arcady

Re: Lots of questions from a lost gamer... I've got a review of Star Hero open in another window that should be posted soon. It's in work. The book is amazing in content, though I have to say I'm not so fond of the art. GURPS does the Traveller genre of science fiction well, but other genres poorly. I feel that way due to the nature of weapons and armor in GURPS. When you have what amounts to ten hit points, and you use a gun that does 15d6 damage, and armor that stops 40 or 50 points... A single die of difference in armor or gun power makes victory nearly automatic for one side or another - or both sides cannot harm each other at all. Traveller however has a distinctive flavor to it's setting and particular equipment for which this instant kill nature is fitting, and the general mechanics of GURPS fit the setting better than its own original mechanics did. If you're willing to make your own setting, I recommend Star Hero. If you want a premade science fiction setting, I recommend GURPS and the GURPS Traveller books. You can skip GURPS Space and the many Ultra Tech books. The Traveller setting however, feels more like classic science fiction - something Asimov would come up with - than what modern science fiction tends to deliver.

Re: Begginner Question Since a revised core book is on the way, I would avoid buying it now even if your store has copies... At a minimum to play you will need Sidekick. Ideally you'd want a core book, and Fantasy Hero. From there it becomes a matter of taste.

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

Re: If magic cost full price... I'm squarely in the camp of 'full costs for spells is too much'. The 1/3 costing of Turakian Age is a viable option, but the skill requirements there might still leave a mage weak. If we compare the sample characters in the back of the Fantasy Hero book - remove 20 points from the mage in there (because he was built on 170 while the others were all built on 150), and he's clearly the weak link. Of course just how weak is a matter of what you remove - you could cut raw power and make it obvious to make a point, or you could cut the flavor to make a counter point, but you'd probably come up short and end up making a third point: mages have to sacrifice flavor just to be on or close to on par with the others. For Fahla, my mages will be working with VPPs and skill rolls. There are four VPPs, one for each element, but an unlimited number of skills - which each skill reflecting a style of magic one might know: tantric, battle, ritual, blood-magic, and so on... I'll probably do the VPPs in a manner similar to 'The Gift' from FH. So it's a divide by 5 system. In addition, I'll let it be pushed and combined with other mages. But the cost of entry is high - in Fahla if you don't manifest magic by puberty you never will, and the practice is dangerous, all spells will have side effects and a high END cost. The end result will need to be a system that easily kills mages with low skill rolls, but allows the high skill rolled mages to thrive. The 'university' at Coinic (one of the largest cities in the world) estimates nine out of ten mages die in their teens to their own magic - as a result, they restrict their teachings to slaves officially owned by the royal family. The mages can get powerful, but have a lot of complications on that power. I've still got to figure that out, but I think it will work. In my setting you won't have the warriors who walk around with one or two spells to boost them up - being a mage is a life long dedication. You need to consider balance, but I think genre is even more important. With fantasy you're simulating a genre. Think of why you're not playing DnD. A lot of people leave DnD because it's just too game and not enough story or simulation. DnD simulates DnD, not fantasy - it has a logic that falls apart even if play balance is roughly preserved, and a lot of the limits put in to ensure this are the factors that drive so many of us away. Now that you've landed on Fantasy Hero, the last thing you should do is recreate the issues that led you away from DnD. Make sure your magic system makes sense from a genre perspective. Play balance is important, but don't sacrifice genre to it.

Re: Fifth ed revised name? FREDy eFRED. iFRED -Hey, at least that stands for something 'improved FRED'.

Re: If magic cost full price... In DnD 3.x, the mages are only more powerful if the fighters don't know how to build effective feat chains. I once played an archer fighter who at level 11 was dishing out a reliable 40+ points of damage every round, with a decent AC, high hit points, and a +23 to hit bonus. That number bring my 'average' roll and not my max, and not subject to a save or magic resistance, I outclassed every mage thrown at me, and every mage the other players tried to build. Generally, in most DnD games I've played, the fighters and rogues stay more powerful throughout the levels - but the mages gain the ability to do area attacks and wierd effects. Built by people who know how to 'game' the system, rogues will always outclass fighters who will always outclass mages. Clerics I'm a little less sure on... Built by average players clerics will outclass, but I'm not convinced the real number-bunnies won't still find my scale holds for them.

Re: If magic cost full price... I ran a game of Fantasy Hero in the first edition. It was full price then, and there tended to be spells that had a limitation value of 6, 7, 8 or more... often burden down by all manner of extreme and impractical limitations.

Re: Hero Needs Reviewers!!

Re: Hero Needs Reviewers!! Hmmm... I might need to cash in on this. But I have to warn you: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/search-review.phtml?reviewerName=arcady

Re: Interaction Skills Yeah it is hard to sway people off of their psych lims. Think about trying to convince someone with a real phobia to take activity that would trigger it - a phobia that causes panic attacks for example. Or an addict, try to persuade them to quit, even if they want to you and they are fighting an uphill battle. On the other hand, put their addiction before them and they will have to fight to resist. On the strength of the interaction skills, I guess I don't see the issue. They're skills, run them like skills. After coming off of DnD, Hero skills seem a little strange to me - because you know your chances of success going in - barring whatever modifiers the GM assigns. In DnD, a skill like Diplomacy (Seduction in Hero), has set DCs to do set things. For each step you move a person - hostile, unfriendly, neutral, friendly, helpful - the DC changes by 5. Likewise Bluff (Persuasion in Hero) is oppossed by their Sense Motive skill, and outlines how you can convince a person. They're skills, and the actions taken are still taken by the victim within the victim's paradigms.

Re: Modern Hero? Cyber/Transhuman Hero? should they publish these? The problem with the GURPS version is that it is a setting book, not a genre book. The Transhuman genre really is the modern science fiction genre - although that name is not the name used for it outside of gaming. On the idea that Dark Champions is not a super's book... If I wanted to run 'Lupin III', would it be the book for me? If I wanted to run 'The Sopranos', or 'The Fugative', or 'CSI:Hero', or 'James Bond', or 'Indiana Jones'. Maybe I'm stuck in names... but I remember Dark Champions under 4E - it was inspired by all the comic books I couldn't stand; Nick Fury, Punisher, Cable, and so on... It was a -very- different genre than Espionage, Danger International, and Justice Inc.

Re: Interaction Skills If an NPC does something that logically would be a skill check, and in making that check wins out over a PC - after which the player of that PC choose to ignore the game results I will ask why. I will then take that under consideration the next time the tables are reversed and the PC is trying to influence an NPC in some manner... I expect players to 'play through' according to character and situation even when they know it will harm the character - even when it will lose them the character. Fortunately it's been a while since I've had a player for whom I suspected this might be an issue. I play in a game run by one of my players, and my PC is someone who is notably lacking in common sense... I myself am of the opinion that I'm rather perceptive - so I make a habit of intentionally having my character 'do the wrong thing' quite often. She puts herself in harms way, she misjudges and insists she's right, she misses that she's being stalked (by one of the other PCs - OOC we actually plan our character's downfalls together), and she will skip clues and take the wrong route quite often. I've had a number of moments were I'm in one of those 'Well, Sisi didn't see it, so I just walk on by and wait to get thwacked' modes. Tying that back to interaction skills - good roleplay, or at least 'good game' as I call it, is knowing when the course of the story is going in a given direction and 'playing through' because you desire a good game, a good story, over 'winning'. If the results of the game say your PC has been duped, and you yourself know the real score - it's your duty as a player with 'good game' to block player knowledge from character knowledge and respect the results of the game. I couldn't care less about the success of my characters. I care about how interesting they are.

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill I'm only defining Persuasion by what it says on page 46. ..."convince, persuade, or influence individuals, or tell lies. ... a successful Persuasion roll should make a PC much more inclined to believe the speaker or do as he requests." (page 46 Hero rulebook) As well as Seduction by only what it says on page 48: "...gain other's trust (and perhaps even friendship) by offering companionship or favors. A successful Seduction roll usually makes it easier to learn information or gain favors..." (page 48 Hero rulebook) What I am not doing, is defining them by what they are called and how that is defined outside of Hero - that is in conflict with how they are defined inside of Hero. If you define them by what they are called outside of Hero, they overlap. If you define them by how they are defined within Hero (which is a logically consistant approach), they no longer overlap. If that is so hard to do, simply scratch out the names of the skills in your book, and change them to 'PRE-based skill 1' and 'PRE based skill 2'. With such neutral names you can look at them and see they are both full skills that are mutually exclusive. Don't get hung up on their names, follow their within Hero definitions.

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill If you want someone to have sex with you you have to persuade them. You use Persuasion. If you want them to love you you use Seduction - you befriend them. You really need to stop focusing on the name of the skill, and start looking at how they are described in the book. The Seduction skill never covers the act of seducing - unless you believe seducing is making friends. Looking at this definition: seduce 1. To lead away from duty, accepted principles, or proper conduct. See Synonyms at lure. 2. To induce to engage in sex. 3. a. To entice or beguile into a desired state or position. b. To win over; attract. The skill 'Seduction' only fits for 3-b. The rest are Persuasion.

Re: Why play Fantasy Hero over other fantasy games? Well, as another thread over in the Hero System boards says, I'm going through this situation myself right now. I'm setting up a playtest to make the transition,and we'll see how it goes. Upon discovering this thread when it popped back up, I sent a link to my players. I suspect we'll be doing a session to make characters and a session for a short adventure. But the characters probably won't work for the regular game I plan (the setting to which is still inwork), so I'll have to do a character session again at a later point. Right now, I need to figure out just how much I want to show them in the playtest. How to show them enough to show them the advantages... and do it in only one session of about five hours. The last poster has hit on something about play styles. DnD is set up to encourage a certain style, and you can get very burned out by struggling against this model. Try running or playing in an almost purely social game in DnD. That's what I play in right now, and while it's a good game sometimes it seems so futile. The system doesn't support the game norms we evolved into playing.

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill Actually I think the mistake is that, as I read you, you're still equating the Seduction skill to seduction. Seduction has nothing to do with seduction... It has no connection to sexuality, no connection to conning people, vamping them, or otherwise getting them to do something. At least as it is described in the book, it is in no way about seduction... It's about 'befriending'. Building buddies, building allies. Seduction lets you gain trust. This makes it easier to get information and favors. Which implies it as complimentary to persuasion. It also points out that if you get them as far as friendship they will take their own actions to your benifit. But you've never persuaded them, never seduced them as far as 'vamping' is concerned - you've just put them on your side. The stripper example you give - she's going to get you to like her, but from there most of the work she does is to persuade you to do things for her, with Persuasion. I'm not sure I agree most people are poor at resisting being made to trust or befriend someone. I do think most of us are poor at avoiding being conned. Going to the used car salesman you mentioned - these people are actually masters at getting people to do what they desire. They are masters of persuasion. But they might not ever manage to get you to like them in the process.

Re: Design Question By the way if you're trying to come up with ideas for what the wrappings are, in the occult silk blocks magical energy. You could require him to wear something made of hand spun silk from a certain part of the world, maybe even with oddball conditions in the spinning - like from blind widows or something.

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill Think of the two skills not as 'Seduction' and 'Persuasion' but as 'Skill number one' and 'Skill number two'. We know what skill number one does, and we know what skill number two does. I think one of them has a poorly chosen name for what it does... I also think both of them should if not be everyman skills, at least be possible on a 6- or 5- for everyone. The problem is that in Hero, there is no step between 8- and 0-, so we end up bickering over which end of a line the size of Texas everything should fall. That said, nothing in Skill number one allows you to persuade someone. For that you need skill number two. Skill number one only forges relationships - it makes people more disposed to take their own initiative in action towards you. Skill number two lets you suggest a course of action for them to take.

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill Your Politics and Diplomacy skills can probably be done through situational mixes of Oratory, Bureaucratics, and Persuasion.

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill The problem is that I think the names of the two skills are off. The scene you described is persuasion if he's trying to convince a person of something. Seduction should be named something that evokes building relationships, alliances, and contacts. Diplomacy, what it gets called in DnD, almost works - though I've seen plenty of d20 GMs try to use it for negotiation rather than using bluff because in d20's case, bluff is the missnamed skill (it does more than dishonest interaction). Hero's Seduction, by it's description, should be called Diplomacy, and DnD's bluff, by it's description, should be called Persuasion. Yes the scene you describe might seem like 'seducing a person into something that appeals to them' - but it isn't Seduction because Seduction is not seduction. Now it may be in that scene that they first gain his trust, and then use that to strengthen their ability to persuade... Complimentary skill rolls - with Seduction aiding Persuasion.

Re: Got my 'damaged' books today... Steve's comments make me thing Hero is not using the same distributor the d20 companies I've bought from use. My damaged Hero books are on average, in better shape than my 'mint and shrink wrapped when I bought them' d20 books... Somebody in the chain of getting a book from printer through Hero and distributor and on to the store has very high standards. On the other hand... some of the Hero books I've bought in the store were in worse shape than the damaged books I bought from Hero, leading me to suspect my local shop is not caring for its merchandise as it should (and it's only 10 blocks from Hero's offices - 1 mile up the hill, you'd think if any store in the world would have a concern for this, it would be that one ). So I'm definately pleased with my catch from this sale.

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill Now I didn't read that at all. I read Seduction as gathering trust by proving your worth trusting. It's like the DnD Diplomacy skill. "...gain other's trust (and perhaps even friendship) by offering companionship or favors. A successful Seduction roll usually makes it easier to learn information of gain favors..." (page 48 Hero rulebook) --- That's how all human beings build friendships. Persuasion on the other hand, is not about buidling relationships, it's about convincing people of something. It is like the DnD Bluff skill. ..."convince, persuade, or influence individuals, or tell lies. ... a successful Persuasion roll should make a PC much more inclined to believe the speaker or do as he requests." (page 46 Hero rulebook) Funny thing is, reading that... If wanted to get someone in bed I would use persuasion. I wanted to make them into a romantic relationship, I would use seduction.

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...? ... So... moving on... I've got my plan of attack for trying to get them over to Hero. I personally think the player who's worried about his DnD collection will prefer Hero once he knows it - I just have to get him to get that far without antagonizing him first. It looks like, when I read the parts of the thread before the ... well, it looks like others have tried to switch their groups and some have succeeded while others have failed. Perhaps we could put our heads together and see what has helped those who succeeded do so, and what caused those who failed to end up in that situation. Perhaps they way the idea is presented to the group? Or perhaps the choices in the initial characters, initial story, or even the way those characters were made? Or whatever else? I can't be the only person wanting to run a Hero game with a group of players who are hesitant.

Re: Should all skills be everyman to some degree? Your system never addressed what to do with skills that are not everyman skills. Figure that out, and you have something.