Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I think the 'just fun' excuse gets used far too often and quite sloppily to shut down any intellegent debate. I would much prefer to see the RPG community take responsibility for the extent in which we participate in the creation of social values.

 

 

Only empirical evidence has a small chance of ever changing a person's mind and even then, most likely not; therefore, intelligent debates are pointless. The Internet is littered with subjective thought. It is one great trash heap of reason. There is little value in adding to the pile. I love and hate it all with the same breath.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Fantasy in the Tolkien-inspired sense is about black and white' date=' good and evil. The morally ambiguous or socially complex doesn't have a place there. You're either a good guy or a bad guy, so why not have an entire race of bad guys?[/quote']

 

 

Tolkien was a Christian and he may have been biblically inspired. The whole Good and Evil philosophy is more of a Judo-Christian concept. In the Old Testament, evil is likened to a disease and cannot be cured, only destroyed. During biblical times, some cultures consorted with demons ("ruined by the dark powers") producing half-human/demon offspring called the Nephilim. The whole idea of inherently evil races (such as orcs) in fantasy could be inspired by these biblical stories.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Thanks for clearing that one up. I guess a few philosophers and theologians are going to have to look for new jobs tomorrow.

 

 

Now if I _knew_ you were going to read what I wrote I might have cleared up a few more of those 'tricky' problems...

[badger3k]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Tolkien was a Christian and he may have been biblically inspired. The whole Good and Evil philosophy is more of a Judo-Christian concept. In the Old Testament' date=' evil is likened to a disease and cannot be cured, only destroyed. During biblical times, some cultures consorted with demons ("ruined by the dark powers") producing half-human/demon offspring called the Nephilim. The whole idea of inherently evil races (such as orcs) in fantasy could be inspired by these biblical stories.[/quote']

 

While Tolkien was a Christian, there was only one letter written that supposedly said the LOTR was Christian writing (or something like that - I forgot the wording, and never have seen the letter). Most of what I heard of his statements denied any religious meanings - which doesn't deny a possible basis in the thoughts that gave birth to the story. Given that a lot of his material was heavily influenced by Norse (and other) mythology, the concept of opposites at war wasn't unique to the bible stories. I really wasn't aware of the Nephilim (have to add to research!), but I do recall the Elohim (IIRC?) that had many kids with the people of the earth back in Genesis. I'm not sure on that as a possible origin of evil races.

 

Given Tolkiens stance on industrialization, and the fact that the nature-loving elves were turned into the evil orcs through the bad guys mojo, that may have been seen as a corruption of people by technology (at least in the case of the Uruk-hai). Just a guess, I never really looked too deeply into the origins of the story, or Tolkien's views.

 

Of course, the end result is that we have some races that are categorized as Evil in some games. I doubt highly that this has any real effect on normal people (there is always a fringe that should stay away from anything that may stretch their fragile grip on reality). As I said before, the greatest heroes have the vilest villains - they need to opposites to really stand out in the genre. I think that some games reflect visions such as these, while others reflect more modern views on the world.

 

I think that the hobby reflects, rather than teaches, the morals/values/thoughts of the people involved. Given that the hobby is in a market economy, the radical fringe groups that do publish (and I've heard of many in the d20 arena) soon get drowned out or forgotten, except by those who have the same beliefs (ie - the larger audience as a whole tends to ignore them).

 

Nobody I know has ever changed an opinion or picked up a belief from what was in a game. Maybe from the social aspects of the game - meeting new people and new ideas from the players, but not from what was written in the books. Look at the fuss over the Book of Vile Darkness that came out a while back - all the bad things in the book. Naughty book. Heard lots of fuss back then, and now? Have there been people practicing human sacrifice, or torturing people (because of this book, that is)? Despite what Chick and Co want us to believe, it doesn't happen (again, except for those individuals who have problems and should only role-play under a therapists care).

 

Besides, who wants to worry about whether the orc, troll, human, or whatnot has been good to his family when he's coming at you with an axe? While morality can be explored if the group likes that, sometimes you just gotta hack!

[Vanguard00]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Tolkien was a Christian and he may have been biblically inspired. The whole Good and Evil philosophy is more of a Judo-Christian concept. In the Old Testament' date=' evil is likened to a disease and cannot be cured, only destroyed. During biblical times, some cultures consorted with demons ("ruined by the dark powers") producing half-human/demon offspring called the Nephilim. The whole idea of inherently evil races (such as orcs) in fantasy could be inspired by these biblical stories.[/quote']

 

 

No argument there, CB, but I was trying to show that the fantasy genre as it's generally known (orcs = bad, elves = good, etc) generally avoids the moral "gray area". Though there is some really good stuff out there demonstrating it, the idea of a "morally ambiguous" protagonist is still not as popular as the "white hat/black hat" versions. In a fantasy world I tend to add a touch more gray, but I still have definite black and white races/organizations/whatever. It usually provides a better backdrop for the stories I wanna tell.

[Outsider]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

In a fantasy world I tend to add a touch more gray' date=' but I still have definite black and white races/organizations/whatever. [/quote']

 

 

I also had a "Red Cloak" mercenary organization. Nice guys, but not much personality. Mainly used when the storyline demanded that some 'good guys' get the axe, but not that a PC or one of their named henchmen die.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

The more I think about it the more I realize that the PCs in my campaigns are usually the "gray areas" in my story. They are the elements I can't really control. I provide a compare and contrast element (the "good guys" and the "bad guys") and let them find their way in between. Of course, I lean towards epic and high fantasy where this is easier, but even in "low fantasy" games I've generally had an "evil empire" of some sort. If I want a complication I simply make the main antagonist a likeable fellow, or lure one of the PCs into a personal relationship with a "bad guy".

 

And thus ends my attempt to answer the question honestly while ignoring the trollish undertones...

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

While Tolkien was a Christian' date=' there was only one letter written that supposedly said the LOTR was Christian writing (or something like that - I forgot the wording, and never have seen the letter). Most of what I heard of his statements denied any religious meanings - which doesn't deny a possible basis in the thoughts that gave birth to the story. Given that a lot of his material was heavily influenced by Norse (and other) mythology, the concept of opposites at war wasn't unique to the bible stories. I really wasn't aware of the Nephilim (have to add to research!), but I do recall the Elohim (IIRC?) that had many kids with the people of the earth back in Genesis. I'm not sure on that as a possible origin of evil races. [/quote']

 

 

Do not get me wrong. I am not saying that the LOTR was Christian writhing but given Tolkien's background, some of the concepts of good and evil may have a biblical origin. The Nephilim are from Genesis 6:4 (NIV) and their demon heritage it contested by many theologians. I am just saying that the ideas are there. The concept of intrinsic good and evil may have come from the bible. Tolkien did draw heavily from Norse mythology as well.

 

 

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[Chiba Bob]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

If I want a complication I simply make the main antagonist a likeable fellow' date=' or lure one of the PCs into a personal relationship with a "bad guy".[/quote']

 

 

My personal definition of good and evil is simple. Those who flip me the bird are evil and those who feed me charred meat and cold beer are good. I have no moral ambiguity in my philosophy.

 

 

 

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[badger3k]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Do not get me wrong. I am not saying that the LOTR was Christian writhing but given Tolkien's background, some of the concepts of good and evil may have a biblical origin. The Nephilim are from Genesis 6:4 (NIV) and their demon heritage it contested by many theologians. I am just saying that the ideas are there. The concept of intrinsic good and evil may have come from the bible. Tolkien did draw heavily from Norse mythology as well.

 

 

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Sorry - I didn't mean to give that impression. I used your idea to springboard mine. I do agree that his upbringing and beliefs in the war of good and evil inherent in Christianity may have been a big influence on the basis of the story, but I think the details came from elsewhere (the other myths, his ideas on society, etc).

 

Thanks for the info on the Nephilim too.

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Or is this merely entertainment which does not affect our real life thinking?

 

Is there any such thing?

 

The human appetite for stories (accounts of connected events with some sort of point to them) is so universal and powerful that we never bother to reflect on what a strange thing it is. Humans love stories so much that the US spends more making fiction than on health care. Bizarre!

 

I have my own theory about why we love stories so much, but being without evidentiary support it is not worth setting out here in international publication. But it doesn't really matter why we have this voracious appetite: either evolution or God or one of thethousands of other gods gave it to us for a reason, and it doesn't matter (for the purposes of this discussion) which or what the reason was. The human craving to explore chains of consequence through stories it too powerful to fool around with in safety.

 

It is with minds as with computers: [racist] garbage in [racist] garbage out. Spend a few hours every Saturday night rehearsing making judgements on racist grounds and the one thing you can be sure it won't do is make you less likely to use that dubious skill. "Men learn to be lyrists by playing the lyre", and Christ wasn't being stup[id when he went on with all that stuff about sinning in one's mind.

 

Let's keep our heroes heroic and out villains vile, okay? Wallowing in a mire in which the vile is heroic and the heroic vile won't be good for us.

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Well' date=' one difference is that orcs are fantasy creatures, while Jews are not.[/quote']

 

Indeed. But the habit of judging people's deserts on the grounds of their race rather than their deeds is the same in life and fiction. It is not, in my opinion, something that it is wise to rehearse, especially with the positive reinforcement of fun.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Indeed. But the habit of judging people's deserts on the grounds of their race rather than their deeds is the same in life and fiction. It is not' date=' in my opinion, something that it is wise to rehearse, [i']especially[/i] with the positive reinforcement of fun.

 

 

Explain to me how you play in any RPG without a stereotype of any sort? Play short, dumpy, flat-chested women, do ya? Aging black men missing teeth? Not a single cop/donut joke to be found? All lawyers are morally upstanding and let their conscience dictate their actions? Never had a Jewish doctor? Never had a black gang-banger? How about a Middle Eastern convenience shop owner?

 

Racism is a fact of life. It can be positive or negative, depending on how you take it and how you dish it out. Personally, I'm not racist. I generally assume everyone's an a$$hole until proven otherwise regardless of race, creed, religion. Sex is another matter, but only if they're hot (and female, and not sheep).

 

I have no idea what the point of the original post was, but y'all are taking this way too seriously. You'll suck the fun out of gaming.

 

Geez, I'm takin' my Irish/English/American Indian butt and goin' for a pint and crumpets, and I'm takin' my horse to do it. So there.

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Only empirical evidence has a small chance of ever changing a person's mind

 

Can you cite any evidence for that? I believe that, as a counter-example, cognitive-behavioural therapy can change a person's mind. (And that, be it noted, consists mostly of willing changing the thoughts that one rehearses. It is after witnessing the power of CBT that I have become so concerned about the thoughts that we rehearse in RPGs.)

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Inherently I believe that this comes down to whether you can distinguish reality from Fiction…

 

I am not sure that this is quite decisive. People can certainly distinguish between drills and exercises on one hand and real operation and emergencies on the other. Nevertheless the things they rehearse in the drills and exercises alters what they do in the operations and emergencies.

 

I'm not saying that playing a few villains is going to instantly corrupt every player, or that all GMs ought to be put on FBI watch lists at once. Nevertheless it is hard to prevent what we do or think a lot from becoming a habit, physical or mental. And I have lately been amazed to witness the power of changing people's mental habits (in treatment of depression with cognitive-behavioural therapy).

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Explain to me how you play in any RPG without a stereotype of any sort?

 

I don't. I just make the stereotypes as inaccurate and misleading in games as they are in reality. Which turns out to make the games more interesting and entertaining, in my not-so-limited experience.

[Rage]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Do not get me wrong. I am not saying that the LOTR was Christian writhing but given Tolkien's background, some of the concepts of good and evil may have a biblical origin. The Nephilim are from Genesis 6:4 (NIV) and their demon heritage it contested by many theologians. I am just saying that the ideas are there. The concept of intrinsic good and evil may have come from the bible. Tolkien did draw heavily from Norse mythology as well.

 

 

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Completley offtopic but:

Neiphlem were according to christian texts the sons of angels, which is why they called themselves the son's of God. And there is no hard biblical evidence that Angels are demons contrary to what popular theology says.

I have also seen theories that it was refering to Cains Children, I'll see if I can find the document.

[Rage]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I totally agree with you.

"What do you mean these Goblins have flame throwers? The're far to stupid to ever ahve figure... ooh"

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I don't. I just make the stereotypes as inaccurate and misleading in games as they are in reality.

 

Oh, you mean how you can always find large numbers of people who fit the stereotype of their groups exactly, and how the exceptions are usually not the majority?

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Oh' date=' you mean how you can always find large numbers of people who fit the stereotype of their groups exactly, and how the exceptions are usually not the majority?[/quote']

 

Not quite always, but very often. For example, the negative stereotype of Imperial servants in my SF setting is misperceived in some details.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

There are few races in my gameworld that can be pointed to and be called "evil" per se... but there are many who can be pointed to and be called "ruthless and cruel".

 

The Ngunglip icewalkers (the Taranchean version of eskimos), for example, think nothing of leaving a newborn baby out on the ice if they cannot afford to feed it, and oh by the way gramma's cough isn't getting any better so maybe she needs to babysit the newbown for a while, while the tribe keeps tracking the caribou.

 

Or the Ha'an, a society ruled by an elite caste modeled after the samurai (not precisely cloned, though... just modeled), who have only one punishment for any crime, regardless of severity, and that punishment is death by crucifixion and who see the weak (read "weak" as "anyone who isn't a member of the Ha'an warrior caste") as dishonorable trash not worth the time it would take to hold them (the trash, that is) in contempt.

 

Are either of these societies evil? And if so, it is because I (the creator of the gameworld) am racist?

 

Of course, then there are the corrupt societies of the Black Islands, far to the south of the Emerald Forest's coast, that worship Things No Man Was Meant to Know and engage in horrific rites... but that's a special case.

[cyst13]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

To answer Proditor's question: I am not in the media nor am I an academic. I work part-time in a convenience store. I've been playing RPGs since I was twelve, which was over two decades ago. I don't have any axe to grind and I don't think RPGs cause people to worship Satan. I started this thread for the reasons I listed in my last post. Mainly I was curious and I wanted to start a good discussion. Seeing as that we are now on page 5 of this thread, I think I've been successful (pat, pat).

 

I was going to further argue my case, but Agammemos (hope I spelled that right) already said most of what I wanted to say. Just as a last word, though: I consider myself to be as non-rascist as I can possibly be. However, I also think that the impulse to form quick judgements about entire groups (race, gender, class, hippies, cops, etc.) is an intrinsically human quality, and not a very good one. I work nightshift at a convenience store in a downtown area and I get tossed a good deal of crap from both Black and White people on a regular basis. While I don't form snap judgements about White people (I'm White myself), I do tend to break them down into sub-groups and go from there. Something along the lines of "I hate those damn street kids!" As much as it galls me to admit it, I do the same along racial lines as well. When the adrenaline wears off and I cool down, I realize the irrationality of my judgement and try to forget it. The point is, though, that when I (and I assume I'm not alone) get into a stressful situation, my tendency to form aggressive emotions directed toward an entire group comes to the fore. It's something I have to consciously suppress in myself. And if I were spending every Saturday night pretending to slay evil races, it might not be so easy for me to suppress those real life tendencies. I can't prove this to be true, but if there is a chance that it is true, I don't think the pleasure of slaying orcs compensates for taking that chance.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

To respond to the people who think I'm trying to prove that gamers are Neo-nazi male supremacists, that's just downright silly. Rather, I'm trying to take the activity of RPGs seriously. I don't know what the number of gamers currently is, but D&D at its height was being played by millions of kids throughout the world. Any activity that is participated in by millions of people becomes part of the public sphere. When it is in the public sphere, it is open to public debate. Questions of race and sex have been addressed in public for over a century now. All of the genres of fiction & film that feed RPGs (i.e. sci-fi, fantasy, superheroes, etc.) have had to address these questions. And the creators of those genres have all had the same intitial reaction: "What's your problem, man?!"

 

As has been demonstrated not only on this thread but on previous threads addressing race and sex, there are gamers out there who have a problem with the way in which these topics have been addressed in games. If it's important to address issues of racism and sexism in television, movies, and books, then it is also important to do so in RPGs. Many of us got started in games when we were about 12 yrs. old. I think it's reasonable to ask how we are presenting RPGs to adolescent kids. Also, I would like RPGs to be something more than fun, entertainment, and diversion. I think the 'just fun' excuse gets used far too often and quite sloppily to shut down any intellegent debate. I would much prefer to see the RPG community take responsibility for the extent in which we participate in the creation of social values. I spend as least as much time and energy writing my games as many authors do writing fiction or screenplays. I think I have as least as much responsibility for the content of my imagination as do they.

 

First off cyst, you assume that we all believe that it is necessary to address issues of racism and sexism in television, movies, and books when some medium attracts nation-wide attention. A "moral responsibility" of the media if you will? Well you're wrong, because I don't believe it. And not only do I not believe it, but I think that such an assumption sows the seeds for TRUE evil and I'll explain why.

 

I believe that my country (the United States) was founded on fundamental concepts of freedom. One of these concepts involves the free exchange of ideas and yes, freedom of speech. I believe that any person has the right to express him/herself anyway he/she wants without fear that some whiney group of snot-nosed, politically-correct hippies will control what is said by that person because A) they feel that this person NEEDS to be controlled because they have too much influence over our population or they feel that person has some kind of "moral responsibility" to address the latest fad, politically-correct agenda approved by said nazis...errr, hippies. Now I believe that your intentions may be good cyst, but to force people or organizations to change the way they express themselves is setting a very dangerous precedent. And to an American, it's treason.

 

Speaking of Nazi's cyst, you may believe (and understandably I might add) that it was racial and anti-semetic propaganda that was one of the most important factors in the creation of the Nazi regime, but I tell you this: NO amount of racist propaganda was the cause of Hitler's rise to power.

 

It was fear - fear to oppose the wave of Nazi propaganda because other organizations and ordinary citizens were not protected by any free speech amendments that would allow them to speak out against Hitler and give them the confidence and support to oppose him. And what happened to those in Germany that did oppose him?...well I won't get into that, but it's no mystery that the First Amendment would have protected the rights of various organizations who opposed Hitler during that time, and would have kept Hitler's political party from becoming dangerously powerful.

 

A writer for the St. Petersburg Times whose name I don't remember said "Give the government the ability to control free speech is giving it carte blanche to censor anything and everything." Nazi-controlled Germany is a perfect example of what happens when you give government such power.

 

As a free thinking individual, I want every person and organization to have the right to speak and express their imagination without fear of social or government pressure. "Oh no! You shouldn't have campaigns with evil races!" Baloney. To censor, to control what is said and what is NOT said is to follow a path of ignorance; and moral relativism aside, if anything in this universe has a strong link to evil, it is ignorance.

 

There is no one in Heaven or Hell except the Almighty Himself that can tell me what I should or shouldn't say or how I should run a Hero campaign. So don't tread on me!

[Gunrunner]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I'm kind of tired, so I don't know if I went off topic too far or if I got my point across so I'll say it this way:

 

If you're worried about the concept of "evil races" in RPG's promoting racism, then implying that companies that publish RPG's should be held accountable for their influence on others is not the answer. Individuals should be held accountable for their own actions. To control what such companies should/shouldn't publish is akin to killing a monster with a bigger, meaner one. Sure, you got rid of the small monster but now you have a bigger, more dangerous one you have to deal with!

[trechriron]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

...if anything in this universe has a strong link to evil, it is ignorance.

 

There is no one in Heaven or Hell except the Almighty Himself that can tell me what I should or shouldn't say or how I should run a Hero campaign. So don't tread on me!

 

 

I sit in here in reverance and appreciation for those words. I thought for a moment there I was losing my mind.

 

Thank you, Mr. Gunrunner.