Brian Stanfield

Hi Ninja-Bear, There's a lot of stuff packed into your post. I don't want to misunderstand or misconstrue your points, so if I do let me know. It seems like much of what you write is rhetorical summaries of what's been said in a variety of posts. I'm going to take them up in smaller chunks. This is true if you have a GM and a group to learn with. Otherwise, you kinda do have to learn everything at once in order to begin to figure out how to set everything to play a game of some sort. My point: HERO System is generic and universal, so anyone picking up the 6e rules has to make a ton of decisions to even begin the process of figuring out which rules to apply and which to ignore. HERO is great for that type of flexibility, but it's only useful for people who already know the rules fairly well. The Completes aren't necessarily too hard to learn, but they still don't give a newbie many quidelines on how to make their setting, magic/Powers, DC caps, etc. These come from experience, which a rule book just cannot give. I think mosts of us here learned the game in 1e or 2e, and yes it is indeed easier. The games that I frequently cite are 3e games. I'm not looking to reprint anything here. I'm looking to reboot the 3e games that I (and I'm thinking we) loved. I don't want to present them as if they were 2e (actually, 3e) games. You're right: that is really confusing. Instead, I want to update them to 6e, but with all the fat trimmed off so the games are trim, and offer all of the missing elements that today's rulebooks/toolkits/genre books don't include: setting and adventures/campaign ideas baked into the rules as they are presented. By now you're familiar with what I mean: don't present all the rules and then suggest that they can be tweaked to maybe play in a modern action genre. Instead, present the rules as that genre requires. For example, I don't need to present all the Focus limitations on Powers when all we are talking about are guns. I'll just present guns and a brief description of what they do. If you drop it, or are disarmed, we don't need to debate the nature of the Focus, if it fits in with this particular kind of disarm, and all the other various and sundry arguments we see on the Forums all the time. This trimmed down approach will work in any genre, but I simply suggested this one in particular based on the fact that plans for a reboot of Danger International seem to have fizzled. I got my hopes up, and I'd like to see it work. I could pick any genre, I just happened to pick this one. Yeah, I've given up on the "lite" version of the rules. Admittedly, I was biased because I learned to play GURPS through their 32 page rules-lite PDF. It seemed like a great idea, but I don't think it works in the generic and universal HERO System because of the need for the Powers and Modifiers in the core rules. GURPS assumes you'll have their genre guides for whatever you want to play, and probably a GM to shepherd you. HERO doesn't assume this, so doesn't try to present a HERO Lite booklet. Probably for the best. Trying to reduce the rules yet still presenting them as generic and universal is just the wrong approach (I think). The support for 6e is what I'm trying to emphasize here. There's plenty of supporting material already out there for 6e: so many settings and genre books and other resource books that I can't count them all off the top of my head. It's the wrong kind of support. It's the same model as 5e, which didn't exactly kill in the marketplace either. So what kind of support does 6e need? That's what my inquiry is about. I think a one-book game is a great idea, a game "built with the HERO System," as all the 3e games used to say. Except this time it'll be advertised as "built with HERO System 6e." The supporting material is already out there: genre books, new rules, skills and equipment and all sorts of stuff. I'd love for people to be drawn to them, but not be required to have them in order to play. By now I think my position on this is clear. Maybe 6e needs better setting books, as I suggested earlier, as an alternative to one-book games. Maybe each setting book would take the place of a one-book game by falling back on a genre book (such as Fantasy HERO) and the toolbox to cover all the possibilities, and then dialing everything in for a very specific kind of approach to the genre. I'm good with that as an approach too, but it hasn't been done either. So I'm with you: we need better support for 6e, but it needs to be better than splatting out another setting, or villains book, or Advanced Players Guide III. Those have all been done, and they don't sell to anyone other than us who already love the game. As for being a useful approach to drawing in new players to learn the system, or acting as a gateway to HERO System at large, all I can say is that what DOJ is doing now isn't achieving that. Something new must be tried if it's not going to die out with our rapidly aging generation. I don't know what the demographics are for HERO System, but I don't think it's trending downward in the age bracket. I'm all for other people coming up with something better. More power to whoever does it. But it cannot be more of the same. That's already been done for the past 20 years, and it's dying out. More of the same will just leave more inventory to liquidate when DOJ finally goes bankrupt. I don't think my approach is the inevitable savior for the HERO System. But I am familiar with what's working in the marketplace outside of D&D. I can tell you that FLGSs are running away from Pathfinder because it is releasing everything on PDF. I've been in GAMA trade meetings where they point out that game specifically as the quickest and easiest way to both clear the shelves for inventory that actually sells, and for finding material that actually supports FLGSs. That model won't work in gameshops for much longer. What does seem to work bypasses the FLGSs altogether. As I mentioned above, Powered by the Apocalypse is an ideal model, and it is immensely popular. There are something like 15 or more games based on that system, and they all are inexpensive to produce, have great fanbases, and have great showings at conventions and such because they are quick and easy to learn. Seems like something DOJ could be copying if they really want to promote HERO System as the toolbox that lets people build their own games. Offer a handful of games, such as Action HERO, as examples of what can be done. Draw people in with some convention presence, and maybe some clever advertising (this was touched on waaaay upthread). But we won't know if "we" don't try. No reason it can't be a group effort, at least for the brainstorming part of the effort, which is of course the point of my original post. Thanks for the feedback. I hope I understood your points correctly.

I just had a sit-down with my buddy who has been going with me to Origins the last 4 years, and he's the one who brought up the virus issue. It hadn't even registered in my mind yet, but he's right for me to worry. We aging infirms need to stick together. Maybe we should start our own convention, and reserve an entire hospital floor so we can play worry-free!

Yeah, I was just finishing my first major round of chemo last year, and I took a mask to the convention just in case. All those ripe nerds (my people!) could have killed me at any moment with their . . . lovely selves.

I'm sorry that I'll miss your games this year. Between having cancer, and fear that the coronavirus will potentially be active by June, I'm just not willing to risk my health in a convention of thousands and thousands of people! Sounds odd, but I have to plan for these sorts of problems now. I encourage everyone to try your games though! And I'll see you next year.

I know where you stand on the wall of text with the Powers in later editions, so I'm not going to try to argue that with you. Really, there is no argument, but I really do love all the examples and edge cases in the 6e rules because they are great teaching tools. Anyway, my goal isn't to rewrite or simplify the Powers section. It's all been done already -- choose your edition. My goal is to present a game (a non-supers game) where all these decisions have already been made. Sure I can present the Powers, even in simplified form, and say "go make your weapons." I'd rather do all that work for a new player instead, and simply let them choose from a list of pre-built stuff. The reason I chose a modern espionage-type genre is because there is absolutely no need for Powers in that genre, at least to begin. If they want to fiddle with stuff and add new things, they can get the toolbox and learn all the details that allow the to infinitely modify their game. But I don't feel the need to give them the source code in order to create a program. I'll give them the program, ready to go, and offer them the opportunity for the source code later. Or Spanish, or whatever analogy you prefer. 🤔

Thanks Doc, but it was definitely me. But my experience is exactly like yours, except it's with 6e. I had a great experience with the 2e/3e game, and picked it up really quickly, but someone else was the GM. I didn't see the game again until 6e, and you can imagine how my head exploded! I didn't even know the game still existed, to be honest, and was so happy it had survived, albeit on life support. So I came into 6e even after it was out of print, and worked for a year to find reasonably priced 6e paper copies. In the meantime I read the PDFs many times. And some of the other books too, including Fantasy HERO (my favorite). I wanted to run a FH campaign, but there was no way I felt ready for that! So yes, I've been studying the rules for a few years now. No, they aren't all that different, but there are just so many rules additions. But also plenty of explanations, which I'm always appreciative of. When Fantasy HERO Complete came out, I was convinced that it was the answer to my prayers. I learned that, unfortunately, it's not really "complete," if complete mean "ready to run." I convinced my old gaming buddy (from D&D) to sit down and play it with me. And then I discovered just what a buzz saw the rules are for new eyes. I started a discussion about this problem, and realized I wasn't alone. We couldn't even agree on which setting to use, and then on power levels and all that sort of stuff. He had no idea what that all entailed anyway. But when character creation was really the first stumbling block, I realized that the presentation wasn't the best. This is a long story, covered in what I linked, so I won't rehash it all here. This is why I started this thread.

That's funny; I considered rewriting the part where I said D&D is not a relevant comparison because I know it actually is relevant, but more from the standpoint that it can show some of what is going wrong for "us" and what's going right for "them." As you say, we can't duplicate what "they" do. They simply have a monstrous budget, a huge market share, and the benefit of being synonymous with RPGs to most people on the outside.

Yes, exactly. I mentioned the line of Powered by the Apocalypse books earlier as a fantastic model for what I'm thinking. There are so many PbtA games out there, and once someone learns one they've basically learned the formula for each game, although there are different applications of the rules for each game. You don't need to buy the Apocalypse World rules to play any of the other games, nor should you have to. But if you want to make a game that is powered by those rules, you can build it yourself based on the model, and even get the licensing to have it marketed as a PbtA game on their web site. Seems like a toolbox like HERO System could benefit from a similar approach. It actually did something like this in the '80s. It seems totally doable, and perhaps even in line with how the market is driven nowadays.

You're right, I did miss your point. To be fair, as far as I can see on looking back at your post, you didn't actually say anything about a module. It may have been implied, but if so I totally missed it. Sorry about that. So I've discussed this in a couple of my longer posts, and you may have overlooked them. It could be that modules are where the dials are set. I suggested it would have to be a bit more involved, perhaps as a setting book with all these things decided, and then a campaign and some adventures included. Either way, That's in line with one of my "not one-book game" options I suggested. As for the Action HERO game, remember, this comes primarily because High Rock Press never followed up on its announced reboot of Danger International. There's no reason it has to be this genre, but I was offering it as a model of something that hasn't been done in 30 years because, well, it hasn't been done in 30 years. Champions and Fantasy HERO have been done, many times, so there's no need to reboot them. As for not including the Powers, I mentioned that they will not be included, but they would be mentioned as the source for how the game is built, with lots of references to the appropriate rule books that would allow one to fiddle with the game. But there's no reason to include that wall of text in a game where they aren't even needed. So yes, there is the option of other books involved, but unlike today's model, there is not the necessity for other books. I'm all for people taking the leap to the entire toolbox, but that should come after learning how to play the game. Again, this is just my opinion, and it's a completely undocumented, though partially founded, hypothesis on my part. I may be entirely wrong. Even D&D nowadays requires multiple books, and so many new splat books, that it's become unwieldy for a new player. Hence their introduction of the D&D Basic box. But I really don't want to compare anything to D&D anymore, because that's just not a relevant comparison, given the market share they have. I'm looking for doing something different. I appreciate that they have lots of support material, and YouTube channels and live play podcasts and whatnot, but this again is a crazy amount of third-party support that HERO System will (probably) never have. Let me restate my original purpose: What is the least amount of material needed to make a game complete and ready to play in a single book? The Complete books aren't actually complete. The old 3e books of the games I mentioned were, so I'm looking to them for inspiration. I'm also using a modern adventure setting for the genre because it is easiest to simulate, and everyone is familiar with the source material, and the rules can be pared down quite a bit when we don't have to include Powers (or spells, etc.).

I agree that it's possible . . . for an experienced player who knows how to fiddle with the dials. We can build a game similar to 2e in build complexity, but I don't expect a new player to be able to do it. The Completes make almost all of the options available, so knowing which ones to include or exclude already presumes system mastery. I believe that anyone on these forums can do it, but that's not what this particular thread is about. 6e is in fact intimidating because if you don't know all the rules, then someone's going to pop open the book and tell you three different ways that you're wrong. Because those books are full of lots of applications and variations and whatnot. Not only are you now responsible for the core rules, but you need to understand all the options, which ones to include or not, and why, and also contend with other players who may have the books themselves. The Complete books are better, but they are still frameworks, not games. I say phooey too, but not to the toolbox. I say phooey to expecting new players to have to learn all the stuff right out of the gate. They need to ease into the game, but they need to actually have a game to play before they can ease into learning the complexities of the toolbox (i.e. system mastery) and make their own adjustments. So to run a game of 2e complexity requires someone to actually know how to build the game at 2e levels in the first place. So there's the solution, right? D&D actually has basic rules in a convenient box with some adventures and character sheets and stuff. You can start with very simple rules, and then expand into the larger books. HERO System doesn't have that. And we've all discussed the "rules lite" or "beginner box" thing to death, so I don't want to rehash that. We need to try a new alternative: try producing already-built games that aren't stripped down versions of the rules (basic, lite, beginner's box, or whatever) so that people don't have to learn all the rules in order to decide which ones to include or exclude. That's way beyond what a beginner should be expected to do, even if they are experienced in other systems.

So what you're saying is "Sorry, but not sorry," followed by calling me a liar? Please get a grip, and tone down your ad hominem attacks. Or really, just don't do that at all. Please. Rather than insult you, as you keep doing to me, I'm going to assume that you are familiar with the term "system mastery," which is what I keep saying as opposed to "learn the HERO System," which is what you keep saying. Because they mean two very different things. Either you're exaggerating my position to create a straw man (you are), or you're just being obstinate and don't want to interpret what I'm trying to say in a charitable fashion (seems like you are). Please stop either or both. I'm going to assume that you learned an earlier edition of the game as most of us did. It used to be easy to learn when it was fewer than 100 pages, and could be quickly learned in one sitting and mastered in a matter of several game sessions. 6e is not that, and most people simply cannot sit down and read two volumes of rules and master them, let alone learn them quickly. I'm not exaggerating when I say that I still haven't mastered 6e. I'm competent in it, but jumping from 3e to 6e for me is like learning a different game in many, many ways. Why would I expect anyone new to the system to be able to master the rules in any short amount of time? Especially as adults with very little free time to devote to this sort of activity? Let me offer a non-hypothetical, non-exaggerated example. I've been playing GURPS for almost two years now with a group of guys who can only meet once a month. I participated pretty regularly until I got cancer a year ago and had to take a couple of sessions off while I dealt with chemotherapy. Before the first game session, I looked up GURPS online and found their 4e GURPS Lite PDF, which they offer for free and offers a wonderful overview in 32 pages. I felt ready to play the game with other players who know what they're doing and can help me along. But there are half a dozen other genre books that I need to really learn what we're doing, along with their two core rulebooks. We shifted from fantasy to Traveller at one point, so I had to read and learn several other books entirely (which I didn't). I "learned" the basic rules enough to play, but I am not even close to "knowing" the rules, let alone have any sense of mastery of them. If they told me that I had to run a game next week, I'd quit. I'm not competent enough to create a game in GURPS that is playable. I wouldn't even know how to start. And no, I'm not exaggerating and certainly am not lying. You're not an outlier here. You're on a forum with a whole lot of people who love the toolkit as well. But I think maybe it would be best not to confuse your love of the toolkit for what new people not on this forum want to, or can learn. I love the toolkit too, but I'm certainly not going to teach it all to my new players. And I certainly don't expect them to build a game in order to play it the first time. Again, that's graduate level HEROdom. I'm looking for a different model that people can learn quickly and easily in a weekend. To go back to Perhaps you have. It looks like maybe you're looking for a different discussion. This isn't a discussion about why we love building games. I love the two volumes of 6e, and I love fiddling with it on the forums here. But it's unwieldy for beginners, let alone being out of print! Champions/Fantasy HERO Complete are attempts to condense things down to manageable levels for newbies (not us), but they still aren't games yet, only rules for building games. That distinction is what this thread is about, and how a new book could be presented as a game as opposed to a set of rules for building games. For example, you're suggestion of reissuing the earlier boxed set of Champions is more along the lines of what I was thinking. I've given up on the possibility of any idea of a boxed anything, but going back to the earlier days of one-book games is in the spirit of what I'm trying to investigate here in this particular thread. The things you offered, such as some villains, some adventures, character sheets, and so on, are all in line with what I'm talking about. But I also set the parameter for what I'm looking for outside of Champions and Fantasy HERO, just for the sake of this particular thread. I like the open discussion, but please folks, let's keep it civil and try to keep it on track.

No worries. Lots of things have come up. Let me rein it back in a bit. My contention in the original post is that people don't pick up Champions/Fantasy HERO Complete and feel like they're ready to start a game. They are, possibly, ready to learn how to create a game once they decide on a setting, maybe a magic system, an adventure possibly leading into a campaign, and so on. These are the sorts of decisions that it takes experience to make in lieu of supporting material, even if it's just some sample adventures or pre-gen characters or whatever. They games are "complete" only in the technical sense of "everything's there." But they aren't really ready to be played without a great deal of preparation. Of course, some of your questions are entailed in the post, but it's not really a thread about marketing, or about why people don't play the game more. Those threads are numerous and have been done plenty. What I haven't seen done is actually hammering out what a "one book game" might look like today, given the 6e ruleset. Yes, there is an assumption that the "one book game" will change the perception of HERO System, and that it will hopefully draw in more new people. It's clearly not a thread about experienced HERO players. I'll leave those issues in the background, and in other threads. I'm just playing with the toolbox to see what can be done.

Speaking for myself only, I have to say that as soon as you call what I've said "crap" you've passed over into "taking it personally" territory. There's no way to say that isn't just plain rude. Just sayin'. For the record, here's what I said: "System mastery" is my point here, not a nominal once-over of the rules that I hope my players make. Hell, I'm still trying to master the 6e rules after years of playing them. The 1e/2e/3e games were easy to learn and to master because they were quite brief. Anyone trying to learn the game today has to wade through a ton of rules, edge cases, extensions and extrapolations to come anywhere near system mastery. This is a serious non-starter for most gamers today. And I'd contend that one shouldn't be teaching the game if they don't have some level of competence with the rules first. Stopping and looking up the rules every time something happens is a sure-fire way to ensure that nobody will ever play again.

I'm right there with you, but I'm perhaps in more of a position where maybe, just maybe, I could spend some time and money to work on some of this stuff. As you say, it really has to happen, and someone has to take the lead and convince DOJ to take the plunge. But I really am serious about this, and would like to work on it as a long-term plan. Even if it only turns out to be a game for me alone, it would be a fun experiment. Maybe it could bear some fruit. It seems like anniversary editions of some of the old games could be an interesting option . . .

Yup, @Chris Goodwin pretty much knows where I'm coming from. My previous post traces some of my thinking, and @Hugh Neilson does a good job of outlining the challenges I'm facing. There's plenty of evidence that the people who are already playing are going to continue to play what they prefer in the ways that they already prefer. There's also good evidence that new people aren't picking up HERO System because it's like drinking from the fire hose, and who is going to invest a year of solid study to get the system mastery that it would take to even begin to design a game that others may want to play? @Gnome BODY (important!): As for GURPS, just as few people play that these days as HERO System, although the marketing machine of Steve Jackson Games keeps it going. God help us if they release a 5th edition of GURPS, because it'd probably bury HERO System for good. But the other systems you bring up are clearly more viable these days. Fate and Fate Accelerated are very popular these days, and draw in new gamers all the time. It's funny that you mention Powered By the Apocolypse, because that's sort of the model I was thinking of when I started this thread. PBTA games are introduced so frequently, and are bought and played so consistently, that I think it stands as a good model for today's market. Each game using PBTA as the toolbox is its own game, and presents the rules in its own way, making its own assumptions about how to apply the rules, etc. PBTA has a proven track record that it can power new game generation. HERO System likes to boast that it could do such a thing, but it simply doesn't. Champions isn't a game: it's still a game genre and a toolbox of rules, but there aren't any decisions made that are required in an actual game. PBTA always has a handful of new games being played at conventions, and has a very strong online presence (from what I can tell) with a new generation of gamers who want rules-light games that can be learned and played in a weekend. My contention is that HERO System should be like that. Now, I'm with you in spirit about the Powers. That's what makes HERO System what it is. But the marketing says that we can use those Powers to build anything without actually showing us what those things could be. Unless of course you buy a genre book, a setting book, perhaps an enemies book and and equipment guide, etc. This is the exact opposite of what DOJ should be doing, yet it's been the model for almost 30 years now. It's time to rethink what the HERO System is about. And I'm rethinking things for the future by re-visiting the past games that were "one book games" in the '80s. The Powers were in the background, and sorta bled through at times in something like Justice, Inc. with the weird talents and such. But they were great applications of the HERO System without simply being a rehash of the same set of rules with a new genre spackled over them. I don't want to presume to lecture anyone on the value of the game, or the history of HERO System or anything like that. As has been pointed out, we all have our ways of playing the game. But we are experienced HERO players here, and can actually pick the rules up and make the games we want to play for ourselves. We seem to forget that new people just cannot do that yet. So we need to be able to show them how it is done. This is most definitely for players who are new to the HERO System toolbox, and we teach them by not exposing them to the toolbox. We show them a game that is complete in and of itself, presented in one book, and playable as quickly as possible. This is not going to be a superhero or fantasy genre. It just isn't. We'd have hit that market if it was going to work. So I'm imaging a game that has mass appeal, that sparks the public imagination and taps into a cultural trend. It may not be the sexiest application of the HERO System, but I think a modern adventure game based on action movies is a great inroad. We don't have to teach the Powers, but we can show how all the equipment, weapon and vehicle lists were made with the Powers, although the builds themselves should be saved for an appendix and sidebars. People who don't care, won't care no matter how much we try to teach them the powers. People who do care will have enough leads to go look up the rules themselves and build their own stuff if they want to. This is just a thought experiment for now, but hopefully not a vanity project like Champions Now is. I want it to be viable, and potentially have a convention/market/online presence. That can only happen with a complete gestalt shift for how the HERO System is presented to new players.

To be honest, @zslane, I'm testing the waters here a little bit. When High Rock Press suggested rebooting Danger International two years ago or so (only to lose it in the production mix) I was excited and intrigued. Now it looks like it's on the back burner, or no burner at all since it's not been mentioned since. What I'd like to do is find a new way of presenting the HERO System material in a way that is different from it's current Champions/Fantasy HERO Complete model, since those don't really change anything to solve the problem of reaching new eyeballs, not simply repackaging what everyone on these boards already has anyway. Hugh outlines my loose goal pretty well. I realize that this is a bit of a bold move, but I look at what Ron Edwards is doing and think, "Hey, why can't I do that?" Admittedly, he's gone way adrift of the HERO System rules, and he also has the clout to do such a thing with the blessing of DOJ. But it's not a sustainable model for DOJ. I'm curious how to create a new model, and I may try to do something as bold as to present it as such. It's really just an exercise for me right now, but something I've been stewing on (as many of us have) for years. Someone has to take the lead, and though I don't have the credibility of some of the current writers, they all got there by starting somewhere themselves. I may start by publishing my current Pulp HERO campaign to Hall of Champions to give some indication of my competence.

Well, actually, I am considering making a proposal at some point, which is why I’m testing out some ideas here for the layout and structure. I think a good strong model and a good presentation could work.

As I mentioned in the OP, it’s a pulp campaign so no fancy technology to help them keep in touch. Looking back on it, I probably should have had her standing guard outside and then give her some mysterious dude lurking in the shadows to keep her occupied and engaged.

bustapc, it's kinda hit-or-miss, depending on the time of year and how busy Jason Walters is with other things, but usually it's about like Duke says: two weeks or so. I've had small and huge orders both arrive around the same time, and also had other orders take long enough that I forgot ordering them! And sometimes things get left out, but Jason always makes good on it. Just message him directly after a couple of weeks have gone by.

Well, I'm out of likes for the day. Thanks again for the great discussion! I'll have to group like y'all:

I may have finally come up with the term I've been looking for instead of "complete game."

In my group, I only have one experienced gamer, and he only knows D&D, but I basically told them "tell me what you want to do, and I'll show you how to do it." I actually don't want them to think about the rules first, and then their options second. So I'll try to sneak the lessons in as we go. No, they don't read the rules much, but I want them to get used to the idea that there probably is a rule for what they want to do. I may trick them into looking for rules on their own eventually, but really I just want them to (for now) enjoy the process of gaming and to realize that there are certain structures and rhythms to gaming that are worth learning and refining. I think they actually keep showing up for the food and booze.

Wow, that caught me off guard! I didn't remember using that name, and was pretty damned impressed with myself! . . . darn . . .

I need a dozen more "likes" for the day. I'll just give the whole group a

Holy Cow! I love that contest, and this one sounds fun as well. I also love that Monty Python sketch! This whole post deserves about 5 likes, but I've used up my quota for the day, dangit! I think you captured my meaning with the Tolkein comment: he created entire languages and created names from them. Everyone else just invented crazy sounding names. Maybe it's Led Zeppelin's fault with their random Tolkein references in their songs, inspiring horrible heavy metal bands, like Spinal Tap! Ok, satire, I know, but a little too close to home.