Narf the Mouse

 

As he lay dying, Lord Greystoke expressed his wish that his intestines and stomach be made into a set of drums and bagpipes so that he and his love of music might live on after his death. 

 

He wanted to ensure that people could hear the Tarzan's Tripes Forever.

 

...I'm not sure whether to like that or strangle you, and I don't know where you live, so...

 

Weird names generated via Seventh Sanctum

 

 

The Unspeakable Traveller Who Keeps the Dreamer

 

...So, Nyarlathotep, or Yog-Sothoth?

I appreciate that this thread might not be for you, or may contain more details than you want in your campaign. I acknowledged in my first post that truth.

Is there any particular reason, then, to post that this type of gaming, or the type of gaming you perceive it as, or the type of thread you perceive it as, is not for you?

If you truly feel that learning about histoical accuracy in medieval combat will not help your campaign, what, exactly, are you doing here?

I do not go on threads about the joys of narrative play, and extol on how narrative play is, ultimately, not for me and not interesting. That would be rather pointless, would it not?

Likewise, this is not the new jokes thread, and while a certain amount of levity is welcome, this thread has barely even started its first topic before it has experienced its first major derail.

I started this thread with the idea that those interested in discussing historical medieval combat, and its application to fantasy, could do so. Before the second page, this entire thread has been taken off-topic.

@Markdoc: I apologize; I will try to get back to you with a suitable post. In the mean-time, I'm rather too riled up to come up with a good post.

Actually, you're not wrong .... but it's complicated. We have a pretty good idea of what the battles were like in the late medieval or early renaissance period, because we have contemporary accounts. But we know very little about individual fighting, because nothing was written about that. Florange gives detailed accounts about the politics of his war, the people involved and the battles. He also says it took 5-6 years training or experience to make a good pikeman .... and that's it. He tells us nothing about what that training was, or how the soldiers actually fought. And neither does anybody else, as far as I know.

 

But we can make some educated guesses from what *was* written. Some commanders complained about poorly trained pikemen who "fenced" with their pikes, and did not close with the enemy. From this we can guess that the best pikemen did get in close. There are also complaints about pikemen who dropped their weapons in melee, from which we can guess that they were not supposed to. They could still fight one handed with a light weapon, but there's another option ... A pike block was (ideally) a highly-trained unit. If you - as a frontliner - trusted your comrades behind you to kill the guys facing you, then you could use your pike to kill the guys in more distant ranks, breaking up the cohesion of the enemy's front ranks. Finally of course, both Swiss and landskneckts included sword and halberd men in small numbers, whose place was just behind the front ranks. We know that their job was to "cut into" the enemy formation, so that the pikes could continue to push into them ... presumably in that press of melee.

 

As for the willingness to take horrendous casualties, that's one of the things that made the swiss so feared. They were apparently always willing to do that, and their enemies often crumbled, or even ran at the Swiss charge, because they weren't.

 

Here's a Swiss classic. At the battle of St. Jakob an der Bir, a swiss force of around 1500 pikemen was sent scout out and harass the advancing French. Encountering the French army - an estimated 30,000 troops - the Swiss decided to ignore their own orders .... and immediately attacked. Even for these guys, at odds of 20-1, the outcome was inevitable. Although they actually broke the French centre in hard fighting, the heavily outnumbered Swiss were eventually surrounded and completely wiped out (some writers say 16 escaped: whatever) after an epic fight that lasted 10 hours. We also have a detailed account of that battle from an eyewitness - a mercenary commander called Picolomini ... who later became pope.

 

What was that bit about avoiding horrendous casualties if other options were available?

 

Cheers, Mark

You're contradicting yourself in the second and third highlighted area. Namely, in stating the ferocity of the Swiss pikemen often causing others to run, which logically means that others were less ferocous, and more likely to run

Further, in the first highlighted area, all your correction states is that pikemen blocks would have included people with swords and halberds (the average halberd being much shorter than the average pike), whose job was to "cut into the enemy formation". Now, it is impossible to "cut into the enemy formation" from the back ranks with a shorter weapon. So presumably, they'd be in the front ranks once close combat ensued.

Edit: This entire post is rambling train-of-thought. Apologies if not comprehensible; I can try to explain anything that isn't.

@Markdoc: This paragraph, I think, may be a key factor:

There are plenty of other examples, but you get the idea. Push of pike definitely developed into bloody melee combat on many occasions. What this means in practice, again, based on contemporary accounts, is that the pikes met in a bloody clash, but after that additional clash, the front lines degenerated into close combat, while the rear ranks stabbed past them at whatever target they could reach. The front lines might pull apart when the casualties became too much, only to dress their line and press forward again, but in other cases, combat seemed to have been a slow meatgrinder of continual pressure.

Close combat with a pike does not seem practical. It seems like altogether too long of a weapon to use in close combat. OTOH, I'd likely have a sword, axe, or mace, which would do better in close combat. Meanwhile, the soldiers in the second rank would not generally be in danger from pikes, as aiming at the enemy's front ranks would be easier than aiming at the second rank.

You're right in that ancient battles could have, by modern sensibilities, horrendous casualties. Where I think you may not be accurate is the willingness to win a battle through horrendous casaulties, when other options existed. Underlining for emphasis. And when it comes down to marching straight at an enemy carrying only a sharp, pointy stick for defence, when the enemy is pointing a sharp, pointy stick at me, well, if I were a medieval person, I might view that as a splendid thing to do.

But once the enemy is past the end of my pike, my options are to either pull the pike in, and try to fight like it's some sort of oversized quarterstaff, or pull out my side-arm, and have a weapon that suits that range better.

Which is, arguably, still a pike fight, as the guys behind me are still in splendid position to stab at the guys in front of me with pikes. Myself, I'm probably using something that doesn't put the point of my weapon a few feet past my immediate enemy, if I hold it towards that enemy.

One method is awkward, and likely to get me killed against the enemy's close-range weapon. The other involves pulling out my own close-range weapon.

You're right in that pikemen likely did attack each other directly. But the front rank would not be fighting as pikemen, for the same reason that you pulled out your dagger when grappling ensued.

Or I could be wrong.

Melee Weapon Masses

The average medieval melee weapon massed around 1 to 2 kg. Heavier examples existed, around 7 kg or more, but were strictly parade weapons. Very large greatswords could reach about 3.5 kg, but most did not exeed 2.7 kg. Medieval soldiers were not supermen. Arguably the heaviest medieval weapon, a medieval pike, could reach 6 kg, but was strictly a two-handed weapon, and was almost never used in actual melee combat; rather, to fend off cavalry. In the rare case of pike facing pike, one side or the other would break and run first. In re-enactment testing, two blocks of pikes will kill each other about as fast as they make contact - A situation acceptable to no soldiers in history.

Armour Mass

Historical analysis and testing of armour used in actual battle (as opposed to parade) reveals that the mass of a soldier's armour has remained steady throughout history: Around 16 kg, and rarely reaching 23 kg. Even most modern armour falls within this range. Quite simply, heavier armour weighs the soldier down too much to be practical. If armour heavier than 16 kg is to be worn, it is typically on a pack animal, and donned just before battle. The heavy armour worn for jousting is strictly sports armour, and intended to be worn for, and specialized for, no more than the time it took you to knock your opponent off his horse (or vice-versa). Jousting was simply a medieval sport, and specialized equipment was used by professional players, much like any professional sport.

Sources: The Association for Rennaisance Martial Arts. Wikipedia. Scholagladatoria (Historical European Martial Arts instructor) on Youtube. Skallagrim (Historical European Martial Arts practitioner) on Youtube. LindyBeige (Retired Archeologist and re-enactor) on Youtube. Various webpages, too numerous to mention or remember.

This thread has been created because there is a lot of misinformation out there, and because it is easier to introduce plausible fantastic elements if you know what plausible realistic elements are.

Of course, this thread is not for every campaign, or every GM. If your current campaign ignores plausibility ("Drive me closer, I want to hit their tank with my sword!"), or you have no intention of paying any attention to plausibility ("You know, I never studied law."), this thread is of little to no use.

However, most campaigns and GMs want their stories to have at least a semblance of "this could reasonably happen in a world with elves, dragons, and wizards", so for those GMs, this thread will attempt to address "realistic" medieval combat, and medieval arms and armour. The medieval time period was chosen as being the most common and popular, thus the largest area to address. Insofar as "realism" may apply to a world with elves, dragons, and wizards.

So, without further ado:

It seems there's a few key points:

1) Players hate having the GM virtually "run their characters".

2) Capture should be because of player actions, either because the players agree that an "escape scenario" would be fun, or the PCs were "legally" overwhelmed and captured.

3) By "legally", I mean, if a horde of ninja come out of the trees and capture the PCs, there should be a reasonable reason for a horde of ninja to be there, a reasonable chance for the players to realize they're Entering Ninja Horde Territory, a reasonable reason for the ninja to want to capture the PCs, the PCs should be captured through game mechanics, not the GM saying they're captured, and the reasonable expectation that the PCs will soon be able to take action, either to facillitate their escape or enact useful plans inside the prison.

4) Players should have some opportunity to turn the tables on their captor(s).

5) Players want to know that their GM will provide this.

6) Players do not want this to be a frequent occurance; at the least, it's cliche, at the worst, it's bad GM'ing.

That about sum it up?

Classic DC comics, AFAICT, isn't about power levels, or stats, or specific powers. It's about mythology.

It's about a god-like alien who's more human than most humans, who fell in love with a story-teller.

It's about a woman made of clay, with a heart of gold and fists of steel, and her greatest weapon the truth.

It's about a stranger in a strange land, who can understand anyone perfectly...But never really fit in.

It's about a flying wizard with a magic ring, who can overcome anything...Except fear, and the frailty of his magic lamp.

It's about a man so fast he can out-run time itself...And lose himself so thoroughly that he has to slow down from time to time.

It's about an ordinary man who trained and learned and fought and built till he could stand with near-gods.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cinemasins

Something tells me that you guys will, as well, find those videos quite fun.

Nothing is always. Everything depends. While I like the "Batman deliberately draws fire" approach, there is definitely a subset of players who would be incensed at the GM robbing them of their player agency by deciding what their character did, whether for the character's benefit or to their detriment. Those players may be best directed at other games, or even other genres, though.

Uh...Why are you assuming the GM didn't consult the player? Nothing in that part of the video precludes him having asked the player if that was ok.

Why did Waldo cross the road?

Why not just give bows Reduced Penetration?

Enhanced Senses? I figure it's more likely he has KS: Military/Mercenary World bought up to at least an 18-.

That would help with identifying, but not perceiving.

Eliot was probably the highest point total character in that show. If I was writing him up I'd probably go with a lot of overall skill levels and an area effect energy blast to represent his ability to hammer 4 or more guys in a second.(later in the series he added killing damage) probably also a teleport for his appear behind some one when he shouldn't even be there trick.

 

Examples

 

https://youtu.be/nLdZ1ZObp5Y

...So he's a reformed horror movie monster?

Hmm...I might buy a few.

For me, of course.

makes me think of Leverage Eliot was always making his perception rolls Its a very distinctive sound/style/stance//smell/haircut/footprint

 

...I think the GM needs to go over how much Enhanced Senses he bought. He might be over the limit...

Battlecat is hanging off of He-Man, who is hanging off of Peter Pan, as they fly over the sea to rescue Thundarr the Barbarian.

He-Man calls up "Anything I should do?"

Peter Pen yells back down...

Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana.

That's actually a foundational problem in getting computers to understand English...And a good way of explaining why it's a hard problem.

I think it's a recommendation to let people know that the strip has started again. Like your fanfiction recommends in the NGD, Narf. Otherwise I doubt he needs criticism since the start date is almost ten years ago in 06

CES

Hmm...Probably should have checked the date on the page.

Ok, so there's one of two formats I could see here. It looks like either a webcomic, or an illustrated book. I'm going to give what I hope will be concrit for both cases.

If it's a webcomic:

1) Too much text. Your art should tell most of the story, or you should consider the advice under "If it's an illustrated book".

If it's an illustrated book:

1) A lot of the art clearly fits under "things someone would tap into a book", complete with "actual" tape. That's good.

2) Unfortunately, a few pictures seem to pop out of the "book" or overlap both pages in a way that knocks me out of suspension of disbelief.

3) Sadly, I find the main font you are using hard to read.

Other than that, it looks pretty good.

As long as you recognize that they are both book legal. There are a lot of things that GMs say "no" to, for game balance.

Sure, but the rules need a GM to keep them balaned, and mention this explicitly, a lot. If you don't provided needed balance decisions, and the players don't restrain themselves, well, things will be unbalanced.

The last time I really looked at the base rules was in 4th edition.  From what I remember, 5th didn't change them much, if at all.  I don't play 6th and so don't know what happened with that.

 

But from my experience, bases are one of the things that are hard to get "right" in Hero.  There's a fine line between a base being a useless waste of points, and being ungodly powerful.  There are some pretty simple tricks to abusing the base rules.  You can get things a lot cheaper than it first appears.  I like to buy a character's "gadget pool" (particularly one that can only change in the lab) through the base.  That gives you basically a 5 for 1 discount on those powers.  Another good one is to buy the size of the base up much larger than you need and take (I believe it's called) "sectional defenses" on the actual 'base' part of your base.  If it's actually going to be any sort of fortress you can get a great price break on its Def and Body that way.

 

Anyway, in the end I don't think they're balanced properly and so I try to avoid them now.  You either end up with some crappy place that you never want to use, or a super-fortress that you never want to leave.

Ok, in order; first, if the character buys a gadget pool through the base, then I would rule that they can only use that gadget pool inside the base. Second, if the characters' base is actually a fraction of the "size" they bought, I would rule that the actual size of the base is the size of the actual base. Both of those feel "Cheaty" to me, so I would rule against them on those basis.

Plus, you don't get thrown out of your secret base when supervillains invade every other story arc.

Couple of counterpoints to that...the two big books are still for sale in PDF. Steve Long still gives official rulings on them in this forum. And I'm not sure how you know whether more people prefer the Complete series (I don't). Even if your gaming group and your buddies on this forum have that opinion, that's not necessarily the best rubric.

 

Bring back the big books! 

No, actually it's understandable that they were too expensive to reprint and the game remains accessible through Complete. So that's fair enough. 

 

But as a newcomer, I would prefer to learn through Basic Rules then use the Big Books. Coming completely fresh through Complete would be tougher - there just aren't enough examples and explanations in my opinion. Basic teaches the game very well.

I actually do regular searches on Hero System on other boards, blogs, etc.. Mostly boards and blogs, because there isn't much etc..

CC and FHC are more popular than 6e1 and 6e2 by that sampling.

I don't measure the popularity here, becuase this forum is self-selected towards people who like massive tomes. I read the entirety of 6e1 and 6e2; that doesn't think I mean I'm indicative of most gamers on the internet.

Edit: As well, the official word in the official threads for FHC and CC, over and over again, was "These are the 6e rulebooks now." If that's changed, I haven't seen an announcement on it. If it has, I apologize.