drunkonduty

In my Greyhawk game the PCs are now based in the Free City of Greyhawk. My take on the city is the council there is an elected body, with open elections every 5 years. There's a property requirement to qualify as a voter. The councilors don't change a lot with each election, as the voter's are pretty conservative, but there's some churn. But that's the City itself. Outside the immediate city surrounds the Free City is in the process of turning a confederation of allied cities into a realm ruled from Greyhawk by the Lord Mayor. Most decidedly not democratic. The PCs found themselves hiring a lawyer in their first adventure in the city. They were accused of a crime they didn't commit. This was actually a ruse by the Lord Mayor who needed some outsiders to carry out an investigation for him. In the end they didn't need to be represented in court but they have since used that lawyer to help them purchase property & set up businesses. Later they used their local fame (and a good amount of their own cash) to campaign for the enfranchisement of a new borough of the city: Orctown! It lies outside the city walls and is home to people who had fled to Greyhawk City to avoid the Greyhawk Wars* some 20 years earlier. Once the PCs convinced the Council to enfranchise the borough they then campaigned hard for their preferred candidate. Much later than that they engineered the overthrow of the King of Redhand (see the DnD3.5 adventure path Age of Worms for Redhand and Alhaster) and replaced him with an elected council. So they're sort of agents for the spread of democracy. In a game my wife runs for me the PCs live in the Republic of Jataka. The game is inspired by the Jataka Tales, a collection of Buddhist tales with animal characters. The races in the game are all animal folk (monkey-, cat-, lizard- folk etc.) The PCs mistrust the state (I'm taking my Chaotic alignment seriously!) and most especially the president, Louis the Prez (who is basically King Louis from the Jungle Book.) One of our first adventures was investigating the mysterious death of a candidate in the upcoming elections. Much to our disappointment Louis was not involved. Hmm, I realise now I spoke about political systems much more than day to day law. *Greyhawk City was not involved in the Greyhawk Wars. They're named that because the final peace treaties were signed in neutral Greyhawk City. It's all part of the official World of Greyhawk canon.

So simulating a specific work. Check. I don't do that much. I have done the Middle Earth thing as a Fantasy HERO game. In this case I didn't do a lot of world building. Famously Tolkien had done most of that. I did write up a few monsters but most of the basic bad guys were already covered by the HERO bestiary. It worked pretty well. We set the game in the First Age and the heroes had a fair bit of leeway regards changing canon. In fact I wouldn't have complained if they'd gotten their hands on a silmaril, saved Fingon in the Dagor Bragollach, or some other canon-breaking thing.

Oh. I didn't know this existed. I'll have to track it down. (Sure, I could simply create my own version of such a thing, but I'm lazy.)

Sorry I've taken so long to get around to responding to this. I'll start by saying I'm not sure I get what you mean by simulist. But I'll take a punt that you mean simulating a given genre or story/movie/book. For me I'd say I tailor a game to world to enable certain types of story telling. Those certain types of story are, more often than not, an attempt to emulate a given genre/movie/book. So I'd build a specific world for sword and sorcery game. A different one for a gritty low fantasy, or for an epic high fantasy. Is this what you were asking about?

Yeah it's weird. IIRC, some IP is specifically excluded from third party use by the OGL. Most was not. (Incidentally, interesting to hear about Githyanki being a homage from someone else's IP. Wonder if anyone would ever bother bringing that test case.) Lovecraft's stuff is another total mess of IP rights. I looked into this a few years ago, so apologies for the vagueness of what follows. Firstly Lovecraft's estate was a total mess; who owned what was very difficult to establish, and in fact I don't believe it has ever been finally settled. Lovecraft's works straddle the cut off date for works entering the public domain, so some critters are public domain, some are not. Also, sometimes (about once a decade I believe) that cut off date for the public domain wiggles around a bit, or is in danger of wiggling about a bit, before settling back at more or less the same point. The long and short of it is that you can probably use any Lovecraft IP you want. The chances of anyone being in a position to sue you are low. This would seem to be Paizo's position. But of course, as in all things legal, they who have the most cash will win that debate. Also, nothing I say constitutes legal advice.

My main exposure to Forgotten Realms was the grey box set (for 2nd ed. IIRC). That and some of the novels. It's my perception as informed by these that my above rant is based on. I also prefer a "mosaic" style world building. Certainly it is much less work to detail what I need in the moment and not have to worry about vast swathes of map that will never be used. Then, because I actually enjoy world building as a hobby distinct in itself, I get carried away and detail those unnecessary areas anyway. I am a silly person. As for what Paizo was intending when they designed Golarion; I believe that it was with the intention of allowing as many different campaigns as possible in one world. I would hazard a guess that they wished to enable an organised play meta-game (the Pathfinder Society stuff) that allowed for characters to be used across any adventures with a minimum of in story fuss required to to justify it. And that's cool with me. I get it. It's perfectly good reason to do what they did. But I feel that the end product, when taken as a thing in itself, suffers for it. I prefer a tighter, more focused world. It's an aesthetic preference. I see a game setting as a macro-story. When I read the setting I want its story to be cohesive and to make sense. I believe that this will in turn lead to more focused stories in game. But I also prefer more tightly focused worlds as things in themselves.

Certainly, Aboleth are DnD originals. But somehow (and I've never looked into the details of how and why) they are acceptable for third party use under the d20 OGL; whereas some creatures, e.g. Mindflayers and Githyanki, are not. So to my layman's eye Aboleth seem to be open source rather than IP. But I bow to your better knowledge of the area, both of what constitutes IP and what WotC actively claim as their own.

What Chris Goodwin said. @Cassandra, thanks.

What little I've heard of the early days of TSR do make it sound like a real cowboy operation. IP infringement left and right. Terrible HR management (even for the 70's) and just plain crazy business decisions. It's not surprising Gygax got forced out.

Are you sure he's not some sort of mendicant?

In my (as yet untried) fantasy game I want a low magic campaign. To this end spells are relatively difficult to cast and it takes a great deal of focus (read: experience points) to become a truly awe inspiring sorcerer. In game, magical effects are caused by manipulating the underlying Laws of Magic (Laws of Sympathy, Antipathy, Contagion, etc.) Different magical traditions apply their understanding of these laws in different ways which in turn gives rise to different types of magical effects. The difference in traditions is just one of individual interest and focus of study, there's nothing stopping a character from learning different traditions. All magic has the same source, there is no difference between divine and non-divine magic. Game mechanically all spells come with Skill Roll (a separate skill per tradition), Gestures, Invocations, and Focus limitations. Active Point penalties apply to skill rolls and players are encouraged to make use of extra time to offset this for more powerful spells.

Battlestar Galactica (new series) It jumped hard and far when Starbuck came back. Although it started lagging from... Whenever it was the Cylons showed up on and took over the new colony. Start of season 3?

I prefer my gods transcendent rather than immanent. This makes all evidence for their existence very much subjective and open to interpretation. It's part of my preference for low fantasy. So I'm all for a mountain that some people claim had it's top cut off by the swipe of Clanggeddin's axe in his battle with Gruumsh for ownership of the mountain range in which the dwarves and orcs dwell. But there will be no hard evidence for it. Not to mention competing stories.

(The following is specifically about Forgotten Realms.) Yeah, FR is very much of a throw it all in sorta setting. It's the epitome of what I'm getting at when I whinge about kitchen sink settings. This is not to say that they (the many writers, editors, and creative directors who have contributed to it over the decades) haven't made attempts to give the various elements compelling backstories. They have. But when you put all these backstories together you get a real mess. The different elements can undermine one another because of stylistic differences, or excessive similarity. For instance - githyanki and duergar and both former slaves races of the Illithid that gained psi powers and rebelled. That's interesting for a narrative once. But the second time it happens I call lazy writing. The elements might even undermine one another within the diegesis. I can't think of anything off the top of my head but I'm sure someone with exhaustive knowledge of FR can find many inconsistencies within the diegesis. Not directly related to kitchen sinking (oh look! I made it a verb. I'm bad people. sorry.) are the many bad re-writes and retcons. Ninja-Bear, you mentioned spell plague. That's one of several. There's been one for each edition change from 3rd ed. (maybe 2nd?) onward. The Time of Troubles was the first one I think. I just don't get why anyone needs to retcon a game world to reflect an extra-diegetic change to game mechanics. Not needed. (Hmm, not needed unless you're deliberately making a kitchen sink setting to show case all the IP your company owns therefore you need to update the setting to make it easier to shove in the new stuff... Yeah, even I think I'm drawing a long bow with that one.) Another, oft overlooked, aspect of the Forgotten Realms, at least in its early days, was the amount of Ed Greenwood self-insertion slash fic. Seriously. The number of beautiful goddess sisters who were all clamouring to get with Elminster is... unlikely. Look at a picture of Elminster. Or worse, Ed Greenwood. Not gonna happen. One infamous passage has one of these goddess types introduced into the scene while she is chopping wood. Topless. WTF? Also, never forget FR brought us Drizzt Dourden. Never forget! (Whoo. That felt good. Cleansing, ya know?)

Yeah, Forgotten Realm was Ed Greenwood's home brew.

I haven't read much of the Darksun world but even the little I know is very different and interesting. I do like Oerth. Some of that might be nostalgia. But the fact that it has a distinct geopolitical style to its description is a big appeal. In my home game my wife's characters have had some of their best adventures when engaging with the geopolitical part of the setting. And the Forgotten Realms can eat my shorts.

Yeah. They really are. Whatever crap is wanted for this week's episode is shoe horned in.

It's funny (not laugh funny, odd funny) that both Tolkien and DnD are considered generic fantasy. Because there's no way you can make the average DnD game anything like Middle Earth. Even low level DnD wizards and clerics are doing stuff you'd never see in Middle Earth. @Cassandra 1895, War of the Worlds (HG Wells), 1938 War of the Worlds (Orson Welles), 1947???? I wanna say Roswell... And if so, where/what is this well that connects them all?

Gonna try to reply to everyone. Christopher: For me, I don't mind genre mash up. Sometimes. What I really hate is just walking along, minding my own business, looking for a dragon hoard to steal, and then suddenly I'm in a new genre. Maybe literally whisked off in to outer space when the dungeon takes flight. No warning. No choice. No thanks. LL: I think you make a good point: a more tailored campaign world will run its course more quickly than a kitchen sink one. Generally I'm happy with that. I want a campaign to be finite. But I get that this would not suit every game. Hell, it wouldn't suit the game I'm playing with my wife, which is a long, rambling, peripatetic sort of thing that would have long run its course in a more tightly woven game world. Chris: I'm with you. I want a game setting to be unusual and well thought out and thereby provoke some thoughts from me. I don't mind a mix of elements. Just not EVERY element. Cassandra: that's a nice, dare I say single origin, supers universe. I swear if I ever get to run Champions again I want to do it in a single origin universe. Well, single-ish. If I was running a mutant origin game I'd allow a certain amount of hi-tech gadgetry. On the other hand if I was running a power armour origin game I would rule out mutants. Duke: Well, mixing sci-fi into fantasy is one of those things that is a marker of moving toward kitchen sink type settings. It's not definitive. But it's a marker. BTW: I also want only one type of FTL (in those games where FTL comes up.) Ninja-Bear: Hmm. I guess Tolkienesque is considered generic due to its ubiquity? Or am I just throwing out tautologies?

There are setting books and bestiaries you can buy from the store. They will take out a lot of work. It's easy enough to re-skin the HERO stat blocks with Pathfinder art...

LL: you raise good points. I guess I just like a specific tone and focus. But hey, I'm not suggesting one is superior to the other. Perhaps I should edit my first post and add a YMMV. I'd certainly be happy to hear from someone who prefers more kitchen sink.

I agree on the tight limits acting as stimuli to creativity. It forces me, as a GM, to think about interesting characters & interesting plots, rather than just throwing some new monster at the heroes.

Ninja-Bear, I think you've brought up a very good point. The monsters included/excluded are a very important piece of the world building puzzle. One I had not thought of. Thank you. Let's look at Golarion again. The world has a range of weird and I would argue, incompatible, creatures baked into its history. Atlantis (called Azlant in the setting) was sunk by Aboleth (a sort of ersatz Lovecraftian elder race. Like mind flayers, but not WOTC IP.) They still live underground along side drow, duergar and other classic critters from the old DnD Underdark. Aboleth are presented as the all powerful masterminds behind every plot. Except in all those many cases when they're not. For instance up at the World Wound, which is a dimensional breech to the Abyss, its demons. And then there's horrifically powerful dragons. Where were the dragons when Atlantis was being sunk? I mean, they're in the setting. They just sat back and did nothing about the whole, earth shattering kaboom? And what about the Fey? There's tonnes of Fey about, living all parallel dimension-y and popping over to main stream Golarion to say hi and make a nuisance of themselves. Then there's androids. Yep, about 500 years ago a space ship crashed on Golarion. Now there's androids. Not enough? Let's throw in some kaiju. There are some monsters actually called Kaiju in some of the official Pathfinder bestiaries but there's also things called Behemoths which are the same damn thing. Oh yeah and Baba Yaga's daughters are the witch queens of a horrible Russian fairy tale country. <sigh> Any one of those is great. But together... It's all a bit too much for me. Re.: Shadowrun. I like the setting. Yeah, it's a bit gonzo. But it started gonzo and didn't go too far from there. Over time it did expand it's suite of monsters a bit. But not too much, and not so far from what was established in the basics of the setting. For example Bug Spirits got added in one of the adventures. That's not so bad. Animal spirits were already a thing. The Bug Spirits were different more in attitude and long term goals than in any fundamental way from spirits as the setting already presented them. I think the Shadowrun world has the right amount of weirdness to be interesting. Caveat: I only know 1st ed. Shadowrun. I have no idea what may have happened after that. As for super hero games - yeah. They are very kitchen sink. But they don't have to be. I mean, as originally envisaged the Xmen universe was meant to be its own thing and not cross over with other Marvel titles. But I guess the $$$ potential of cross overs was too good to pass up. And now we all have to try to justify a world in which the Xmen are reviled for being weirdos with powers and the Avengers are lauded for the exact same thing. Xmen would be better served being in its own world . In all fairness it is usually written as if it is. As are many of the comics. But then a stupid cross over event happens... <sigh>

That's a great way of putting it! I completely agree, the game world is another character. And as such it's gotta have character. I agree about the Turakian Age setting. It is just kinda bland. I like the Valdorian setting (particularly the magic system.) I haven't read the Tuala Morn setting but I keep hearing good things here. (Frankly I'd buy it and see for myself but the HERO site hasn't been willing to accept my credit card for a couple of years now. But I digress.) For a world to have character it has to be definite about what it is and what it isn't.

First up, I'm just sharing some thoughts, looking to start a conversation. Feel free to disagree with me. Feel free to give vent to your own frustrations. In responding to a post in another thread I got to thinking about world designing, specifically kitchen sink worlds vs. worlds more closely tailored to a given style. Pathfinder's Golarion is a kitchen sink world. It is a conscious attempt to mix every style of fantasy in the one game world, thereby giving it broader sales appeal. Valdorian Age and Tuala Morna are good examples of more tailored settings. Me, I dislike kitchen sink worlds. The clashing of genres bugs me. I find it very hard to come up with justifications that satisfy my need for consistent narrative. A classic example of genre mixing that bugs me is mixing sci-fi and fantasy. Now look, I love me some Thundar the Barbarian. I do. Thundar works fine as a setting. But how does one mix Thundar with Lord of the Rings? Or Tad Williams' Shadowmarch? Or Celtic mythology? Or Dracula? Worse, how would one put all of these in the same world and hope for some sort of consistent approach to that world? (Golarion, I'm looking at you.) I don't think one can. Such a world fails at being consistent about it's own story. For me, this is a problem. As well as struggling to find a single story for the world, it can be awkward to find consistent stories for the characters that inhabit that world. I don't like the idea of juxtaposing a gothic horror tale next door to a super high fantasy tale in which the PCs are able to wade through literal armies of enemies, to jump between worlds at the click of a finger, level cities with a word, force the Lords of Hell to do their bidding, etc. (You know, the usual high level DnD sorta stuff.) It's also about creating a set of underlying assumptions at the start of the game and then sticking to them. If I agree to a given style of game, I want to play that style of game. I don't want to be playing a gritty, low fantasy one moment only to be whisked off to the flying castle on the back of flying rainbow unicorns where I'm told I'm the one hope against the Dark Lord. Changing gears that hard gives me whiplash and as a player I would hate it. (I hate it as a viewer too. Too many shows have gone on too long and eventually ignored their World Bible.) So anyway, that's a short version of my gripes against kitchen sink worlds. How about you? Love it? Hate it? Don't know why there's any fuss at all?