RDU Neil

I actually love the use of PRE in my games, but I make PRE Attacks actually take time and need to go off just like any other attack. And I give players an "Ego Roll" to shake off the effect, (with minuses or after time passes if high enough) though I can't remember whether that is in the rules or not. I've done it that way so long. Also, I encourage appropriate PRE attacks by players... beating down several thugs then pointing at the rest "Who's next" and they all start running away, whatever. The concept of PRE attacks is awesome... it is just the RAW is grossly broken.

I get this argument, but to me that is a really limited view of what "hero" means. Is a hero only the one who supports the status-quo of a mid-20th Century America? What about the hero who fights for the disadvantaged members of society who are being abused by a corrupt law enforcement system? Take that to the level of a god-like character of Superman or whoever... why isn't he a hero for overthrowing 40,000 years of human "civilization" that only exists by having an expendable workforce to exploit, and instead ushers in a era of peace and prosperity for all under a benevolent dictatorship? Seems pretty heroic to me. And yes, when it comes to the science, there isn't a need to have it all detailed out like true physics, but being extremely consistent (like Star Wars is not... I rather groan at all the absurd inconsistencies in Star Wars 'science' all the time)... where as B-5 (great show... terrible acting... but great show) really worked hard to be internally consistent with its demonstrations of science and super-science. It doesn't have to be perfect, but the effort needs to be there.

Actually, I'd totally agree with that. The long running games were exactly that... people with powers, and what does that mean? It is what I've wanted for nearly fifty years of reading comics... it is what superhero comics promise ("Here is this fantastic, interrelated universe of people with powers!") but never deliver ("Oh, don't expect consistency, or actually well thought out plots or character development, and we'll just ignore or rewrite anything that is inconvenient to the fan-fic I currently want to write.") etc. The whole point to playing Champs and creating our own world and developing our own characters was to do the things the comics never did, not just simulate what has already been done. (Mainly because what is done in comics is wholly inconsistent... want to simulate Batman? Well, which version, in which milieu... the pulp detective, the dark knight martial arts crime fighter... the god-like has-an-answer-to-everything-can-somehow-stand-next-to-Superman version?) The game system just reinforces this. As soon as you stat out exactly what a characters energy blast looks like, or exactly how heavily armored a tank actually is... you start to run up against these inconsistencies (wait... how much STR do I need to actually demolish a tank like the Hulk does with one punch? 200 or more? wait... what?). There are other systems that more accurately support "genre simulation" than Hero. Hero's deconstruction of everything down into codified mechanical effects forces a level of "realism" in how the super PC interacts with the world environment. Once this is established, it pretty much locks the "physics" of the game shared imaginary space, providing a solid basis for logical "cause and effect" to play out in a way that comics rarely do. (Hey, that street level martial artist really can't stand up to this demi-god of fire, so the idea they are equal parts of the same team doesn't make sense... etc.) So many genre conventions are immediately called into question by the mechanics of Hero... the rest start to fall, if you think even remotely critically about them. And yes... I can't stand D&D, and every time I've played, I'm sitting there going, "What is the point? Why is my character doing this? What is my motivation? Why should I, the player, care about what's in the next room?"

I guess I have to look at this the way I'd look at any other attack... how does it stack up against the accepted defenses and level of play the group has accepted? 24d6 Pre Attack is crazy powerful if you know that 1) even at 700 pts, the players have never bought PRE defense to match their other defenses, and never were lead to expect to need it... and 2) with their actual PRE stats being 40 or less... that is like having 40 or less stun. So, not only are PRE attacks END free, can happen in 0 phase, and have no RAW way to recover from them except time... oh, and also Area Effect for free as well... and automatically hits... the attack was against people with no defense and very little "stun". Would you have hit the team with a 0 phase, automatically hits, 0 END, are of effect 24d6 Energy blast against a team that had practically 0 defenses and 40 or less stun... and call that fair? Oh... with the added effect of a near permanent side effect of mind controlling one of them. hmmmm... I mean... I get it... everyone games differently... but I'd feel it totally justified if my players punched me in the face real hard and quit the game if I did that to them.

I said "most players I know"

L. Marcus remembers when he was found, washed up on the rocks, clutching only an old, leather bound book, which was remarkably undamaged by the sea and salt.

I guess... but as soon as you try to force justify something in a superhero universe with "money" or pseudo-science or whatever, it is a slippery slope. The simple fact is that Legion and many of even current cosmic super-stories are based on a "Don't think about it too closely, or at all, becausethe entire concept unravels pretty quickly." type of premise. Problem is, most players I know don't just blindly follow genre-conventions, but question them intensely. With your explanation, that Superboy and Monel are still godlike, even vs. magically advanced technology of the future... well then I really want to know why a) anything at all is a challenge for them? Why do they need a Legion when they are so unstoppable? or b ) why haven't those powerful characters become galactic rulers, since nothing can stop them... benevolent gods? or c) why isn't society not vastly more weird and warped if such powerful beings existed...as people worship them, institutions and societies grow up around them... or d) how is the Legion allowed to exist I the first place, what keeps them in check, and if they have the power to keep them in check, why do you need a Legion? It all spirals into "This just doesn't make sense." Social order would collapse and change into something unrecognizable in very short order if metahumans were real, especially if Superman or that level of power in a single individual actually existed. I've said this before... so many of comic book genre conventions and the kinds of stories they tell (superhero comics) are, at best, highly inconsistent... and at worse, completely absurd. One of the challenges of RPGs, when you start to put stats and rules and simulations to a genre... is that it exposes these ridiculous tropes, and most gamers don't support them any longer. As our average person becomes at least a bit more scientifically literate (and gamers tend to be higher on that scale) so many ideas written in comics just don't hold up to much scrutiny at all. When you start placing a supers campaign in a sci-fi milieu... it only exacerbates that trend. Everyone wants to know exactly how the technology works and why it works that way, and what are the ramifications of such technology, and the fact of supers and how they are defined, and what makes them super in comparison to sci-fi tech just spirals into collapse of the entire game... unless you've really thought through this kind of thing ahead of time, and have some very tight, consistent, and in-depth set of answers. If you have those answers, I'd love to play in your world.

I'm a fan of the world/universe setting of Fading Suns. The idea of playing superpowers in this kind of "dying society' would be totally my kind of game. A society based more on superstition and religion than reason and science, holding on to old "near magical" technology, etc. Taking some classic, global superhero types and inserting them into this bleak future... now that would be a game I'd love to run or play in. https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14343.phtml

When I have played around with "Galactic" type games, I tend to see them come out in two different modes... 1) sci-fi super heroes, or... 2) new gods For example: Legion is pretty much straight superheroes (low level and high level, depending on the era) with basically just sci-fi trappings. (High technology, space travel, other planets, aliens, etc.) But something like Kirby's New Gods... or, more obscurely, The First from CrossGen (back in the '90s) has more of a real "cosmic" feel... and you get "otherworldly"... "science at the level of magic"... "characters that shape reality itself" etc. I guess it is possible to mix the two, but... I'd suggest being really clear about what level you are playing at (not just point levels, but expected ability to shape the universe). I know I've struggled with the first category, as supers tend to feel outclassed, and "less super" when there is technology all around them that puts their abilities to shame. I'd be really interested in how your game works out in terms of keeping the PCs feeling important and powerful and doing super things that somehow stand out in a "galactic milieu"

Good point. Any we did start to play around with this (have a slightly newer player in the group now) but it was nearly impossible for me to remember the new way... the standard "roll low to hit" is so ingrained, it was WAY more work to try and change it... and wasn't all that less confusing for the new person. I'm probably just too old to stop looking at "to hit" rolls and wanting low numbers at this point. Edit: And your point goes to show that any attempts to get away from "roll low" don't really "simplify" the mechanics at all, since now you have all the subtle changes and exceptions you need to make.

I wonder if they specifically did NOT do that, because most movie goers would react like, "Oh... is that Hela? Why does she have big horns, too?" kind of thing. Unlike comic book readers who tend to differentiate on details... "No, Proxima is blue, and her windvane antlers are gold, not black, and..." that kind of nuance is lost on movie goers. In fact, the more I think about it, I'm thinking it is highly likely they had the, "No, she'll look too much like Hela... but we can't have her look like Nebula either" conversation quite a bit in costume production.

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Order_(Earth-616)

Aren't they members of his team of super-henchmen... the Black Order? Corvus Glaive, Ebony Maw... etc.?

I do dislike most martial arts films that are badly choreographed and clearly the moves only work if everything is positioned just right... but there is a big difference between two hand to hand fighters who HAVE to get in HtH range to deal damage... vs. using guns which are designed to mean you don't HAVE to be in HtH range to use them, and in fact, that's the whole point, to NOT be in HtH range. Stepping back in HtH is actually very useful, if you aren't actually trying to defeat your opponent, but just stop/delay/get away. Note that boxing has rules about one fighter just constantly dancing around out of range. They have to make the fighters fight. With guns, getting out of HtH range is how you are most effective in actually taking down your opponent, not just being defensive. You back up to give yourself the advantage of having a "ranged attack" so that you don't HAVE to move into HtH. John Wick, for all its unrealism, at least acknowledges what guns are for. Wick doesn't engage in HtH unless he has too... a guy gets on him before he can shoot, or he is out of ammo and has to close to get the other guy's gun, or he needs to get in close to one guy to use him as a shield vs. another gun guy who is firing from advantage, etc. They take it to absurd levels (especially in JW2) with the constant flow of fodder walking into his bullets and such, but the basis of his combat style is formed in reality. The whole idea of Equilibrium wasn't so much bullet dodging as gun hand-to-hand which lacks all verisimilitude. For me at least.

Equilibrium is one of those movies I just hated. YMMV, obviously, but I could not handle an action flick where the entire premise of the "cool discipline" would be undermined if anyone simply took a half step back while firing.

I really tried to like this, but I'm not allowed. Apparently there is not enough like in the world to go around. Here's me just trying to eke out a little more.

Yes please! Holy crap that looks good. The first season is my favorite of all the Marvel shows (just edging out Daredevil Season 1) and this looks just as strong. Here's hoping.

And it is the fact that this idea, perhaps summed up in the concept of Afrofuturism... that this idea is so RADICAL as even just a premise for a fantasy movie... so disturbing to the built in assumptions of the dominant white culture... that makes it powerful... and important.

Just using Massey's Just using this as an example, I guess I wouldn't call this "heavy" skills, and what I'd call a typical super-hero list of skills. You get into the hyper-detailed kind of skills, you are buying Language skills for every computer language you know, Computer Programming broken down by OS, science skills reflecting medical training and specialties, etc. Systems Op broken down by what types of systems... Weapon Familiarities defining multiple types, etc. Maybe half a dozen or more KS: from 8- to 14- or more that are important to the past experiences of the character, etc. It is just a whole 'nother level of granularity when you "really" get into skills. If what is listed above is considered "typical" I'd agree, but it isn't heavy by my standards. Also... I consider Breakfall and Stealth as default super-powers, the way they work, and how important they are to the action/adventure type game on any level. Spending points on Stealth is probably the best investment of CPs for any Hero game I've ever been in. I put them with Martial Arts and Combat Skill Levels as a category of "Skills that are really powers"... especially in supers.

If I may, I'd like to add to this with my own personal anecdote... I've been a comic book fan for nearly fifty years. I've been collecting reading, trying to write them, and certainly playing out superhero fantasies for close to 40 of those. This current wave of superhero pop-culture dominance is something I couldn't have imagined even ten years ago, especially having been a kid who had his comics torn up by a "friend" who thought they were silly, and was punched in the mouth for liking Star Wars in 1977. To have us comic nerds having "won the culture war" in this way still baffles me... but I can say that when I sat through Winter Soldier for the first time, I felt an inkling of what others might say about representation. I finally saw on the screen everything I'd seen and felt in comics since I was a kid. Here was a couple of serious movie makers, taking classic characters, and doing them right on nearly every level, while telling a serious spy-movie, with serious actors taking everything I'd ever enjoyed... seriously. I certainly didn't need to see more white guys on film to feel represented, but I did feel a touch of "Yes... they get it. They understand why this can be so damn cool" type of validation. It felt good. My wife, her own type of nerd, enjoyed it, but didn't really get why I was so enthused. Then she saw Wonder Woman. Both of us went in a little leery... me because DC movies suck (usually)... and her because she understood the stakes of WW being good or not. At the end, I was happily, very pleasantly surprised at how enjoyable WW was. Beside me, my wife was weeping openly. So were many women in the theater. She looked at me and said, "We have to see that again. Right away." The movie was a religious experience for her. I'd bought her GNs of the classic Perez' run (she hates reading floppies) and she'd begun enjoying them... now she devoured them. We've seen the movie several times, and she and her friends have watched it. We don't buy movies, but I bought her WW for Christmas. She devoured the Perez' issues, read the current YA Wonder Woman novel (loved it) and is in the middle of Rucka's first run on WW, and can't get enough. She has read and shared every article about the movie. It moved her. It inspired her. It meant something to her sense of self, far beyond being an enjoyable superhero flick. Obviously it did the same for many others, and that is why Wonder Woman is important. It has been fascinating to be so close, and get to experience (second hand at least) what "representation" means and looks like, and how it really affects someone. To Lord Liaden's point... it doesn't have to effect me the same way to be a great movie... and certainly the impact on me is not the judge of its importance. I can at least understand now, on a more visceral level, not just intellectually... how Black Panther "means" something way beyond what I can personally experience, and that my opinion of the "meaning" of that movie is correctly and deservedly "less" than other people's. I have a feeling I will love Black Panther in my own way... Coogler's "Fruitville Station" and "Creed" are both tremendous films, and I've been reading Black Panther since Jungle Action and the Avengers in the '70s. (Sadly, do not have a FF #52 in my collection.) I also understand that this movie means WAY less for me than for a lot of other people, and that's ok... good in fact. Important things have meaning on many different levels. My wife and I bought tickets within twenty minutes of pre-sale, and we'll see it on the 15th, and hopefully enjoy it. We'll discuss it, pick it apart, and debate it, like we always do. Then we'll go home and watch Wonder Woman again... most likely.

I'm sorry. Please tell me you didn't actually pay money for it, like I did in the theater. (Soooooo disappointing.) But yes, I liked the idea of the Gunslinger's almost magical way with bullets way more than the ludicrous attempt at trying to explain it as a scientific martial art in Equilibrium. Just thought they could have done even more... but that could have been said for the whole movie, not just the gunfights. And looking at other movie references here, I think Old Man and I share a very common movie watching background.

I actually thought the first "Underworld" had some great gun-fu craziness in it. The original La Femme Nikita and Leon: The Professional did a good job of finding a middle ground between realistic gun violence and ridiculous over-the-top stuff. The 1994 "Clear & Present Danger" had a decent sniper training scene. Is Dirty Harry really the ultimate, minimalist, gun-fu master? For more trained and highly choreographed "realistic" gun fights... nothing beats 1995's "Heat" and 2004's "Collateral" by Michael Mann. Even his Miami Vice remake had a couple great shoot outs, but Mann tends toward the dramatic realism side of things, not the gun-fu craziness. Frankenheimer's "Ronin" is second only to "Heat" as best modern action film, IMO... but again... tending toward more "realism" than crazy stuff. "I just ambushed you with a cup of coffee!"

I should say, my take on skill lists depends on whether you are talking about being a player of a single character, vs. GM of a several dozen or more. In the first case, I would be more inclined to take the time to flesh out the skills, because I only have to think of one character. But as a GM... most NPCs get five bullet points on a card, and that's it. I rarely stat out any NPC/villain, let alone exhaustive skill lists, unless they stick around and become a campaign fixture. I find character building very tedious, to be honest... and prefer, even when playing, to have a general outline of a character, and fill it in as we play... as moments and events shape the kind of characters and her KSA (knowledge skills abilities).

I agree with your implied assumption that Supers vs. Heroic campaigns have a different level of skill use. It has tended to play out that Supers would have less skills, more general skills and be fine with that, and Heroic level characters have more skill, and more detailed levels of skills. I think that comes down to differentiation of PCs. In Supers, the defining characteristics that set you apart are powers, or high level combat skills like martial arts, stealth, etc. In Heroic games, where everyone might be a version of ex-military private ops guy... then skill specialization is what makes one character different from another. That being said, I basically follow the rule, "If it is important and you want it to factor into the game, then pay points for it, and it is my job as GM to make it relevant. If it is merely background, don't worry about it." It is really about what kind of story you want to tell. If you are playing Daredevil-esque character, the fact that Murdock is a lawyer and has multiple skills and knowledge areas reflecting that could be really important, if the game tends to end up in law offices and court rooms the way the comics often do. If the lawyer bit is more, "Explains why I'm around the cop station and have contacts with bail bondsmen, cops, etc." then that is different. I agree with Doc's comments on skill fetishizing... if push came to shove, I would gladly go back to a single, generic "Science" skill, rather than detailing out 27 flavors of Physicist specialization, the way it tends towards today.

Just a question about implementation of this and making it "more elegant" in some ways. Is there any reason (I can't see one) where with this system, you just automatically make every DCV score just 10+ whatever you paid for? Just have DCV flat out 10 points higher than normal... so when you say, "Ok, I'll hit a DCV 18..." everyone has a DCV like that already written on their sheets. Normal Man doesn't have a 3 DCV... he has a 13 DCV. Bouncey Spider doesn't have a 10 DCV... he has a 20 DCV. Basically take that calculation out of the combat roll, and put it during character construction. You could even program Hero Designer to list DCV that way, right? Anyway, just wondering if I'm missing anything on that.