Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

First' date=' the idea that roleplaying encourages racism is on a par with the idea that roleplaying encourages devil-worship.[/quote']I think roleplaying probably does encourage devil-worship. If the game has references to it anyway. Traveller certainly doesn't. And what's wrong with devil-worship anyway?

 

The real fraudulent claim made against rpgs is that they encourage suicide. This has been statistically proven to be false. I can't see why they would, given that rpgs don't particularly make any reference to it.

 

However surely any subject matter has a small effect on the behaviour of the reader or player? I'd say playing sci-fi games encourages people to apply for jobs at NASA. By an incredibly slight and only statistically noticeable factor.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

However surely any subject matter has a small effect on the behaviour of the reader or player? I'd say playing sci-fi games encourages people to apply for jobs at NASA. By an incredibly slight and only statistically noticeable factor.

 

 

My point is this: why should we, the greater majority who amazingly enough don't have thought processes which follow the "orc = evil means minority = someone to be discriminated against) worry about it?

 

If an infinitessimal portion of the RPG community becomes influenced by orcs into hating people of another race, then as I have already pointed out they've got problems going *into* playing RPGs. The fault lies in the person, not the RPG, and thus the solution lies in changing the person, not the RPG.

[assault]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Here's how it works: we already have diffences of opinion. If you sit around a table with a bunch of people that already agree with you, your existing opinions are going to be reinforced.

 

Here is an example:

Misguided or not, our presence in the Middle East has always been intended to protect our economic health and hopefully to be a broker or mediator for peace.

...

I believe the Israelis want peace. I believe the leaders of the Palestenians do not.

 

I'm not interested in an argument about this.

 

This, however conventional, is an opinion. It is entirely possible for a reasonable human being to disagree with it.

 

So, if you want to indulge in shades of grey, then, yes, indeed, "Evil" and "Good" are relative.

 

Count me down for "Evil", buddy.

 

But, if you follow the fantasy conventions of supernatural/spiritual evil, this stuff doesn't work.

 

The real answer is: "don't be a tosser".

 

There is Good. There is Evil. These are the normal conventions of fantasy.

 

If you want to play historical fiction, feel free. Then you can indulge your prejudices until the cows come home.

 

Just don't tell me about it.

 

I might have to start quoting Tacitus.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Interesting point about Tolkein. I'm re-reading LotR beginning to end for the first time since high school. While I'm enjoying the story and the language, I do find myself wondering what the Gross National Product of Mordor is. How does Sauron feed his troops (does he trade with the Haradrim?)

 

Lawrence Watt-Evans has a list of "Rules for Fantasy Writers" one of which is that evil people don't believe themselves to be evil. Everybody thinks he's in the right (something he uses to good effect in his novel "Touched by the Gods")

 

Well, he did mention the big slave-farms to the south of Mordor proper at one point. And I rather imagine that Tolkien orcs can get along just fine by eating their own weak, wounded, whatever. They were more biological artifacts than an actual race, after all; at least, they were shown as such in the movies.

 

Which does get around a problem with Tolkien, that 'nothing was evil in the beginning; not even Sauron.' Tolkien did state in his letters that Sauron was 'as /close/ to absolute evil as any being could ever get'. So it seems he felt there were some good traits in even the worst people.

[dbsousa]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

So yes. A race can be prone to evil and evil actions. The culture can allow' date=' encourage, even foment evil actions. [/quote']

 

Am I right in understanding that you believe that a race or culture can be evil by nature?

 

I don't want to be accused of misunderstanding. Could you please clarify this statement?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I just want to offer a point that might help clarify a bit of the argument. Philosopher and Worldmaker and others have implied it, but not exactly spelled it out in these terms.

 

"Evil races" in RPGs do not represent an intrinsically racist concept, for one simple reason. "Race," in the sense RPGs traditionally use the term, is a misnomer, and does not mean "race" in the same sense as we use the term in the real world.

 

What RPGs call "race" is actually species.

 

I don't accept the notion of an "evil race" (i.e., an evil ethnic group) in reality, because I don't believe it's possible for humans to be inherently evil. In reality, the word "evil" essentially means "extremely abberant from normal behavior/beliefs/worldview/etc. in a negative direction (more destructive, more repressive, etc.)" Behavior, beliefs, and worldview are not inherent traits in humans... they are not like gender, ethnicity, eye color, etc. They are learned, taught, absorbed from the culture, and so on.

 

Based on that, I can accept the possibility of a culture of humans that is predominantly "evil"... i.e., a culture that encourages behavior or passes on beliefs and worldviews that are much, much more destructive, repressive, etc. than those of humanity in general. However, even such a culture would not universally produce evil people. Just as there are some individuals in benign cultures who hold negative views, there will always be some people in negative cultures who hold benign views.

 

It is also possible for me to imagine the existence of a species where the traits of behavior, belief, and worldview are inherent... especially if the species is fictional. I can imagine a species that is hard-wired to act in a manner that would be evil by human standards.

 

In general, I think the most interesting fantasy worlds blend all of these elements. Humans may have some "good" cultures with evil individuals, some evil cultures with good individuals, and some cultures generally close enough to the norm that they are neither evil nor good, but include good and evil individuals. Some non-Human species may have evil cultures, but some good individuals (and so on).

 

And some non-Human species might be so different from humans that they innately behave in a manner humans consider evil, and cannot simply choose to behave differently, any more than a fish could choose to breathe air. In Hero terms, the evil of these species would be a Physical Limitation... not a Psychological Limitation. (Assuming the game was centered around non-evil species, of course. Amongst only their own species, it wouldn't be a Disadvantage at all.)

[keithcurtis]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

People might want to re-read the posts from the last time this topic came up. It was a slightly different approach which asked more about the possibility of an evil race. It can be found here.

 

As for what Tolkein said on the matter of Orcs, evil and Christian thought, I'll repost what I did at that time:

 

From a letter to W. H. Auden 12 May 1965

[Auden had asked Tolkein if the notion of the Orcs, an entire race that was irredeemably wicked, was not hertical.]

 

WRT the LOTR, I cannot claim to be a sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of the orcs is heretical or not. I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief which is asserted somewhere, Book 5 page 190 [1], where Frodo asserts that the orcs are not evil in origin. We believe that, I suppose, of all human kinds and sorts and breeds, though some appear, both as individuals and groups to be, by us at any rate, unredeemable.....

 

[1] "The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the orcs: it only twisted and ruined them"

 

Keith "Muddling the topic, again!" Curtis

[keithcurtis]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Only empirical evidence has a small chance of ever changing a person's mind and even then' date=' most likely not; therefore, intelligent debates are pointless. The Internet is littered with subjective thought. It is one great trash heap of reason. There is little value in adding to the pile. I love and hate it all with the same breath.[/quote']

 

I love this! It should be a banner above the NGD boards.

 

Keith "rep comin' your way" Curtis

[keithcurtis]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

WRT the actual topic:

I personally don't believe that having a "wicked race" (species) in your campaign will lead to increased bigotry/prejudice in my real life. Nor do I think violent video games will cause me to be more inclined to shoot people, or that cartoons will lead me to potentially suicidal behavior (ie. jumping off cliffs.) I am perfectly capable of drawing a line between the two realities, the "real" reality (my experiences), and the "sub-reality" of a work of fiction.

 

In the same breath, I do believe that something like the X-Men can cause a person to contemplate the nature of prejudice in a positive manner. The latter is designed to do so. The X-Men often reads like a treatise against prejudice. It is what it is about. It is designed to make you think about prejudice and to form an opinion that it is bad/wrong.

This is not true of orcs. There is no portrayal of orcs in fiction (that I have found), which is designed to promote bigotry, where it is the point of the story. Orcs are a symbol of Evil To Be Overcome, not a symbol of Whom To Hate.

 

Keith "stop being pedantic and just exercise some common sense" Curtis

 

PS. Hi Derek, good to see you post!

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

In the same breath' date=' I do believe that something like the X-Men can cause a person to contemplate the nature of prejudice in a positive manner. The latter is designed to do so. The X-Men often reads like a treatise against prejudice. It is what it is [i']about[/i]. It is designed to make you think about prejudice and to form an opinion that it is bad/wrong.

{A little off topic}The only problem I have with the X-Men in this regard is that people take it a little too far. From reading fanfic done by people in this genre (particularly the movie fic) they don't imprint these problems of prejudice on people, they imprint it upon one country. I have not read a fandom that is more consistently cynical and antagonistic towards America anywhere else.

 

It is extremely troubling to me that people can so easily assume that this country would do such vile things (which I will freely admit it is capable of doing) but can not and does not contemplate that the rest of the world would just as easily, if not more easily, do the same things. Canada and Europe are automatically these bastions of free thinkers who are havens anti-prejudice thinking. That it's only the evil americans (because it isn't just the government, it's the people themselves) that are driving this bigotry.

 

I think the X-Men's storyline may only be an avenue for expressing their contempt for their country, but I may posit that they may get so in genre with regards to their writing that they don't consider the alternative, that america isn't all bad and europe isn't some utopian fantasy world of community togetherness.

 

Anyhoo, I've derailed enough, back to your regularly scheduled dialectic.

 

TB

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

My original question still stands (ok' date=' maybe not original one, but it's in there somewhere) - why should we hold the "racist" elements to a different standard than the violence, magic, gods, slavery, etc?[/quote']

 

I don't think we should. I'm not a Jew or Christian, so I'll leave you to fight your own fights vis à vis magic and gods. But I do think that there is a danger in rehearsing belligerent attitudes, and so I try to play characters who use violence only with justification, and try to find not-violent approaches where possible. Of course, this may have something to do with my finding purely tactical games rather dull.

 

"Be a hero": not just pretty words, but a creed to game by.

[badger3k]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I don't think we should. I'm not a Jew or Christian' date=' so I'll leave you to fight your own fights [i']vis à vis[/i] magic and gods. But I do think that there is a danger in rehearsing belligerent attitudes, and so I try to play characters who use violence only with justification, and try to find not-violent approaches where possible. Of course, this may have something to do with my finding purely tactical games rather dull.

 

"Be a hero": not just pretty words, but a creed to game by.

 

OK - that's one of the things I was curious of, whether you regard violence, et al, under the same aegis as the race issue.

[cyst13]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Teflon Billy,

 

This is an off-topic response to your last post. (Hey, we're on page 13; it's bound to go off-topic sooner or later) You're right. While Anglo-Americans have practiced our share of racism (vs. Natives, Africans, Chinese, Japanese, Mexicans, etc.), we've never gone to the absolute genocidal extremes of Nazi Germany, King Leopold of Belgium, the Hutus in Rwanda, the Turks vs. the Armenians, Stalin vs the Ukranians, the Khmer Rouge vs. Everyone, et. al. The difference between us and those other nations, though, is that we Americans theoretically have the power to affect what our government does. It is far more difficult for the average X-Men fan to have an affect on the Arab govt. in Sudan's efforts to eradicate the Dinka.

 

Some Americans who criticize America may indeed genuinely hate this country. However, speaking as an American who has been critical of this country's policies, when I offer my criticisms, it is in the hope of making our country better. I do not criticisize from a desire to tear it down. The U.S. has promoted a standard of democracy throughout the world that is better at promoting human values than any other form of government. I just want to see us live up to our own values.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Teflon Billy,

 

This is an off-topic response to your last post. (Hey, we're on page 13; it's bound to go off-topic sooner or later) You're right. While Anglo-Americans have practiced our share of racism (vs. Natives, Africans, Chinese, Japanese, Mexicans, etc.), we've never gone to the absolute genocidal extremes of Nazi Germany, King Leopold of Belgium, the Hutus in Rwanda, the Turks vs. the Armenians, Stalin vs the Ukranians, the Khmer Rouge vs. Everyone, et. al. The difference between us and those other nations, though, is that we Americans theoretically have the power to affect what our government does. It is far more difficult for the average X-Men fan to have an affect on the Arab govt. in Sudan's efforts to eradicate the Dinka.

 

Some Americans who criticize America may indeed genuinely hate this country. However, speaking as an American who has been critical of this country's policies, when I offer my criticisms, it is in the hope of making our country better. I do not criticisize from a desire to tear it down. The U.S. has promoted a standard of democracy throughout the world that is better at promoting human values than any other form of government. I just want to see us live up to our own values.

Oh, I have no problem with people being critical of this country, there is just a level of strident pitch to theauthors' vitriol that goes beyond wanting to effect government policies to just holding general contempt for this country.

 

I also have other issues with X-Men style bigotry. One being that bigotry it isn't logical (in so much that bigotry can be logical). Where is the hatred coming from? The common thread I find most bigotry is an Us vs. Them dynamic and some sort of perceived threat to a persons lifestyle. Whether it be a "dilusion of the race" do to interracial marriage or the loss of economic self determination in the "Jewish Banking Conspiracy" there is something else, beyond the mere differing factors of the people involved.

 

The most egregious example I find in this is the consistant rejection by the mutants family. The obvious analog is someone who comes out of the closet at puberty. But the level of ostracization does not gernally run to this level, this consistently. There are always aberations of course.

 

So I ask, where is the unseen force that is pushing this semi-racist hatred for mutants? In the comics you had Apocalypse pulling the strings and you had others. But I just don't buy into the motivations that Marvel has come up with. It doesn't hold up to a critical eye.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Quote by Cyst:

 

"Do you think creators of fantastic fiction can use imaginary groups of 'people' to foster real life tolerance towards others in their audience?

 

Specifically, I'm thinking of X-Men and Star Trek. Both these series have specifically intended to encourage their audiences to be more tolerant through the examples of their characters. Both Professor X and Jean-Luc Picard are the moral voice of those series, and they actively enourage us throughout the series to treat all others with tolerance. Is it possible for this to have any affect on how people who read/watch these series act and believe in real life? If you answer yes, then why doesn't the opposite hold true in treating orcs as homogemously evil?"

 

Good point, and yes I do believe that literature can be used to influence people in this manner and the opposite. I think that a fantasy story with "evil races" is a bad example because it's distance from our reality prevents us from relating with the principles of such a world. That does not mean, however, that a story which does relate closely to our reality cannot be used to influence people in a racist manner. I think if someone had bad experiences with a race of people their whole life and told others about it, it could very likely influence those listeners to think of people of that race in a more negative manner.

 

At the same time, what can be done? If you feel that people with destructive or idiotic ideas should be silenced, then who in this world do you trust enough to determine what is right and wrong, what should be said or not said? I don't even trust myself for that task and I'm my own greatest fan Giving someone or a group of people the power to control which ideas are promoted and which ones are banned is encouraging corruption on a huge scale. By it's very nature it creates inequality.

 

Cyst, you make an excellent point by asking this question and I'm glad to see that you aren't taking anything I say personally, it shows you to be a reasonable person.

 

To continue our eternal discourse however, the problems you present will never provide a perfect solution. You may as well try to find the solution for world peace or the eradication of crime. So long as humans live, there will always be war, there will always be crime, and there will always be disagreement. That is the nature of mankind, it is when we accept this reality do we become wiser and realize that we all fight the battles of wars that can never be won. That doesn't mean we stop fighting, but it will give you the peace of mind that you seem to need.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Oh, I have no problem with people being critical of this country, there is just a level of strident pitch to theauthors' vitriol that goes beyond wanting to effect government policies to just holding general contempt for this country.

 

I also have other issues with X-Men style bigotry. One being that bigotry it isn't logical (in so much that bigotry can be logical). Where is the hatred coming from? The common thread I find most bigotry is an Us vs. Them dynamic and some sort of perceived threat to a persons lifestyle. Whether it be a "dilusion of the race" do to interracial marriage or the loss of economic self determination in the "Jewish Banking Conspiracy" there is something else, beyond the mere differing factors of the people involved.

 

The most egregious example I find in this is the consistant rejection by the mutants family. The obvious analog is someone who comes out of the closet at puberty. But the level of ostracization does not gernally run to this level, this consistently. There are always aberations of course.

 

So I ask, where is the unseen force that is pushing this semi-racist hatred for mutants? In the comics you had Apocalypse pulling the strings and you had others. But I just don't buy into the motivations that Marvel has come up with. It doesn't hold up to a critical eye.

 

the simple social stigma of being "different" is all you need sometimes.

 

We are, despite claims to the contrary, a country of cliques from small to large. If you are different then you will be persecuted. This country has a massive history of witch-hunting..

 

The clearest line I could draw to point to a real life analogy of why Mutants in the Marvel Universe a persecuted en masse is McCarthyism, where we persecuted, en masse, people we thought to be Communist. Going to far as to black list a large number of people from several industries.

 

It's not a very good analogy to be honest, but it is clear that Americans have the ability to hate, persecute and attempt to control those they perceive as a threat to either themselves, their family or their "society/neighborhood"... and we believe what the TV tells us, we really do.

 

So what's the driving force in the bigotry faced by Mutants in the Marvel Comics? They aren't normals.

 

There are always expecetions to the rule, and the actual trigger will be different for various people from Jealousy to Fear to Misunderstanding to just plain old Xenophobia and Racism, to being told they are something they aren't.

[dbsousa]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Teflon Billy,

 

This is an off-topic response to your last post. (Hey, we're on page 13; it's bound to go off-topic sooner or later) You're right. While Anglo-Americans have practiced our share of racism (vs. Natives, Africans, Chinese, Japanese, Mexicans, etc.), we've never gone to the absolute genocidal extremes of Nazi Germany, King Leopold of Belgium, the Hutus in Rwanda, the Turks vs. the Armenians, Stalin vs the Ukranians, the Khmer Rouge vs. Everyone, et. al.

I would include our slaughter of the Native Americans and our slaughter and enslavement of Africans among the atrocities above.

[cyst13]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Gunrunner,

 

Glad to read we're on friendly terms. Don't worry; you didn't hurt my feelings. I expect people with strong feelings to express them strongly. Nothing wrong with that. With a slightly different emphasis, I agree with pretty much everything you wrote in your last post. And thanks for the concern about my peace of mind. I really am a peaceful guy, though (a practicing Buddhist). I've honestly enjoyed this thread. I love arguing the minority opinion!

 

Teflon Billy,

 

You're right. Marvel never does explain why the great mass of Americans who have accepted all humans as equals and generally rejected discrimination and prejudice are suddenly gripped with homicidal rage towards mutants. I don't think it would ever be as bad as they portray it. However, if you look at the rhetoric at some of the people freaking out about genetically modified crops and goldfish, it kinda makes you wonder how people would react to GM humans. The comics are primarily aimed towards kids, though, and they have to make the issues into broad caricatures for the kids to pick up on them.

 

The New X-Men strip written by Grant Morrison does a much better job with subtlety and the strip also goes international to show that prejudice is not an uniquely American quality. Might be worth checking out.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I would include our slaughter of the Native Americans and our slaughter and enslavement of Africans among the atrocities above.

 

 

Why is it that no one ever mentions the "Native Americans" slaughtering each other or the Africans enslaving each other when they start talking about atrocities?

[Outsider]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Why is it that no one ever mentions the "Native Americans" slaughtering each other or the Africans enslaving each other when they start talking about atrocities?

 

Because it would tarnish those people's 'victim mystique' and could even lend a hand to the "everybody is rotten, some are just more successful at it than others" theory.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I think a good case could be built for anti-mutant hysteria. Mutants are not just different, they are powerfully different. Some are individuals who can affect entire governments just by force of will. No society could long endure with such wild cards within it. You think security is tough at airports now, how would you defend against telepaths with an axe to grind?

Any sane governmental power structure that wants to preseve itself would do its utmost to eradicate or control such a group. It's the same reason we don't want private individuals to own thermonuclear weapons. There is no reasonable defense.

Fortunately, there is no real corrolary in the real world that I can think of.

 

Keith "tough solutions to a totally fictional problem" Curtis

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Teflon Billy,

 

You're right. Marvel never does explain why the great mass of Americans who have accepted all humans as equals and generally rejected discrimination and prejudice are suddenly gripped with homicidal rage towards mutants. I don't think it would ever be as bad as they portray it. However, if you look at the rhetoric at some of the people freaking out about genetically modified crops and goldfish, it kinda makes you wonder how people would react to GM humans. The comics are primarily aimed towards kids, though, and they have to make the issues into broad caricatures for the kids to pick up on them.

 

The New X-Men strip written by Grant Morrison does a much better job with subtlety and the strip also goes international to show that prejudice is not an uniquely American quality. Might be worth checking out.

Thanks for the heads up on the comic. I might have to add to my current subscriptions (currently at 5:D)

 

Which X-Title is it specifically?

 

TB

[cyst13]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

It's just called "New X-Men" and it seriously rocks! There are two large hardcover collections out for it already. I recommend them both. There are like a thousand different X-Men series, so make sure it's the one written by Grant Morrison.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I think it is fairly well defined in the Marvel Universe.

 

The MU media protrays mutants are shown doing incredibly violent acts without any explaination on why these mutants are fighting those mutants. And they usually split afterwards, so there isn't anyone saying, "Sorry about this, we had to neutralize Sabertooth. We'll come back tomorrow and use our incredible powers to repair the roads, the broken sewerline, and collateral damage."

 

It is easy to villainize a group of people that are constantly protrayed as exceptionally violent monsters that destroy everything.

 

Whenever the X-man does use its power to save people. And gets good press. Then, for a little while, they do seem to get a little slack from the public. Until the next big battle and then its back to "those violent mutants! There ought to be a law!"

 

There's also the fact that the X-men, despite their actual age, are symbolic teenagers. Nobody understands them, they don't know how to fully control their bodies and have strange and powerful emotions, and they feel like freaks outside of their clique.

[cyst13]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Good points. Though I still wonder why non-mutant superheroes don't get the same flack as the mutants. The Avengers and the Fantastic Four do as much damage as the X-Men, yet nobody calls for their heads on a platter.