PLAY TIME and get the "after the speedbump" discussion and solution stalled until later on after PLAY TIME so it doesn't disrupt the game.

Only if your character was noticably and significantly less effective in that scene because he did not have an RKA. The notion that his RKA did not work... is not sufficient... his RKA not working AND that causing him to be less successful is required.

[/b] My observation would be that there is a difference between a limitation always applying and it always producing significant impact, providing a significant reduction. Firstly, i rarely see PCs taking these "always applies" drawbacks, though of course some do. Secondly, in many cases, the drawback is is part counteredby something else. For example, it is not uncommon to see a character with a reduced stun multiplier (although that itself is rare) have a second attack that is just fine, like maybe an EB, and use the RKA against targets that don't take stun... wall busting, entangle busting, and the like, while reserving the Eb for the guys subject to stun. An RKA that does less stun would only be a drawback when it dropped the enemy slower, taking more shots, not everytime it was fired. There is a big difference in the two. The big size and DCV is more often going to be a problem, and in cases where that matters, it should award points, luck points in this system. There will obviously be cases where it really doesn't matter, with enemies using area attacks or if he just simply did not become a target that got hit a lot. Against PSi for example, his DCV would likely be of little import, depending on who were the opposition. It shouldn't be any more difficult to assess these limitations using hindsight than the less frequent ones, and there are still going to be cases where these don't provide meaningful problems, so these just seem to me to be possibly the high frequency end of the curve and not really a cause for exception. YMMV Getting less stun thru is not limiting if you take out the enemy withy body loss as quickly as you would for stun loss, its not against entangles, force walls, constructs, vehicles, or any character with high stun low body, and so on. It wont be limiting much at all if the character has an EB alongside it in a MP slot that gives him one preferred shot for "stun guys" and another "preferred shot" for immune to stun guys. (I have seen people try the Eb slot and RKA does no stun for -3/4 (is that right?) before to give themselves a cheap body buster. The DCV and size one is going to be more often a factor, though i see this rarely for PCs. However, again, its not going to reduce the effectiveness in every scenario significantly. Against mentalists, against area guys, or in scenarios where he simply is not a target this wont necessarily be an issue of significance at all. It will occur more often than other flaws, and the luck point rewards being more frequent might well make this particular flavor of limitation more popular. Personally, i would not be upset at all if the "major concern" for this notion remains "players too often taking flaws that come up very often" as a departure from the other end more normally encountered "players too often hunting for and taking lims they hope wont ever seriously impact them in play." If it makes meaningful limitations more appealing to players than trivial ones, thats not a bad thing IMO. YMMV :-)

Actually, my thought was to base the rewards on the overall assessment of the reduction in effectiveness of the character in the scene. One power may be completely shut down but how bad did that impact his ability to affect the enemy? if my firebolt is useless but i use my lightning bolt ultra slot instead to full effect, there was little if any detriment. A fairly broad assessment... character performance reduced by 25-33%, character performance cut in half by half, character nearly useless, eyc for 1-3 points. Maybe a couple of examples... HawkLad has just finished wiping out the guards on the roof and knows the battle has just proceeded downstaira as he can hear the telltale explosions that typically follow his teammates. He could fly down the elevator shaft and be there in 2 actions but because he is claustrophobix he flies around the side of the building and down and in through the window, which ends up taking four phases. At the end of the combat the Gm looks at it, sees the whole combat lasted 12 phases and figures 2 extra lost phases out of of 10 possible combat phases is about 20% so he gives HawkLad 1 luck point. In another battle, Hawklad's flaming sword (ED HKA) is broken early in the conflict. So he has to resort to using his own claws. (PD HKA) for the majority of the fight. Since the claws are noticeably weaker (#d6K vs 4d6K) and the bad guys have more PD than ED and the scenario was basically solved by beating up he super villains, hawklad did not do well at all, eyeballing him as half as effective as the other characters or easily half as effective as he normally is... so he awards two luck points. *************** By basing it on in game impact that was just witnessed, the GM avoids having to guess/decide.commit to the frequency and severity of these things beofre play begins, and can simply look at what has already occured and give out appropriate rewards.

for your consideration... Ponder using hero with the following variant rules in a superhero game... 1. limitations do not give you back character points by reducing the powers cost. All powers cost in RP = their active point cost. 2. All character disads do not give you back points either. 3. Start with 350 base points. 4. Characters still define flaws and disads as they would normally, with whatever specifics they desire as long as the Gm approves. 5. At the end of any scene in which a character was adversely affected by his chosen power limitations or disadvantages to a significant level (say 20% reduction or more in effectiveness) the Gm will reward that player with a LUCK POINT. (A luck point is just like a point of luck rolled that you hold onto and use when you see fit for things like rerolls and the like.) The amount of luck points will vary based on the degree of impact it had on the character for that scene, probably between 1-3 luck points. Under this system there is no "loan shark" system (you get points up front to spend but the GM hurts your character later on to may you pay for the points you got extra) of pay then pay. There is no foresight or predictability or even guesswork in limitation values... no wondering how often intense magnetic fields will appear... the gain from the limitation or disadvantage is related directly with HINDSIGHT to the problems the trait CREATED (past tense as in "we just saw this happen.") Charges rewards you with luck points when you actually run out of charges in a combat and have to go without for a scene or part of a scene. (heck, even then if all it does is make you switch t your AP arrows instead of your EB arrows, maybe not worth much then.) Extra time doesn't gain you anything on a power you always use out of combat sitting in an easy chair. It will reward you if and only if that extra time actually causes you trouble in a game. just a wierd though. i call it "no pain, no gain flaws"

One thought would be to have a "human" package deal or deals. Basically, figure out what traits humans have that make them distinct from the other races... the default does not have to be "humans lack distinction". Example the first: In this world humans are known for their communities and ability to make communities and relationships everywhere they go as opposed to the other races who tend to be zenophobic. Humans could have package deals including bonuses to charisma (er presence), bonuses with social skills (probably skill levels) and maybe even linguist as an attribute showing they take to the other races languages well, also facilitating interaction. In this type of campaign, the human figures would be the glue that holds together diverse groups. Example the second: In this world there are many different groups of man, each with its own strong cultural ties. The various package deals for "man" give you the cultural experience and training. The Rovers of the Plains might get packages with lots of riding, warfare, archery and basic plundering traits to represent their "takes from those who make" and "if you cannot keep it it wasn't yours in the first place" pillaging society training. meanwhile, the Hillmen of the peaks might have climbing, mining, and crafts common to their package deals. In thiese cases, "man" or different groups of men could have as strong a cultural impact and as diverse a cultural bias as elves and dwarves.

yeah, buying off the non-prof penalties will serve the purpose and be much cheaper than 30 pts.

As stated, it varies. 9mm clips easily run int 15 round or so clips. 10mm mags often stop at 10 or so. IIRC by law since 94, new magazines of greater than 10 capacity for handguns are illegal (though probably allowed for police and older clips are grandfathered) so it would not be out of place to find a lot of 10 round mags as common.

I would make "reflect melee attacks" another category to buy for MD, pricing it at about +20 points.. It expands the scope of the power, which attacks can be reflected without increasing the capability... each reflection attempt is only stopping one attack, you just chose a different attack. It does not seem any more significant a increase in scope than say the difference between thrown weapons only and all ranged attacks (limited by fx.) Since bricks are not more vulnerable to punches than energy balsters are to their energy blasts, the deflection angle seems not to be a problem issue either. besides, block is free, so all we are really talking about here is adding reflection to block... the 'missile deflection" for melee is already there in block. this really doesn't seem like some uber ability needing massive constructions.

a quick note to nightshade... the MIDNIGHT sourcebook/worldbook out for d20 presents a new campaign "epic fantasy in the age of shadow" and has only the barbarian, fighter and rogue from the core books with all other classes replaced. it seems like a somewhat different magic system, but i only took a few minutes in my flgs to look it over. I have heard good things about it but have no use for it right now myself.

Failed my will save, but then due to the indomitable will feat, got a reroll and made it. Thanks for the unique perspective sharing there Anotherskip. Happy holiday.

The key is... all those elements of how long does it take the villain to recover... how dlong does it take his allies to arrive... how long does it take to make the bomb, how long does it take to get from the bad guys base to our home base to build the bomb oir wherevere those elements are that we need to go to... are all determined by the GM when he assigns values to them. The "time is critical" elements are determined by the G when he scripts the setting and scenario, not by the player character's movement rate. Anyway, for me, those types of scenario drama moments are not something i arrive at by "putting things where they should be" and then running the math. The "where things should be" includes will speed and time be important to this scenario, and dont exist as a separate entity. it never appears to me in comics that its the actual MPH a hero travels that is the determining element between win and loss or even necessarily the hardship. if the scene calls for "can he get there in time" drama, the mcguffin is far enough away for that to be the case. if "is he fast enough" is not the drama of the week, the events are closely linked enough to make travel time not an issue. YMMV. BTW, i run a little darker than 4 color, more like dark xman level. Definitely not street level whens a normal pistol is any real threat to a super tho. for lower powered games, where normal cars and stuff is a likely mode of travel, where really fast flight would be out of place, i wouldn't be looking to allow MS for its usual price at all.

When i brought new players in, i used to do some conversion work for them... first, i rewrote some charts to use meters and not inches. Having the in game units represent something real is just one less heroism they gotta put up with. second, i agree with the inversions for the die rolls. it just seems easier to grasp for a die roll plus trait beating dc to be understood than a calculation based on opposed values.. third, the of course, you will be doing a lot of the designing, especially if there is a miz of old and new. fourth, make up a number of sample characters, some rather straightforward but fully playable and others a little more complex. build them from the mindset of "they may just want to play it", "they may want to use it as a template and modify it" AND they may use it to see how to do things" perspectives. hope it goes well.

In real life, you are dead spot on. In a comic book, I don't agree. Look at it this way... say you have one character who spent for megascale a few points and got the ability to cross town in a minute, while another character wil take 30 minutes or perhaps 15 minutes because he spent those 3 cp on say a photography skill. With a typical superhero engagement taking 20 seconds to a minutes, that difference may seem significant from a non-0scripted real world sense. Nut in practice how many times with all the players sitting there is the "alarm goes off, bank robbery on 5th street?" or whatever "crisis we were not expecting" scenarios are you gonna look at the 15 minute player and tell him "your character gets there 15 minutes after the others do, do you wanna go get drinks while we run the fight?" or, is it more likely that by coincidence, his character will be scripted to be in the vicinity, closer to the action so that he will arrive in time to participate in the evening's festivities? Spidey doesn't have the ability to travel as fast as many of the heroes in the comics, but he gets to the trouble often enough. Villains get away for plenty of reasons but rarely is one of them "I out raced the superhero"... more often it being a diversion or a case of a movement ability the hero lacks... not a speed issue. At least, from most of my comic reads, thats how i recall things. I never saw an issue of spidey where the issue was him swinging across town while faster supers handled the bad guys. Net result, IMO, the significance **in the scenes run in an RPG/comic** of faster strategic speed seems minimal at best. As i commented earlier on a different subject, in the course of say a year in "the real world of the comic" there might have been a dozens of situations in which the hero did not arrive in time and there was basically no event... but those are normally not the ones highlighted and put "on stage" to show in the comics (to run as a session in the rpg.) The exception is of course the "mystery, find the villains before they strike again" episodes but those cases hit everyone, regardless of strategic speed. perhaps your games, or the comics you read, are different. Regardless: keep in mind my preference would be for +5 pts for NCM to be x10 or x20, maybe x5 for some style games. I do not endorse the ultra cheap megascale with the cannot tell where i am going might smah into walls and kill myself limitation we have now.