Christopher R Taylor

your argument works against changing the weapon minimums just as much if the heroic characters are built with their equipment on the character sheet (which some folks do).

Yes, it makes them require less strength to do the same damage.  not exactly going to be a problem, is it?

Where I disagree is in the fact that that would be better than a counterstrike. That would be the perfect counterstrike, as no roll to hit is necessary. That would be a superhuman counterstriker, but an ordinary one, I favor a strike.

That's easy enough to modify

Have it require a roll (successful to hit roll), limit how often it can go off (or put a modifier on the hit roll by each successive counterstrike) and you've got a maneuver that doesn't require a trigger, functions the way people figure a counterstrike ought to, but is limited to a reasonable martial arts function.

The thing is, creating the maneuvers doesn't really quite do what I had in mind.

All this does is simulate each maneuver in combat through the powers, which is fine, but martial Arts functions as a power framework: its specifically built to be cheaper to better simulate a specific set of limited actions with a tight concept.  I think we need a new power framework that works for martial arts -- and for other structures such as "skill trees" and related magic systems.

In a perfect simulationist game, exceeding your target's DCV would add to damage to reflect this, and any maneuver/modifier that adds to accuracy (with bows, guns, etc) should also add to damage to reflect a "better" hit. I've played a few games like that, and they're usually a PITA, so I'm not proposing we add that to Hero.

Yeah while intellectually I like that idea, its way too much work and too complicated to be worthwhile.

I prorate my explosions to the dice to make life easier for the math; a 6d6 blast can have 3m (-2d6/m), 6m (-1d6/m), 12m (-1d6/2m), etc.  Odd shaped radii is just asking for trouble.

Damage shield does fine for a counterstrike, just build an attack that the counterstrike consists of with a damage shield so it goes off immediately.  Its just going to be spendy.

OK that makes an even bigger problem because then you can't port between genres or games.  Now each game has its own different ruleset.

And supers just exaggerates the problem; its still an issue if you wanted the guy that can lift a horse.  Now he can lift a goat.

I built 0 cost martial arts maneuvers for my fantasy hero campaign for everyone to use if they wanted.  Sure, you don't hit as hard or accurately, but you can try any of the maneuvers.   That seems like a good place to start: how to build the very basics.

This is probably going to be more expensive in the long run but worth considering at least.  Counterstrike was brought up as a real poor build in the present Martial Arts system and I agree, but making it cost effective is challenging, at best.  Which is why I think a framework is the way to go more than just builds.  Something that ties it all together as a tight concept separate from other power structures (and safe from certain builds such as links etc) and makes a more universal answer than simply martial arts.

Oh, and you need Usable as an attack on that throw maneuver!

But... does anyone else feel a bit like a heretic tearing down one of Aaron Allston's biggest contributions to Hero rules?

If you're talking about the Captain America trilogy, Winter Soldier featured two protracted fights between Cap and the Soldier, who while arguably more of a victim than a villain, definitely filled the ruthless front-line antagonist role, and is pretty darn super. And Cap had no hand in creating the main conflict of that movie.

I agree, there have been exceptions but for the most part, the battles have been hero vs mooks.  Loki was in the Avengers, but wasn't really a combatant so much as a mastermind - which again, he should be but it was just monsters vs heroes.  All three of the Iron Man movies were caused by Iron man - if he hadn't been there none of that would have happened.  The third one had a supervillain (a crappy one, but super) and the first kind of did with Stane wearing armor, but for the most part its not quite the same as you'd think of in a Champions battle.

Axes are pretty much the ultimate weapon, they're just a bit less easy to use than a sword.  Hammers are a close second, mostly because you can hit someone with the side and its almost as effective as a straight on blow.

Swords are just cooler, have that cruciform look, and are easier to damage with (larger area).  Knights used two handed weapons too: spear, halberd, etc. 

Changing strength minimums is a matter of adjusting one column on a chart.

Changing the strength stat means rebuilding every single character you've ever made and everyone else has ever made to match up with the redefined values for strength.  

No, Hulk, you don't lift 100 tons any more, the new chart says 72.573.  And your INT, based on that STR chart as a benchmark?  Its lower now too.  Rebuy.

I hate to repeat myself but there's a difference between "florentine" style fighting with two blades (using one for defense, etc as described above) and using both weapons for offense at the same time as a primary technique.

Yo dawg I heard you like guns so I came up with a way to attach guns to your guns

I don't get that at all.  How is that more convenient or useful than just wearing a holster?  Adding all that weight to the front of your gun for what reason, exactly?

I saw Captain America Civil War and while it was good it does seem to underscores the fact that the series lacks real fights between superheroes and villains. 

 

I'm okay with that for Captain America, he was more about bad guys than supervillains, but you're right the movies in general have very much downplayed supervillains for mooks.  And almost every superhero movie is about how the alleged hero creates all the problems then solves them and poses for the cameras.  Its almost as if the writers cannot seem to conceive of there being any actual bad guys or heroes, only problems created by and dealt with by the alleged good guys.

The problem with APG and other methods of changing Hero baseline characteristics was already brought up; compatibility. 

 

That, and the other point people have brought up, that Strength is the benchmark that you determine values for other stats, based on brute lifting force and real life experience.  Vary that and it throws all the other stats out of whack.  Too big a change for too little value when you can just alter strength minima to a more reasonable level.  I mean, seriously, you can't use a dagger properly unless you can dead lift 80kg over your head?

I played a lot of D&D and read the Dragon hardcore for a long time and you know how often dual wielding came up?

Never.  

People didn't do it because a big heavy weapon was always better.  People never used two weapons, they used a two-hander or a  shield and a sword.

It wasn't until 3rd edition came around and changed how it worked that dual wielding became a valid option - after video games popularized it.

Perhaps "Can't Be Haymakered" should be a limitation on some powers.  I don't know if it would come up often enough to rate a full -1/4 though.

 

Probably not, but "fixed" or something like that would cover it - must be used at full power, cannot be pushed or haymakered, etc.

While the word Haymaker implies using extra Strenght/Windup, it can totally include extra carefull aiming.

..

Yes, it is totally possible to haymaker with a Bow. Or a Firearm for that mater.

 

But in a Fantasy game its almost certainly also going to be using hit locations, which is what you're describing, so I'd suggest choosing between either option: haymaker to simulate a head hit or hit locations.  Using both would turn the bow into a howitzer: x2 +4DC attack.

I think it was a little bit rushed, and the font choice didn't have a good fantasy feel to it.  But overall, I though it delivered the goods very well and has all you'll need for a fantasy game

Page 41 of Fantasy Hero Complete has the Two Weapon Fighting skill, which mentions offsetting the penalty for multiple power attacks.

Personally I try to discourage two weapon fighting in my fantasy hero games because historically if it was ever done it was almost always just using the offhand as defense and an occasional attack while the other was a feint.  One weapon and a shield is a much better option.  Until video games started using "dual wield" it wasn't really a thing in fantasy for the most part*.  

*Being that this is the internet, someone will inevitably chime in with "but example x!!!!" which is why I said "for the most part" here.

Either a rule makes sense on its own merits, or it doesn't; the fact that "we've always done it that way" doesn't really concern me that much

Yeah, well the point wasn't "we should never change!!!" but rather "this has been part of a very successful solid game we love and play for every setting for decades."  That makes me pretty hesitant to make changes at a fundamental level to the rules just because it seems to work in one setting.  Make the stats do different stuff in different genres and its not a system that ports across genres any more.

I think the problem with marital arts is that they're a kludge.  They work pretty well but they're just pulled out of thin air.  We don't have a structure or design to build martial arts like a power framework or system.  There's a structure to build martial arts, but its not based on any other part of the hero system, so there's no clear method or way of understanding how to modify or create these maneuvers.  Want to put armor piercing on a fast strike?  There's a sort of workaround to do it but it was added on rather than an organic part of the rules.  

Which is why I've been calling for a power framework that is how martial arts are created - which would allow other, similar structures to be created as well such as spell systems and talent trees like some online games use.  This would make building alternate maneuvers and specific ideas into martial arts part of the hero rules rather than a tack-on, which is the way it feels now.

I see it as opposite.  Changing strength minimums is a matter of a very small adjustment on a list of weapons.  Changing the lift for characters is a complete shift in the established rules of Hero Games since it was first printed.

Yeah I like that one.

Yeah I dropped a lot of the strength minimums to lower levels than the official listed numbers for my Fantasy Hero campaign.