dsatow

My first step usually is to find out the power level of the game.  In this example, I'll assume a standard superhero game which would be 400 pts with 75 points in complications. 

The power level is basically the average number of dice thrown at what CVs and at what speed.  For our example, the average power level is 12DC, at an 8 CV and 5 Speed. 

Sometimes, GMs will give you a maximum power level.  If the GM gives you this, they generally don't want you to make all your abilities hit these maximums on a regular basis.  This means, that without pushing, using maneuvers you will be using often, your damage and CV should not exceed these numbers.  As an example, say a GM has denoted a maximum of 15DC at a 8CV.  You create a character with a 60 strength.  This is well within the power level right?  But you add 60m(30") of flight and you move through targets a lot doing 18d6 of damage, the GM might have issues with that amount of damage despite the penalties to your CVs.

At 12d6 average damage, if we assume about 15 stun on average past defenses, that would mean 27 points of defense.  This is calculated by multiplying 12 by 3.5, the average on a 1d6 and subtracting the amount of stun we would take on an average hit.  The big takeaway from this is that we should have 27 PD/ED on average.  For more on this calculation read the next paragraph, but all you really need to know is the number 27 for defenses.

15 points of stun done on average is in most games a good gauge as to the amount of damage the GM wants to occur.  This makes about 3 hits on a player with 40 stun on average before they go unconscious.  Let's look at what happens if you increase your defenses to 30.  At 30 points, only 12 will get through on average.  A 40 stun PC would then expect to take about 4 hits.  Go to 33, then it's about 5 hits.  At 35, only 7 points of stun is leaking through and it would take 6 hits before going unconscious.  Now this is all well and good from just calculating damage, but you need to remember that most attacks will have around a 62.50% chance to hit if you are at average DCV.  So you can effectively double the amount of hits to attacks.  So at 30 points of defense, 4 hits would be about 8 attacks or about 2 turns of combat.  Most combats last about 1-2 turns, really.  Combatants start to run out of end, charges, and/or stun by the second turn on average.  You can do better calculations at 62.50% but for the most part doubling works fine.

So I figure I'd make a how to build a hero topic.  This is just how I build a hero.  Other people may build a hero differently.  If you already know how to build a hero easily, the poll is not for you.  It's for people new to HERO.  This is for 6th edition, but most editions I do the same.

Ran this character as a blackmailed superhero.  Didn't do a lot of damage as the hero was trying to avoid doing damage to the PC heroes, but when it came time to do damage, was fairly effective.  Though he ran through about 2/3 of his arrows.

Ran her as a blackmailed superhero to fight the PCs.  She did a hell of a lot of damage grown but she kept pulling her punches and then exactly hitting her targets (which means full damage).

17 hours ago, SangurianSoul said:

So (in your opinions) the capacity to freeze standing water is really just an SFX? Or maybe even just a Power Skill for basic use? I guess it really does kind of come down to the "Does it actually do something to alter the flow of the game? If yes, then its worth points"

Depends on how useful it is to the game.  In general, if it has a combat effect, then you pay points for it.  If it's very useful in non-combat situations, you generally pay points for it.  If its sometime useful to only colorful during role playing, generally the GM will hand wave it especially if you have a very tight character concept.  Whether you need to pay points for something is usually something you need to talk with your GM.  Most GMs will say the above in my experience.

Example: Iceman in the Fox XMen movies makes an ice figurine in his hand.  This is colorful and most GMs won't make you pay for a power to simulate it.  If Iceman froze the ground to make his pursuers slip and fall, then that's a combat effect and a GM would say to pay points for it.  If Iceman wanted to make Ice Bridges to bridge gaps between the tops of buildings, then the GM makes the call if that's a very useful in non-combat situations.  If the players are seldom on top of buildings in a city, the GM might just let Iceman's entangle power do the trick, rather than forcing him to buy a bridging power.

It similar to restrainable but might be worth more a limitation based on the setting and what the hero has.  I would avoid actual declarations of how much water per liter and let the GM decide but who knows your GM might accept that. 

For example, Aqualad in Young Justice has a backpack full of water so the limitation might be only worth -1/2. Its never declared how much water is in the backpack but its enough to form water blades.  But if you rarely had sufficient water with you and almost none in the environment it can range from -1 to -1 1/2.  It depends on the GM and their campaign.

If you are using your PRE attack to influence a person in a positive way or where appearance may make a difference.

Ex: Say your character is a Hollywood Starlet or Supermodel.  You need to rent a room for you and your party but you are in one of the hotel's servicing a convention.  You could use a presence attack (I am a star!) to cow tow the front desk manager into giving you the better rooms and denigrating the worse room to conventioneers who haven't arrived yet compared to persuasion which doesn't rely as much on sheer presence as compared to talking.

Sadly, no other votes?  Oh well, two votes doesn't tell me if I am going in the right direction or not.

One of the problems with the V&V conversions for HERO is that the V&V characters in their own game system vary wildly in power the original old system.  You can have characters that did 1d4+2 with characters that did 1d20+6.

It is better to use the system numbers and dice as a comparison to power level for the HERO conversion than to use a straight algorithm to convert.  Even if the conversion says that the power only does 6d6 Blast damage, if the character is in a 12d6 game, think about making it at least 10d6 if not 12. 

So for the hell of it, this is how I would make an archer in 6th.

So in response to a thread in Hero System Discussion (link), I made this character.

Power Level: Game Average: 12DC, 8 CV, 5 Spd

Sex: Male

Age: 23

Height: 178cm (5'10")

Weight: 60kg (132.28 lbs)

Eye Color: Brown

Hair Color: Black

Handed: Right

Background: 

Beau Long was playing with his cowboys and indian toys.  He always like the indians and how they use bows and arrows instead of a gun.  While playing he heard shouting outside in his bedroom window and saw a family of three get attacked by a robber.  The robber killed the parent and fled.  Beau went to bed thinking if there were indians there, the poor boy wouldn't have become an orphan.  On that day, Beau Long decided he would become like Robin Hood and the Indians and fight injustice with bow and arrows.

Personality/Motivation:

OK, so he's a nut case vigilante.  At least his heart is in the right place.

Quote:

You have failed this city!  Heh, sorry, always wanted to say that.

Powers/Tactics:

Outside in the city he will use mostly sniping tactics and move.  In more confined areas where can not use the swing line arrow, he will resort to martial arts.  He always delays until before his next segment in case he needs to dodge or dive for cover.  While his DCV is very good, he can be a bit quishy when hit.

Appearance: 

He's 5'10 and athletically fit.  Dressed in black leather and wielding a aluminum composite folding longbow, he looks straight out of some gritty television or movie TV show.

Notes:

With the quiver, Longbow has a fairly good arsenal for about 3 turns of combat just in shooting.  With or without his bow as a club, his martial arts also make him a very effective close in fighter.  His one big problem is his actual defenses are a bit low for a 12DC game.  A 62 act. pt 10d6 AoE 4m Radius attack will only just barely not stun on average him doing 15 points of stun past defenses.  A straight up 12d6 attack will most likely stun him doing 22 points past defenses.

The background is total cheese.  And not even real cheese but pasteurized prepared cheese product.  If you use this character as a base for your own personal character, please come up with something better.

Logbow.pdf

Thinking of using her in a encounter with PCs in a game I run...

7 hours ago, AndersonSmith66 said:

Why is a quadcopter better than a helicopter 🤔🚀✈️ ?

https://oscarliang.com/quadcopter-helicopter-compare-cons-pro/#:~:text=Although quadcopters are less stable,and also cheaper to make.

There are lots of articles from a Google search but the general gist its not unless its small.

6 hours ago, BarretWallace said:

Dogs have owners.  Cats have staff.

A dog gets fed and they think that person feeding me is like god.

A cat gets fed and they think that I am being fed I am like god.

Dogs are best friends.

Cats are the master of slaves.

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I would say that if you really liked Find weakness pre-6th then just House Rule it back in. 

I like the concept but not the implementation.  Thus the RFC to try and figure out a better way of doing this.

2 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I'll note that I really don't like reducing defenses because that leads to nasty memory issues and speed issues.  Did the GM reduce their defense against your attack?  By the right amount?  Only against your attack?  You probably have to remind them of the exact amount (you are keeping track, right?) anyways.  And then they have to do subtraction instead of you doing a bit more addition, so that's slower, and there's the general cognitive load of all this, and it's just a big mess at the table.  Far far easier on the GM if you just roll more dice when appropriate and tell the GM the damage number that they do the same thing with as anything else. 

This is actually what I am looking for with an RFC (Request for comment):  Problems with implementation.  Complexity and tracking is a problem.  Perhaps, changing it to single number of defense penetration per character would be an easier figure to remember.  Then its a straight value for the player or GM to remember.  When I first thought of this, I did not think this would be any worse than multiple drains to multiple defenses but I can see your point.

2 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I agree that the old version of FW was powerful, but I don't think this is much weaker in theory.  A fairly comparable investment into this version should get better results over an extended fight, since you can retry indefinitely with no penalties and you're making linear progress. 

The key here was extended fights to delay the linear progress making it a battle of attrition, but I can see your point.  Especially if a character got really lucky.  So a trailing effectiveness feature needs to be built into the power.  Maybe a penalty to the roll based on previous rolls.

2 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Also, you could double-tap FW on your first Phase and get a pretty hefty amount of defense reduction for the entire fight, which is very tempting if you're starting on P12 and most of the STUN you put out by attacking would be post-12'd away anyways.  It's not like you have to worry about the FW turning off either, being unable to use it for a full Turn is such a long time that any enemy capable of eluding you for that long is either outright immune to your FW and just didn't have that Invisibility or whatever on at the start or has such a mobility edge that they can leave or take all the Recoveries (and probably attacks) they want in total safety and thus you're not winning anyways. 

The 1 turn limit is based on the unconsciousness rules since you can be considered "heavily dazed" between 0-9 negative stun.  If an enemy can elude your attacks for that long, you generally have other tactical issues to think about.  But the mobility brings up a point to mind (not about maintaining the FW but in concept).  Without the aid of super powers, should you really be able to maintain FW when you are say over 100 m away (a football field's distance)?  Should you really be allowed to make find weakness rolls at a great distance if you can't see details.  At some point you can't make enough details to reliably do find weakness and that point is beyond the range of just seeing the target.

18 hours ago, death tribble said:

I'm completely baffled. Which character and from what medium is this ?

This is from a manga but the name escapes me at the moment.  They even made a live action Japanese movie of it.  

<edit> GANTZ<edit>

Figures I'd remember a little after hitting enter.

A couple of things I see Reduce Penetration used on is a version of attacks where there is a large number of attacks but at the same time autofire doesn't cut it for some reason.

In one game, a 4d6 RKA with reduced penetration was defined as a two pistol shot to the same point on the person.  It could have been autofire, but the PC wanted to always hit the same spot with the two gun fire.  This made the damage on par with two guns and the stun damage much more in line with the game.

In another game, the speedster had an energy blast no range defined as multiple punches to the same spot.  The reason he didn't use autofire was due to the end cost.  The attack gave him a reasonable effect with out a massive drain on End.

1 minute ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

And to what end?  What's the proposed benefit of making the house rule, or the problem you intend to solve, or the new feature you're trying to add that was clearly missing? 

If you've succeeded, what should the success look like beyond "Find Weakness exists again"?  What should your version do that a straight port of 5th ed's wouldn't? 

Well, the player side of me (thus empathetic to players who want Find Weakness), would like to build the characters with Find Weakness.  The concept of being a martial artist who finds holes in a person defenses is an interesting ability.  The ancient master who after a couple of phases unleashes devastating attack.  The boxer who is on the defensive and then finds the hole in his opponents defenses to win the match.  AP as find weakness seems like a cop out in truth.  So a desire to make a character that feels the way you want rather than force a kludge.

The GM side of me notes that halving on a roll is just too effective.  And multiple halvings is worse.  It makes it difficult to create villains without all of a sudden all villains having lack of weakness for no other reason than to prevent PCs cutting their defenses in half multiple times.  I don't know about you, but I dislike targeting players when creating villains(basically making villains that target the players inefficiencies).  There is a small part of me who wants a villain with find weakness, but it doesn't speak up very often.  This is mainly because supervillains don't need to watch out for things like point totals.

So the goal here is to reintroduce find weakness to players without the problems of the older versions of find weakness, keeping the feel of piercing defenses, while keeping the mechanics fairly clean.

6 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

What's the mission statement here?  I don't know what your personal goals for this revision are, and without knowing them I can't say anything constructive. 

I am trying to create a generic house rule for all HERO games in 6th ed. for find weakness.  To be honest, for all my "fixes", I am almost rewriting Hero 6th.

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Anyway...how would this work on a mixed defense...a target that has, say, 20 Def, 10 normal, 10 resistant?  If I'm firing a normal attack, I clearly don't care about the distinction, so I want to reduce the normal because each roll will work a whole lot better.  What if I've got the Resistant as Impenetrable, but not the normal?  What if I have it as impermeable?  Think a classic force field, with the normal defense being the character's personal toughness.  What defenses exist...especially if this is cumulative?   Can it work against a defense bought with invis power effects?

Ahhh, I was wondering if I should make that more clear.  The idea is that you must be able to see the obvious layered defenses.  So the skill rolls would be per defensive power.  If you wore armor (OIF resistant), have PD, and had more resistant define as a force field, each obvious power would need to be known and to be rolled for separately.  If you have an invisible power, then you don't have a discriminatory sense to detect the defense so it would not be affected.  I don't see how impermeable would affect your defenses in such a way to stop find weakness.

So I updated the original post about the need to sense the defense.

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

I would NOT allow the option of applying this to hardened/impenetrable.  Either say it is, with the lowering effectiveness, or don't.  I don't generally like "with GM permission" unless there's clear guidance as to why the GM should allow it.  

I am trying to create a house rule for all my games.  This just says I can disallow it for a genre if I want.  For heroic games, I don't think it should work for hardened/impenetrable defenses.  For supers, I'll allow it.

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Still, I start from the position that this is a poor idea from the start.  Decreasing defenses is the same as increasing damage conditionally.  That needs to be factored into the cost...or, be quite expensive, as it is with CSVs.  I'm very worried about the ambush aspect, where the ambusher can have 2-3 phases to turn the target's defenses into Swiss cheese.  

The original version halved defenses.  The 5th version halved one defensive power at a time.  To be honest, an ambush situation is just a bad situation for the target all around.  From 1/2 DCV and 2x damage,  I think your defenses dropping is probably the least of your worries.  

I made the bow +6 penalty ranged OCV mod levels for a group of attacks OAF and +3d6 HA OAF.  The trick arrows were a quiver OIF multipower.  The arrows were OAF (multiple focii or less effective) with charges slots.  A PC could take the bow away and the archer could still throw arrows at a target but they wouldn't be as good unless they were close.

I could see a small pocket on most costumes to hold 1-2 credit cards and a key.  The Avengers ID card I believe was designed by Tony Stark and effectively was validation of Avenger status (Perk membership), A Diamond Level Credit line, and a communicator all rolled into the size and weight of a credit card.  It also had a secret ID and could disguise itself as a student ID or drivers license.

I don't remember where I read that originally but this is the Avengers Wiki link.

So this is me, trying to get my GM and PC halves to a compromise.  It brings back the concept of piercing and adds more value to hardening/impenetrable defenses.

FIND WEAKNESS

3,5,8 Character Points for an 11- roll, Cost: 3,5, or 8 Character Points dependent on level; +1 to roll per +2 points

     Find Weakness allows you to erode a target’s defenses slowly.  Each time you make your find weakness roll, you subtract one from the appropriately declared defense of the target.  Find weakness also allows you to determine the relative strength and type of defense (resistant, non-resistant, hardened, and impenetrable).  Exact numbers are not given, but you can determine if the defense is weak (less than 5 typically) or strong (more than 10 typically).  You can also determine if there is a change in defense, an increase or a decrease, but not by how much.  Even though the character[DS1]   may not know by how much a defense increases or decreases, they can make educated guesses based on if the defense went from weak to strong or vice versa.  A person who makes a successful find weakness check can determine if the target has no defenses (0).

     Using a Find Weakness roll requires a discriminatory targeting sense such as sight and a half phase.  The discriminatory targeting sense is used to determine the defenses. Any ability which affects your targeting sense also affects this skill roll.  Each roll of Fins Weakness only affects one defensive power at a time.  Find weakness is a precision combat skill and thus does not work with attacks defined as general body damage such as area of effects.  There is no limit to the number of find weakness rolls.  All find weakness effects fade if, in a single turn, the character is not able to take a find weakness against the target.  This does not mean the character must take a find weakness roll during this time, just that the character has the option to take a roll during this time.  Being unconscious for a turn, losing sight of the target, etc. will all cause the find weakness to fade.

     You may not buy Find Weakness at the familiarity level; the minimum cost is 3 points for a single attack.  At the 5-point level, you are buying find weakness for a group of related attacks.  At the 8-point level, you are buying find weakness for all attacks. 

If you make your find weakness roll by more, you can subtract more defenses from the target than a single pip.  If you are finding a weakness against non-resistant PD or ED, you may subtract 1 extra defense per extra point you make your roll by.  If you are finding a weakness against a resistant PD or ED, you may subtract 1 extra defense per every two points you make a roll by.[DS2] 

     Normally, find weakness will not work against hardened nor impenetrable defenses.  If your GM allows it, you may find weakness against hardened or impenetrable defenses.  In these cases, for every 2 you make your roll by against non-resistant defenses(or 3 you make your roll by against resistant defenses), you subtract 1 extra point of defense against the attack.  Find weakness works before any advantage on the power takes effect (e.g. Armor Piercing).  You may never find weakness on a defense such that you take the defense below 0.

My first suggestion would be Mystic or Miss Tick.  But Greywind beat me to it.

I usually start using words from a thesaurus.  Here's some ideas I came up with that I think might be cool from the thesaurus.

Moonlight

Sneakthief

Owl

Pilf (short for pilferer)

Purloin

Minx

Scamp

Rogue

Faye

Pixie

Sprite

Mischief

Prank

Rascal