VRabubo

I'm new playing Champions and still trying to work my head around power frameworks. I saw some nice explanations of them and have seen them used in some different ways, but I don't have access to all the books so a couple things I'm still unsure about. Like are there more than three frameworks and if so what are they? I have seen a few fantasy characters having something that looks like an Equipment Framework, is that different from the Champion's Frameworks? Mainly I would like to see a thread where people post various different ways to use all the frameworks available in the Hero System with points all clearly labeled and I think that would help me understand them better and show me some I might not have access to with my Champions book. SO, could people post some fun and interesting uses of frameworks with explanations?

VPPs offer flexibility, so you don't have to pay for it with advantages like Variable Special Effects or Allocatable, available on some defense powers, lets you shift points between the different defense types.  
 
And this can easily be viewed as dubious, but...for a combat VPP, you generally don't buy No Skill Roll.  It's too expensive in most cases.  Well, OK...you're gonna buy your Power skill up to something fairly good anyway, right?  If we're talking 18 INT, and a 60 point control cost, to get to a 14- requires 7 levels.  That's 17 points.  Well, taking it to a 17- is only 6 more.  And here's the dubious part:  slap the common modifier Requires a Skill Roll on.  Your Power skill's already the natural choice, and you've already paid for it.  Yeah, you have to make the roll, but that's why you buy the roll up.
 
What this means is, everything in your VPP is now getting a -1/2 limitation.  In a 6E VPP, pool size and control cost are completely separate.  Pool size is character points.  So you can have pool size 41, control 62...say, for a VPP where you have 10 dice at 1/2 END, or 12 dice at full, for a swath of basic attack powers, and you can tweak for AoEs or whatnot.  You can also define the pool size as much larger, so you throw your Flight in there, with both combat and non-combat modes.  With the -1/2 limitation applying. 
 
An extreme form of this is a control cost of 30, with a pool size of around 100...yeah, 5 separate 30 point powers, if you keep the skill roll.  What you MAY do is buy 0 Phase to switch powers.  What can you buy?  Defense in layers.  10/10 Resistant and 50% DR...physical and energy are separate.  That's 3 slots.  HTH attacks.  Movement.  Characteristics...30 points means as much as +3 SPD, or +3 OCV and DCV, or +20 STR, 0 END...combined with 4d6 AP HA at 1/2 END for a Harvey Wallbanger configuration.  For No Skill Roll?  A smaller pool size, enough for probably 1 power, where that power can take other limitations.  Or when the entire pool is gonna be bought with OIAID.  ESPECIALLY when you can take a fairly large Limited Powers in the VPP.  Quite often this works out better in an MP, tho...basically, the double cost savings of keeping the skill roll on the VPP, and slapping RSR as a common modifier, is huge.
 
Basically, the Hero rules are open-ended, and there's almost no inherent balance checking.  That's left up to the GM and players.  Character creation is an exercise in massaging the rules to get the most we can get, while keeping the drawbacks to what we can accept.  That assessment is highly personal.  The rules allow point shaving in MANY ways...OIAID, focus, the double-use skill roll VPP, ECs, multiform abuse.  For combat powers, Limited Range is your friend because the range mods kill your attack effectiveness anyway, long before you hit the limit for Limited Range.  
 
I agree that the notion of "you get what you pay for, and no more" is a goal, but it tends to be a lot easier to enforce at the micro level, not the macro level. 

Might as well add this, though it may or may not be tangential:
 
It is no secret that I like to make fun of the bow and arrow superhero.  It is generally good-natured (generally.  It isn't a concept I care for, but I am not going to disallow them; I know they are popular).
 
Let me tell you who started me on this path or archer hatred:
 
My own brother J.
 
He built an archer, complete with a trick arrow MP filled with Ultras.  I reviewed and okayed the character.  Now before anyone selected or built their characters, I gave them a general layout of the plot, where the campaign was (hopefully) going to go, who they might face, etc, etc.
 
This included a guy with the power to drain tecnology-based powers (could reduce equipment to dust).
 
At one point, the villain grabbed J's bow and did his thing, starting to destroy the bow.
 
J responds with "I hit him with two electro STUN arrows."
 
How do you expect to do that?
 
"One in each hand, stab him in the neck from each side."
 
Okay, I tell you what- _technically_, losing the bow is draining your MP pool, but given your SFX, I see why this should work.  Make a DEX roll to see if you can grab both--
 
"Yeah; I dont have to.  They are regular powers; the arrows are SFX."
 
"Right, but without the bow-"
 
He spun his character sheet around to me,  "the bow is unnecessary."
 
I _thought_ I had read the character before I approved it.   I had not read it closely enough.....
 
Evrything in his MP was bought as normal attacks-  that is, HTH attacks, or without range.
 
The bow was listed separately.  It was the cost of adding Ranged to non-ranged attacks, bought through a focus.  The MP was _not_ bought through a focus (though it did have lumited shots on everything.
 
I had missed that.
 
And that is how, in the mid-eighties, we stumbled across the idea of what is now called a Naked Advantage.
 
(Oh, and the villain went down: he had a weakness against electrical SFX).  Granted, J was throwing his arrows or leaping in and stabbing villains with them, until they swung back by HQ.
 
And that was when my ire with archers started.   it is really J slipping one past me that I am grumbling about.
 
 
 
 

Unified Power is fine if villains with Adjustment Powers show up often enough for it to reasonably come into play. The issue is finding a balance. Some GM's rarely have them and in that case it's free points.

The main ones offered in 6th are Multipower, Power Pools and the Unified Power Limitation.   There are some variants in the APG but I don't remember much about them off hand.

From at least 4/5 are going to be basically the same with the only difference being Elemental Controls, which Unified Power replaced.   But they essentially do the same thing, I think there are other posts going into more details on UP vs EC.

That really is it for the most part.  There are some variance on how the various Frameworks function by edition and the older (pre-4th) you go, the more different some things will look.
 
 
That being said, you mentioned Champions at first but then also Fantasy and Pathfinder.  Exactly what type of game are you trying to do with HERO?    Because completely separate from Frameworks are suggested rules and systems based on type of game.

I mostly want to see all of what is out there, but we are playing a mesh of 4th and 6th edition and I have access to 2nd edition, 6th Champions Complete book, and sometimes the 4th edition book (not often tho). I've been thinking about getting the Advanced players guide but they were sold out last I checked.
 
The GM is very open for what he will let in. Half the time we are even playing with Pathfinder characters too because we occasionally combine groups. However, I have definitely noticed that using a framework or key combination of powers and disadvantages (like equipment) makes a big difference for point economics to be effective.

I'm new playing Champions and still trying to work my head around power frameworks. I saw some nice explanations of them and have seen them used in some different ways, but I don't have access to all the books so a couple things I'm still unsure about. Like are there more than three frameworks and if so what are they? I have seen a few fantasy characters having something that looks like an Equipment Framework, is that different from the Champion's Frameworks? Mainly I would like to see a thread where people post various different ways to use all the frameworks available in the Hero System with points all clearly labeled and I think that would help me understand them better and show me some I might not have access to with my Champions book. SO, could people post some fun and interesting uses of frameworks with explanations?

I never had a problem with players trying to get a bunch of low-cost powers.  When you do that you don’t save as much.  In general a bunch of low cost powers are not as effective as a few high-cost powers.  Since every power has to be twice the active cost of the EC a low point EC does not save you many points.  Unless your GM is allowing multiple EC on the same character it is better to have a higher cost EC and buy the low cost powers outside the EC. 
 
For example, if you put the 3 powers you listed into a 5-point EC instead of a 25 Your EC would cost 3 point and your 3 50-point powers would cost 35 point instead of 17.  That means you are paying an extra 40 points for the same powers.  You could then put in a bunch of 10-point powers for 3 points each, but  all that does is increase the final cost of the character.  You would need to have 13 10-point powers to make equal out and even then, you would be spending an extra 39 points.  At that point each point you spend is getting you 1.7 points.  With the 25-point EC each point is getting you 2.2 points.  Throw in a few more 50-point powers and the saving are even higher.  If your 25-point EC has 6 powers each point gets you 2.5 points.  
 
One of the reasons that special powers are not allowed in an EC is that for the most part they are usually dirt cheap.  If a GM is too permissive with what they allow in it can allow a character to get all of the special defenses dirt cheap.  This is the easiest way to abuse an EC and why a good GM will be careful what they allow in it.   

Well that's one I haven't seen before.  Good for him!
 
 
 
Before going forward, let me say that I am not terribly familia with 4e Elemental Control, as I neber dound a compelling reason to move beyond 2e.  With that qualifier understood, I can honestly say that almost every over-stuffed or overpowered EC build I have ever run across has always been either a misunderstanding or deliberate misapplication of the EC rules.  In general, the overall,savings breaks out roughly equivalent to the 6e replacement "Unified Power," or about a -1/4 over all.  A truly experienced player can push that a bit, but in general (at least in 1 and 2e), if you werw usinf the rules correctly, the savings weren't huge.
 
I have always suspecyed that a lot of the hate directed at EC (at least, that which does not come from believing the objectively false idea that points equate to game balance and,character equality) comes from improperly-applied buulding rules.
 
 

Check with your GM specifically about powers that ordinarily are Endurance free but have taken the "Costs End" limitation.
 
Back in the day, most of us would allow such a power in an EC (though somw of us would not allow the cosr savings, and,instead made it a -0 Limitation as a requirment to put such a power into an elemental control.
 
 

The flight is fine as it normally costs END.  Not sure what Umberkeneseis is, if it is telekinesis it should be fine.  If I remember correctly Regeneration was a special power in 4th edition and does not cost END so cannot normally be put in an EC.  Check with you GM on that, if the GM is ok with it you can put it in.    
 
Each of the slots also get the limitation as well or you cannot put it on the EC.   So the cost of the EC and all slots are 17.   If the regeneration and flight works in bright light, you cannot put that limitation on the EC and the cost would be 25 for the EC and slots without the limitation.  
 

I think you are confusing a VPP for an elemental control.  With an elemental control there is no pool.  You pay a set amount for the EC and all powers in the EC subtract that cost from the active cost before applying any limitations.  All powers in the EC have to be at least twice the cost of the EC.
 
For example if you have a 25 point EC all power in the EC have to be at least 50 active points.  You subtract 25 (the cost of the EC) from all powers in the EC and then apply limitations.  If every slot in the EC has a limitation you can apply that limitation to the cost of the EC.  So if all his powers have the -1/2 limitation not working in bright light that can be applied to the cost EC as well as the powers.  In the above case the EC would cost 17 but still deduct 25 points from it.  Not all powers can be put in an EC.  In 4th edition you cannot put special powers in an EC.  I think all powers also have to cost END to be put in an EC, but that might be for 5th edition.  
 

And yet all of those special defenses could be purchased in one or more force fields and be perfectly legal in an EC.  "Special powers can only go in frameworks with GM permission" has resulted in a lot of variance between GMs on what can go into a framework.
 
What I saw evolve over the years as common design was a Swiss Army Multipower to hold a variety of Ultra slot attack powers, and an EC to hold a force field, a movement power and one or more utility powers.
 
Three 50 point powers in an EC would cost 100, rather than 150, points, the equivalent of a -1/2 limitation on all of the powers.  Make it 5 and it costs 150 rather than 250, but that's getting pretty expensive. It would work if you only wanted one attack power, or perhaps if you wanted a Constant attack power (like Darkness) and a Fire & Forget attack power (like Blast). If you wanted a variety of attack choices, Multipower was the go-to.  5 different attacks for 75 points was a lot more cost-effective.
 
Multipower for abilities you only need one at a time; EC for abilities you need all at the same time.
 
When Combined Attacks came out, it seemed like prohibiting these with powers in a framework was a really bad call, as that could have been a reason to put more than one attack in an EC (usable at the same time) rather than a multipower (use one at a time).  By the time that evolved to "if they can all be used at the same time, you can use them all in a combined attack", EC had evolved into "Unified Power".
 
 

You typical PC will actually have a negative cost.  The computers in the Hero System can control machinery or weapons.   They have stats like, OCV, & DCV which your typical PC have not use for so could be bought down bought down.  Even after purchasing the basic requirements for a computer the cost will still be in the negative.
 
For a PC I would probably go with the following stats DEX 10, INT, 10, OCV 0, DCV 0, OMCV 0, DMCV 0 SPD 2.  Throw in Absolute Time Since, Eidetic Memory, Lightning Calculator and Radio Perception/Transmit (Internet Access).  That would leave you about 27 points to buy skills and programs before you reach 0 points.  A hackers Computer will not really be all that much different.  It will probably have a slightly higher INT and a few more skills, but it still is not going to cost any real points.
 
The only time I would actually make a character pay for a computer is if it is powerful enough to actually make a difference.  I could see allowing a character to purchase a computer as skill levels with a focus limitation.  That would be the best way to simulate a hacker's computer. 

So is that a complication?  How many points is it worth?  😉

Computers are cheaper in terms of points in early 1980's campaigns because they are bulky and immobile.  

There are rules for building them, to be sure.  I have ignored them for years, and will continue to do so until some time after I am dead (I intend to haunt my books a bit before moving on).
 
As other have noted, if it is a normal everyday sort of thing, then you dont pay points for it.
 
So lets get to your "hacking computer."   I would start (and get lambasted for not following the letter of the rules, and then counter with I am following the spirit of the rules!    ) with skill levels as powers, buying levels only the skill bonuses I think puts it ahead of a "normal, everyday computer."  All comouters have eidetic memory and lightning calculator, for example.
 
so...   Security Systems plus 5 (or whatever seems right)
computer programing plus 5
Concealment (to cover your tracks; this one I would probably buy the whole skill, since any Concealment the character already has is likely not specifically Cyber-concealment.  If it is, then just buy some bonuses.)
Perhaps- and while it could be justified by a GM, I wouod be hard pressed to require it) some kind of computer-to-computer telepathy to represent forcibly removing data.  Again, I wouldn't, but there are GMs who believe that "if you can shoehorn it into the concept, then you absolutely must buy it."  In this case, however, I think programming (to break into systems and files) and concealment (to know where to look for the hidden gold) would cover it all quite nicely.
 
Take the total costs, add an appropriate focus limitation (if you can be deprived of the computer) and call it a day.
 
I might go so far as to borrow from the actual computer rules and divide by whatever the current discount is (one for five?  One for ten?) Before applying the Focus Limitation.
 
 
Done.  Computer.  Essentially, the light-up box is special effects for the skilks it facilitates.