Power Framework Question

[VRabubo]

I'm new playing Champions and still trying to work my head around power frameworks. I saw some nice explanations of them and have seen them used in some different ways, but I don't have access to all the books so a couple things I'm still unsure about. Like are there more than three frameworks and if so what are they? I have seen a few fantasy characters having something that looks like an Equipment Framework, is that different from the Champion's Frameworks? Mainly I would like to see a thread where people post various different ways to use all the frameworks available in the Hero System with points all clearly labeled and I think that would help me understand them better and show me some I might not have access to with my Champions book. SO, could people post some fun and interesting uses of frameworks with explanations?

[Khymeria]

@VRabubo Hey, welcome to the system. Which edition are you playing and what books do you have? We will get you squared away soon enough. 

[greypaladin_01]

Which edition you are using will be most helpful.   With each edition they change how frameworks operate and sometimes removing versions completely.   Others are optional rules that are not official to core, but can be used if GM feels it fits campaign

[VRabubo]

23 hours ago, Khymeria said:

@VRabubo Hey, welcome to the system. Which edition are you playing and what books do you have? We will get you squared away soon enough. 

I mostly want to see all of what is out there, but we are playing a mesh of 4th and 6th edition and I have access to 2nd edition, 6th Champions Complete book, and sometimes the 4th edition book (not often tho). I've been thinking about getting the Advanced players guide but they were sold out last I checked.

 

The GM is very open for what he will let in. Half the time we are even playing with Pathfinder characters too because we occasionally combine groups. However, I have definitely noticed that using a framework or key combination of powers and disadvantages (like equipment) makes a big difference for point economics to be effective.

Edited May 8, 2023 by VRabubo

[greypaladin_01]

The main ones offered in 6th are Multipower, Power Pools and the Unified Power Limitation.   There are some variants in the APG but I don't remember much about them off hand.

From at least 4/5 are going to be basically the same with the only difference being Elemental Controls, which Unified Power replaced.   But they essentially do the same thing, I think there are other posts going into more details on UP vs EC.

That really is it for the most part.  There are some variance on how the various Frameworks function by edition and the older (pre-4th) you go, the more different some things will look.

 

 

That being said, you mentioned Champions at first but then also Fantasy and Pathfinder.  Exactly what type of game are you trying to do with HERO?    Because completely separate from Frameworks are suggested rules and systems based on type of game.

[Khymeria]

Often you can do something more than one way, but there is typically a way that will feel more inline with your campaign and how the GM does things. For 6E you can think of Spider-Man's webshooters, Hawkeye's arrows, and Cyclop's optic blast as multipowers. VPP are Batman's utility belt, Dr. Strange's vast compliment of spells, a ring from the Green Lantern Corps. Unified Power is something that is often misused, abused, and should be much more rare than it is. Most Hero System characters, including the ones in my books, Book of Templates I and II don't have it. In my personal games though I see it a lot and reject it. I would get with your GM about it before building a character with it. Only In Alternate ID is another kind of framework I see far more than I should and typically in an abusive fashion. But I digress, there are usually multiple ways so if there was a specific example of what you are attempting, we could probably offer even more help.

[unclevlad]

The structures of 4E and 6E don't really mesh.  There are implicit, built-in assumptions that clash violently if you try to mix them.  I'd pick one or the other and basically stick with it.  Pathfinder's even worse in this regard.  I'm not saying it's an inferior system, but its premises are totally different.

[Duke Bushido]

4 hours ago, Khymeria said:

. Unified Power is something that is often misused, abused, and should be much more rare than it is. .

 

 

Why?

 

I can pay next to nothing for the ols school movement Multipower- some ultra alots on Flight; Flight with a high NCM; Running; Swimming; and maybe some Swimming with a high NCM,  then perhaps some ultra slots on Enerfy Blast, EB area effect; EB affect Desolid, another ultra MP for FF 40 ED, FF 40 PD, and FF 20/20,

 

Yet a -1/4 for "Antler Powers"-  say two different attacks, some missile deflection, and a highly specific sort of entangle-  throw an HTH KA in there for goring something--  is just too much, should be extremely uncommon, etc, etc.

 

The whole discussion just falls on its face when the other option is "yo, how about a power pool, then?"

 

 

[Grailknight]

Unified Power is fine if villains with Adjustment Powers show up often enough for it to reasonably come into play. The issue is finding a balance. Some GM's rarely have them and in that case it's free points.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Grailknight

[unclevlad]

I can't speak to the frequency Unified Power should be applied.  I don't use it much;  I think the last one was with an MP with TK (OMCV vs. DCV), Energy Blast (also OMCV vs. DCV), a Mental Entangle (re-interpreted as a mental power...OMCV vs. DMCV, acts against Ego), and mental-based Flash (also OMCV vs. DMCV even with the increased cost, and defense is Ego Def)...so they're kind of odd mental powers.  I didn't give it to anything else.

 

As far as abusive...some of this relates to Drains having fairly finicky definitions...they're fairly specific, in most cases, or they get really expensive.  That's even assuming the player/GM recognizes the potentially big downside:  drain one, drain all.

 

It's also potentially like OIAID, as Khymeria mentioned...just slap it onto everything.  This can pretty clearly be asking for trouble...but GMs may not make you pay for taking either limitation.  Another would be Focus.

 

VPP...well, yes, if one cares to, there are all kinds of scary-dirty tricks to be played.....

 

Movement MPs and VPPs are fun.   A VPP that's for nothing but Teleport makes more sense than you might think at first glance, particularly if you try to move significant mass, that adder is a KILLER. 

[Grailknight]

I also should add that it doesn't bother me because I apply the "Drain one, Drain all" mechanic to Multipowers and VPP's also. Powers drawing from a common pool seems to me to be powers with the same source.

[Duke Bushido]

18 hours ago, Grailknight said:

I also should add that it doesn't bother me because I apply the "Drain one, Drain all" mechanic to Multipowers and VPP's also.

 

THANK YOU!

 

I was starting to think I was the only one!

 

Okay, if I drain one of your spider powers in your EC, you lose clinging, bonus STR, Bonus DEX, Spider sense.....

 

And your completely mechanical web shooters.....

 

If I drain your gun MP, you only lose the specific attack I drained, and evey other attack in the gun works fine....

 

If your turbine boots give you swimming and flight, and I drain them, I only drain one power, in spite of both powers coming from the same pair of turbines.....

 

Ugh.

 

 

 

 

 

18 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

Powers drawing from a common pool seems to me to be powers with the same source.

 

 

Yep.  It is _one_ power: Power Pool.

 

Drain that.

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[LoneWolf]

One thing to keep in mind is that Unified Power is only a -1/4 limitation.  This is about the same value as the power not working in an uncommon circumstance.   So even if drains are fairly rare that is still an appropriate value.

 

 Considering how effect drains are even if the Unified Power limitation is being used, there should be a fair amount of them in most campaigns.   For 60 points I can have a 6d6 drain that will reduce a characteristic by 21 points.  If the drain targets INT or EGO that will reduce most characters to a 0 unless they have power defense or have an extremely high score.  Either one of those drains means the character has less than a 40% chance of being able to act. 

[Khymeria]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Why?

 

I can pay next to nothing for the ols school movement Multipower- some ultra alots on Flight; Flight with a high NCM; Running; Swimming; and maybe some Swimming with a high NCM

 

 

Usually I keep an eye on movement multipowers as well. There are a lot of options that can be done. I just try to keep it simple so less experienced players are on a more even footing. The why is also I’ve had some players that no matter the character or concept, everyone of their characters is built with some combination of these things. Like I said, it’s fine, just in my game I try to eliminate mechanical massage to have more balance. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Khymeria

[Duke Bushido]

Might as well add this, though it may or may not be tangential:

 

It is no secret that I like to make fun of the bow and arrow superhero.  It is generally good-natured (generally.  It isn't a concept I care for, but I am not going to disallow them; I know they are popular).

 

Let me tell you who started me on this path or archer hatred:

 

My own brother J.

 

He built an archer, complete with a trick arrow MP filled with Ultras.  I reviewed and okayed the character.  Now before anyone selected or built their characters, I gave them a general layout of the plot, where the campaign was (hopefully) going to go, who they might face, etc, etc.

 

This included a guy with the power to drain tecnology-based powers (could reduce equipment to dust).

 

At one point, the villain grabbed J's bow and did his thing, starting to destroy the bow.

 

J responds with "I hit him with two electro STUN arrows."

 

How do you expect to do that?

 

"One in each hand, stab him in the neck from each side."

 

Okay, I tell you what- _technically_, losing the bow is draining your MP pool, but given your SFX, I see why this should work.  Make a DEX roll to see if you can grab both--

 

"Yeah; I dont have to.  They are regular powers; the arrows are SFX."

 

"Right, but without the bow-"

 

He spun his character sheet around to me,  "the bow is unnecessary."

 

I _thought_ I had read the character before I approved it.   I had not read it closely enough.....

 

Evrything in his MP was bought as normal attacks-  that is, HTH attacks, or without range.

 

The bow was listed separately.  It was the cost of adding Ranged to non-ranged attacks, bought through a focus.  The MP was _not_ bought through a focus (though it did have lumited shots on everything.

 

I had missed that.

 

And that is how, in the mid-eighties, we stumbled across the idea of what is now called a Naked Advantage.

 

(Oh, and the villain went down: he had a weakness against electrical SFX).  Granted, J was throwing his arrows or leaping in and stabbing villains with them, until they swung back by HQ.

 

And that was when my ire with archers started.   it is really J slipping one past me that I am grumbling about.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[Khymeria]

2 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

One thing to keep in mind is that Unified Power is only a -1/4 limitation.  This is about the same value as the power not working in an uncommon circumstance.   So even if drains are fairly rare that is still an appropriate value.

I think it matters what powers are Unified. Resistant PD/ED, Blast, STR all Unified is uncommon. Desolid, Regeneration, and Telepathy are probably nearly unique. 

[Khymeria]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

Movement MPs and VPPs are fun.   A VPP that's for nothing but Teleport makes more sense than you might think at first glance, particularly if you try to move significant mass, that adder is a KILLER. 

 

I do like Movement multipowers for handling situations like these or speedsters. Characters based around movement as their thing. 

[unclevlad]

24 minutes ago, Khymeria said:

I do like Movement multipowers for handling situations like these or speedsters. Characters based around movement as their thing. 

 

As was stated, a 2 slot MP simply for combat and NC is almost de rigeur.  Non combat movement is fun...it's NOT often that important in the game because The Fight Doesn't Start Until the PCs Arrive.  600 miles an hour is 10 miles a minute...so it still takes 3 minutes, or 15 full turns, for the PCs to travel 30 miles.  But the battle site's not halfway to being a wasteland, or the thieves are barely into their job, or....  Y'all know what I mean.  We handwave this.

 

OTOH, for *me*...on a personal scale...being able to travel quickly is very, very high on my personal wish list, so I look at that kind of thing a LOT.  But systemically, it isn't that important.

 

But combat half move is useful...in part because I tend to be a tactical thinker.

 

The 2 have to be built relatively differently, tho, for costing.  In standard 6E, for running and flight, you're largely stuck with NCMs.  MegaScale is TOO much.  5 SPD, 12m means 60m per turn, 300m per minute.  +1 MegaScale makes that 300 km per minute...that's about 11,000 mph, or about Mach 14.  NCMs add up fast, tho, in terms of cost...and you still need to keep an eye on END use because you have to burn this END for an extended period.  5 SPD, 10m base, x64 NCM is 576 mph for 35 points in the movement power.  That's around commercial jet speed...the 777 is a bit higher, others are somewhat lower.  The sweet spot for Flight or Running is 10m...then start doubling.  (I built my High Scale Movement advantage to fill the void between the two.)

 

With Teleport it's even worse, because now MegaScale IS on the table, and it's a fairly expensive advantage.  Plus, for a good, general teleporter you need Usable Simultaneously, and probably Safe Blind Teleport.  So you need to keep the base cost down.  Note again:  same build pattern difference between combat and non-combat powers.

 

I think the only character concept where movement is a central theme is the speedster.   There aren't many flyers, say, who integrate their flight into their combat strategy, that I can recall.  Maybe some who embrace The Art of the Strafe.

[Grailknight]

But if the first level of Megascale was only x10 then that issue is solved, right? So that's what I implemented, and it works for me, YMMV.

[LoneWolf]

Personally I don’t have a problem with characters saving points for having a tight concept.   The Idea behind Unified Power is that the all the powers are actually part of a single power that can be applied in multiple ways.  It can allows a character to purchase powers they should have, but might otherwise skip because they cannot afford them.  Like anything else it can be abused, but that does not mean it has no place in the game.  As long as the powers fit the special effect it is not a problem.  The problem comes when the special effect is so vague that anything can be put in it.  Unified power with the special effect of flame is fine, but unified power with the special effect of super powers is not going to cut it.  

[unclevlad]

33 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

But if the first level of Megascale was only x10 then that issue is solved, right? So that's what I implemented, and it works for me, YMMV.

 

I defined High Scale as x3 for +1/4, x10 for +1/2, x30 for +3/4, and x100 for +1.  You do get to use your NCMs, even the base one, so for example, 18m base flight, +5 points for an NCM --> 40.  With x10 High Scale, it's 400m per phase.  It's also 18+5 x1.5, 34 points.  But your OCV and DCV are as per Megascale, and you can't use it for move throughs or move-bys.  I do still use Megascale...but almost entirely for Teleport.  Single-jump range is the key there, not velocity.

 

Obviously if yo want to build pure speed, you keep the base move down, but I've never liked that.  I think some minimums should remain in place, particularly for movement.  I'll grant that I don't necessarily stick to that with Teleport, tho.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Personally I don’t have a problem with characters saving points for having a tight concept. 

 

In my mind, it kind of violates a basic Hero rule: you get what you pay for.  If you get points off, it should be due to a drawback, not a tight concept.  Elemental Control had few drawbacks but lots of advantages, and it wasn't exactly challenging to come up with an excuse for why these powers belonged together.

 

Multipower you have lots of drawbacks, such as "you only have enough points for x powers at once" instead of being able to use everything at the same time.  Power Pools are expensive, there's no cost break at all really.  Elemental Control was a bit of an outlier in that, and as has been pointed out elsewhere, with the removal of figured characteristics, stat-based characters aren't getting the benefit of cost breaks in figured characteristics, so power-based ones don't need a break to equal that effect.

[unclevlad]

10 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Power Pools are expensive, there's no cost break at all really.  

 

VPPs offer flexibility, so you don't have to pay for it with advantages like Variable Special Effects or Allocatable, available on some defense powers, lets you shift points between the different defense types.  

 

And this can easily be viewed as dubious, but...for a combat VPP, you generally don't buy No Skill Roll.  It's too expensive in most cases.  Well, OK...you're gonna buy your Power skill up to something fairly good anyway, right?  If we're talking 18 INT, and a 60 point control cost, to get to a 14- requires 7 levels.  That's 17 points.  Well, taking it to a 17- is only 6 more.  And here's the dubious part:  slap the common modifier Requires a Skill Roll on.  Your Power skill's already the natural choice, and you've already paid for it.  Yeah, you have to make the roll, but that's why you buy the roll up.

 

What this means is, everything in your VPP is now getting a -1/2 limitation.  In a 6E VPP, pool size and control cost are completely separate.  Pool size is character points.  So you can have pool size 41, control 62...say, for a VPP where you have 10 dice at 1/2 END, or 12 dice at full, for a swath of basic attack powers, and you can tweak for AoEs or whatnot.  You can also define the pool size as much larger, so you throw your Flight in there, with both combat and non-combat modes.  With the -1/2 limitation applying. 

 

An extreme form of this is a control cost of 30, with a pool size of around 100...yeah, 5 separate 30 point powers, if you keep the skill roll.  What you MAY do is buy 0 Phase to switch powers.  What can you buy?  Defense in layers.  10/10 Resistant and 50% DR...physical and energy are separate.  That's 3 slots.  HTH attacks.  Movement.  Characteristics...30 points means as much as +3 SPD, or +3 OCV and DCV, or +20 STR, 0 END...combined with 4d6 AP HA at 1/2 END for a Harvey Wallbanger configuration.  For No Skill Roll?  A smaller pool size, enough for probably 1 power, where that power can take other limitations.  Or when the entire pool is gonna be bought with OIAID.  ESPECIALLY when you can take a fairly large Limited Powers in the VPP.  Quite often this works out better in an MP, tho...basically, the double cost savings of keeping the skill roll on the VPP, and slapping RSR as a common modifier, is huge.

 

Basically, the Hero rules are open-ended, and there's almost no inherent balance checking.  That's left up to the GM and players.  Character creation is an exercise in massaging the rules to get the most we can get, while keeping the drawbacks to what we can accept.  That assessment is highly personal.  The rules allow point shaving in MANY ways...OIAID, focus, the double-use skill roll VPP, ECs, multiform abuse.  For combat powers, Limited Range is your friend because the range mods kill your attack effectiveness anyway, long before you hit the limit for Limited Range.  

 

I agree that the notion of "you get what you pay for, and no more" is a goal, but it tends to be a lot easier to enforce at the micro level, not the macro level. 

[Duke Bushido]

8 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Multipower you have lots of drawbacks,

 

I can honestly,say that it has been,over thirty years sonce I have seen a Multipower with a drawback, period.

 

A Multipower has the _potential_ to have a drawback, but it doesnt have to.  It gets a bonus anyway.  Ultrasound on your movement and it becomes quite the bonus, with no drawbacks.  Only want one or two selectable advantages on a power?  Ultra slots give quite a discount there, too, and without drawbacks.

 

Multipowers give free points, period.  Same,as Elemental Control.  I dont care because it didn't take just a handful of characters to figure out that points do not, will not, and cannot provide balance, period.

 

Honest opinion?  Someone had a hard time figuring out how to do a proper EC, bad mouthed until he got repeated, and here we are, finding faults in EC that are by no means exclusive to it.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

such as "you only have enough points for x powers at once" instead of being able to use everything at the same time. 

 

I am not saying it won't ever happen, but I have get to personally encounter a situation that was made worse because I couldn't Teleport and Swim at the same time.

 

And these are the multipowers that players build; these are the Multipower that GM build for their villains (though most of us do tend to ensure that our villains might be inconvenienced in one or two possible ways).

 

My Desolidifcation goes in _one_ Multipower; my Energy Blast Affects Solid goes in a different one.  My Forcefield goes in one; my running goes in a different one, etc.   We use multipowers to optimize our points expenditures, period.  Even when there is a genuine "complication"  (I cant use my flight and my Force field at the same time or some auch), the idea that we are soaking a disadvantage is entirely a fabrication:  this charavyer is exactly as we conceived him to be.  With that being the case, has he actually been deprived of somethinf he should have had when we concieved him without it?

 

All of the "you get what you pay for" is an absolute mantra at one moment, and just like "build exactly what you want," is conveniently forgotten when it comes time to make the case for Disadvantages and Limitations anf Frameworks, in spite of the fact that you are getting _exactly what you wanted_.

 

Elemental Controls are bad bevause there is no "real limitation."   Multipowers are _good_ because _it is possible_ to have a "real limitation_."  Possible?  Yes.  Mandated?  Not once; not ever.  Build your multipowers so that you tuen off powers you would never want to use in conjunction anyway.  What have you suffered or bartered away?  Nothing.  Well, your overall cost; you bartered some of that away.

 

 

8 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Power Pools are expensive, there's no cost break at all really. 

 

Buy 12d6 of every power, straight out, no advantages or Limitations.

 

Buy enough Power Pool to create 12d6 of any power.  Do you have them all?  Not at the same time, but without anywhere near the investment.

 

To keep it fair, build 12d6 of every power with the same limitation your power pool has:  only one power at a time.

 

Then consider that your power pool can provide additional chracterisitics boons and powers that are not broken down into sice of effect.  The price gets better and better!  12d6 of everything man has not only paid too much for his abilities, he cant opt to trade them for a quick 30 inches of flight, either.

 

 

If after this exoeriment the cost are similar, I will not only eat your hat, I will give you thirty minutes to draw a crowd.

 

 

 

The argument against EC was flawed from day, propped up for decades by carefully ignoring the same problems in all other frameworks, and having gone away officially (for most of you), we can all feel justified for parroting the same flawed arguments because "Well, we must have been right."

 

  

 

 

 

 

[Khymeria]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Multipowers give free points, period.  Same,as Elemental Control.  I dont care because it didn't take just a handful of characters to figure out that points do not, will not, and cannot provide balance, period.

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

This is the way. You have to examine every build on a case by case basis. Experience is irreplaceable for eyeballing balance.