LoneWolf

While greater height can mean greater strength that is not always the case. I am a lot taller than my brother in-law, but he does a lot more physical work than me. When we moved to a new hose he was able to move stuff a lot easier than I could. If you think just because you are taller you are stronger than someone who engages in hard physical labor you are mistaken. Historically the average height has gone up because of better nutrition and medical care, but that does not translate into stronger people. Obesity has also dramatically increased from the past. The average modern man is probably weaker than the average man in the past. The modern athlete on the other hand is probably a lot stronger than those in the past.

There is also a Talent in Fantasy Hero for turning undead. It is just extra PRE vs undead, the talent also has an extension of the normal PRE attack chart where if you roll high enough the undead start taking damage. For this to work all undead take the complication.

As duke pointed out the purpose behind all frameworks is to save points. If you object to elemental control because they just save points, you should disallow all frameworks and the unified power limitation. The way elemental controls were in earlier editions did not have any real drawback, but that changed in latter editions. Having all powers in the framework drained when any power in the framework is drained is a legitimate drawback. The Idea behind all frameworks is to allow the player to create certain types of characters. While elemental controls and unified powers allow you to purchase more powers, they also make it easier for the character to purchase all the powers and abilities the special effect should have. This can really reinforce the idea of paying for everything the character can do including rarely used power. As a GM have qualms about being incredibly hard ass on what a character can do. You want your precog to be able to figure out what people are going to do in combat buy the skill tactics with the unified power limitation on it or you don’t have it. You want your electricity-based character to create magnetic fields buy change environment. Don't complain to me you cannot afford it that is why you are saving points on the other powers.

15m flight with megascle cost 30 points. I can buy 20m of flight with a x8 NC for the same 30 points. Having more meters in flight gives you more maneuverability in combat. You don’t need increase the NC that much to get a reasonable NC speed. Megascale will always be better for covering long distance, but a higher base movement gives you better option in combat. If I am spending more points the speeds scale up appropriately. At 60 points I can get 30M or megascale flight, or 45 at x16 NC, or 50M at x8. The megascale flight will allow me to reach anywhere in the world in minutes, the 45M will probably get you across the US in about 20 minutes, where the 50M with x8 will take about twice that. The extra 20M gives a big advantage in combat. Someone who wanted more maneuverability in combat would be better off with the 50M with the x8 NC multiplier. They would still be able to reach most local location quickly. If the campaign is based around a single city or even a small state that should be good enough.

With normal flight and a higher NC multiple you have better combat maneuverability. Megascale is an advantage so a higher base cost increases the cost more. At low meters of movement Megascale is fairly cheap, but at a higher value it cost more. Also megascale is an advantage so increases the END cost where NC move does not. If all you want to do is get from one location to another megascale is the better way. If you want to have superior maneuverability in combat, but still be able to get from one location to another fairly quickly increasing the NC multiple works fairly well. You could of course put the movement in a multipower but that means you end up spending more points because you have to buy both the pool and the slots.

The must pass through intervening space is mainly about escaping barriers like walls and entangles. With normal teleport things like walls, or even being in a completely sealed environment does not matter. It is for things like stopping time and walking to the new location and restarting time. Under 6th edition rules the character using megascale can define the scale anywhere from 1m = 1m to the maximum distance he purchased. Anything above 1m = 1m is considered megascale. The book states that 1.1m = 1m would still be considered megascale. That makes it clear you do not have to use the minimum of 1m = 1KM. You can even change the scale from phase to phase. The problem with teleport is all the movement takes place in a single phase so that option is not really valid for teleport.

The must pass through intervening space would prevent you from using it to escape places you cannot leave. That would include bared jail cell or room with a closed door and closed windows. If you can escape confinement that is not airtight it is more a special effect, or you can reduce the limitation to a -0.

Personally I don’t have a problem with characters saving points for having a tight concept. The Idea behind Unified Power is that the all the powers are actually part of a single power that can be applied in multiple ways. It can allows a character to purchase powers they should have, but might otherwise skip because they cannot afford them. Like anything else it can be abused, but that does not mean it has no place in the game. As long as the powers fit the special effect it is not a problem. The problem comes when the special effect is so vague that anything can be put in it. Unified power with the special effect of flame is fine, but unified power with the special effect of super powers is not going to cut it.

One thing to keep in mind is that Unified Power is only a -1/4 limitation. This is about the same value as the power not working in an uncommon circumstance. So even if drains are fairly rare that is still an appropriate value. Considering how effect drains are even if the Unified Power limitation is being used, there should be a fair amount of them in most campaigns. For 60 points I can have a 6d6 drain that will reduce a characteristic by 21 points. If the drain targets INT or EGO that will reduce most characters to a 0 unless they have power defense or have an extremely high score. Either one of those drains means the character has less than a 40% chance of being able to act.

I have to agree that this does not seem like a good idea. This looks like a solution in search of a problem. The Hero system is already complex enough without adding more granularity. One of the biggest complaints people have about the Hero System is the math is to complex. This makes that situation even worse. All this is going to do is to slow down the game to a point you are going have to have a computer to play the game. That is going to turn off a huge amount of players and make it unlikely anyone is going to want to play the game. This is a bad idea that does nothing to improve the game.

One the big complaint on 6th edition is that they eliminated the elemental control framework and replaced it with the unified power limitation. On the surface this seem like a straight downgrade that makes the character more expensive in 6th edition. But since the limitation can be put on all game elements including characteristics and frameworks, it seems like this could actually save you a lot more points than the previous elemental control. Now, there are downsides to doing so, but it seems to me you end up getting more out of this than you would with an elemental control. It is suggested that the GM might want to limit the power to about the same active cost, but that is not an actual rule. If this is not implemented, it would allow for even more benefit. This would allow you to create a character that has lower powered benefits to the main power. For example, I was working on character whose main power was precognition and put the limitation on a couple of skills like deduction and tactics to simulate his ability to see into the future. He did not figure out what you were planning to do he simply knew what you were going to do. I wanted to get others feedback on this and see what other people thoughts are on this.

The way I look at it most package deals are for players who are having trouble creating their character from scratch. Racial package deals are the main exception to this. Those are more about defining what abilities a particular race has in the campaign. Package deals are mainly to get the player started and to make sure they have the basic things the concept usually needs.

The way the group I game with handles stats is that any characteristic gained from a racial template increases both the stat and the maximum. Basically, we treat them as a power rather than a characteristic. If you use Hero Designer and put the added the racial adjustments under powers instead of characteristics, you are not charged double when you go over the normal maximum. This allows a little more variance in characteristics. With this each race has the same spread for characteristics, but still has some differences. A strong Orc is going to be stronger than a strong human. Unfortunately, you cannot set the characteristics to negative in the power section of Hero Designer. You can lower the characteristic under the characteristic tab and also manually adjust the Maximum on the Campaign Rules. Since it is extremely rare for a character to exceed a lowered maximum, this is probably not a big deal. Maybe if Simon sees this, he could add an option to lower characteristics in the powers section. That would make it easier to create racial templates.

In games like D&D and Pathfinder your characteristics are more important at early levels, but after you start gaining levels their impact on the game diminishes and your class abilities start to make more difference. For example, in pathfinder if I have a first level elven wizard with and 18 STR vs a fighter with a 10 STR the elven wizard will probably defeat the fighter. The +4 to hit and damage from STR gives the wizard the advantage. But as the characters gain levels the wizard quickly falls behind. By 4th level the fighter has gained enough BAB and feats and extra HP that the odds are now with the fighter. With Fantasy Hero characters start out stronger than other games, but don’t progress as quickly. Starting Fantasy Hero characters are closer to mid-level characters than starting characters in other systems. The other thing to consider is how the stats define the character. In other games any character can usually use any weapon they know how no matter what their STR score is. In Pathfinder for example I can have a 10 STR and use a bastard sword. I may not get the bonus to hit and damage, but I can use the sword. In Fantasy Hero weapons have STR min you need to meet or you take penalties to hit. To use a bastard sword in Fantasy Hero requires a 13 STR if used in two hands or a 15 STR if used in one hand. If you are playing in an earlier edition the higher base damage allows you to achieve a higher max damage. Prior to 6th edition damage for KA was capped at twice the base damage. This is recommended in 6th edition Fantasy Hero as well. Your 10 STR character in Fantasy Hero would be limited to using a short sword and doing 2d6 damage with skill level and martial arts. Your 15 STR character could use a bastard sword one handed and do a max damage of 3d6. If you have a 17 STR you could use a greatsword for 2d6 damage and max damage of 4d6. An extra die or two may not seem significant but in the Hero system it is really is. The other thing you are not factoring is that the Hero System has a lot more stats than the D20 based games. In those you have 6 stats; in Hero you have about 20 depending on the edition. When you look at all the stats you are going to get a lot more variance than if you are only considering a few. DCV is going to be a lot more important to the lightly armored warrior than the one in full plate and shield. Many heavily armored warriors favor blocking over dodging so don’t need the same level of DCV as the light warrior. To them OCV is more important. As to the balance Fantasy Hero is better balanced than most other systems. By design a point-based system is all about balance. You pretty much pay for everything you can do.

I don’t have FHC but from what I can see the stats in it are different than the other books. Both the Fantasy Hero book and the rule book have a short spear listed as +0 OCV doing 1d6+1 damage with a normal stun multiple and a STR minimum of 10. A long spear has a -1 OCV does 2d6 damage with a normal stun multiple and a 13 STR min. The long spear is also listed as a 2H weapon. The STR min for the long spear is 14 in the Fantasy Hero book. The long spear is also listed as a EL weapon in the rules book, but not in Fantasy Hero. That gives the one from the rule book a 3m reach instead of 2. I can see a 10+ foot spear having a -1 OCV. The problem seems that the stats for the same thing are different depending on the source.

My copy of Fantasy Hero 6th edition shows both the short and medium spear as being one handed weapons that can be thrown. The short spear has a STR min of 10 and a medium has a 12 STR min. The Long spear is a two-handed weapon with a STR min of 14. The average STR in a Fantasy Hero game is probably going to be higher than 8. In a world where hard physical labor is more common the average STR will probably be higher. The 8 STR is more for a modern world where we have devices that does not require a great deal of STR. Driving a car with power steering does not require much muscle, but working on a farm without mechanical devices requires quite a bit of muscle power.

Most important subjects tend to have multiple gods for that subject. There seems to be more gods of war than the sun. Greek mythology has at least 2 gods of war. One may be a goddess, but the point is there are more than one.

There are lots of circus stereotypes that could make decent characters. The strongman who actually has low end superhuman strength, the hypnotist with some mental powers, the stage magician, and acrobat immediately come to mind. Early American folk hero would also be a good fit for this type of campaign. Things like Davy Crockett, Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill and John Henry could serve as inspiration.

Then every character will have knowledge and science skills. What about a character with Inventor or mechanics? Do they also get a VPP? How about a character with lots of social skills do they get minor mental powers? Does buying paramedics give you healing? Does animal handler give you mind control vs animals? Background skill cost less than other skill because they are not supposed to have a large effect on the game. Doing this makes them more valuable than full skills. A small VPP is not really that expensive and can easily be afforded by a champion’s character. I can see allowing the character to create items once in a while, but if it is something they do regularly they should pay points for it. A 20-point VPP with the limitations only changes between adventures (-1) and OAF cost 13 points. Characters should get what they pay for, but they should also pay for what they get.

Creating an incredibly knowledgeable character in the Hero System is dirt cheap. For 21 point I can have a character with an 18 INT and 5 13 or less background skills (science or knowledge skills). That also gives me a 13 or less perceptions roll. Any INT skill I purchase also starts at 13 or less. Since you already paid for the skill enhancer each additional background skill only costs you 2 points. Almost all characters except NPC’s seem to end up buying up their INT to 13, which means you are only paying 18 more points. Paying 18 points for +1 to all INT based skills (including perception) and getting a small VPP is too good to pass up. If the skills alone get you the ability to do this any intelligent player is likely to do this. Now the game has turned into scientists and scholars instead of western champions. This post is also in the Champions forum. In a Champions game the character purchases all their abilities. If the gunslinger has to purchase his six shooters, the schoolteacher should pay for the ability to create useful items. If this were a heroic game it might be different, but then it should take a significant amount of time to create anything.

Use a VPP not skill rolls. Unless you are going to allow all characters to be able to use skills like this it is unfair that one character gets this ability while other do not. If you give it to every character than all characters are going to be highly educated. When you do that the character is no longer unique.

If my suggestions on defenses and damage are followed you don’t need all that many powerful people or monsters. Ordinary gunslingers are still a threat. Not so much individually, but in numbers. An outlaw gang or Indian tribes are still threats to supers with low defenses. You will still have powerful individual and monsters, but they will be the boss fights instead of the ordinary encounters. Most of the characters mentioned in the original post do not have superpowers. For the most part they are exceptionally well trained normal humans. To keep the western feel I would avoid using mutants so the typical four-color Champions character does not seem appropriate. I do see lots of magic and technology being more common. The technology is probably going to be more steampunk than modern technology. I also see lots of highly skilled characters.

Having a single bullet proof hero should be ok, as long as the character has some sort of weakness that can be used against him. Maybe he is gullible or physically slow. If his defenses are high enough that he can handle the BODY of the attack but still takes stun that would be better. One thing to keep in mind that is if a characters main defense is not getting hit combat tends to be all or nothing. This seems to bother a lot of Gm’s. A lot of GM’s seem to feel if the characters don’t take damage every fight they need to make the opponents tougher so that they are a challenge. When the character is taken out by an average hit, getting hit needs to be rare. Usually when the character gets hit it is because they messed up. It could be they failed a perception roll so did not notice an opponent and so took went all out offensive instead of maintaining their defense. When the character can easily be taken out not getting hit for multiple sessions is ok. If there are a lot of characters are relying on DCV the need for healing is not going to be that big of a deal. For other characters that are not quite so hard to hit, they should be buying up their body. Most characters should consider buying up their body from the default 10. Having easy healing does not really fit the idea of a western. Life is supposed to be dangerous.

You probably want to keep the defenses low enough that ordinary guns are a threat. The characters can have some resistant defense, but not enough to bounce bullets. DCV and combat luck should be the main defensive powers. This means you will probably need to scale back your attacks a bit. Unusual attacks are fine and should be encouraged. In a lot of ways this is going to resemble a high powered Fantasy Hero game more than a champions. Ranged martial arts and skill levels will probably be fairly common. Normal martial arts are probably also going to useful. Martial arts don’t need to be eastern; there are lots of western martial arts like boxing and wrestling.

Considering you can buy another battle star for 5 points, I don’t have a problem with purchasing fighters cheap. Star Hero is normally a heroic game so characters usually purchase equipment including ships with cash instead of points. So, how you build a vehicle or base really does not matter that much. Missile bought as vehicles are usually sophisticated devices with lots of capabilities that go way beyond fire and forget. They often have computer guidance systems that are able to evade anti-aircraft defenses. They can often navigate to avoid defenses or to get a better approach to strike. There is no reason you cannot have both in your campaign. We have both in real life now. Often the purpose of writing up a device as a vehicle to define how they work in the game.