Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Oh' date=' this is good. You're rebuking me for not taking your hypothesis on faith.[/quote']You shouldn't take it on faith. You should take it for what it is, an interesting idea for which there is some evidence but no proof. Providing counter evidence, as has been done, is perfectly appropriate. Demanding proof isn't.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

You shouldn't take it on faith. You should take it for what it is, an interesting idea for which there is some evidence but no proof. Providing counter evidence, as has been done, is perfectly appropriate. Demanding proof isn't.

 

Congratulations on the working cerebellum, by the way.

 

 

Here's the thing... I don't think there is any evidence supporting the hypothesis, have said so, and have provided counter-argument. You're the one trying to convince me otherwise, so the burden of proof is on you.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I don't see it that way. If we are trying to convince you that evil races promote racism are you not equally trying to convince us that they don't? I don't see the burden of proof falling on anyone.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I don't see it that way. If we are trying to convince you that evil races promote racism are you not equally trying to convince us that they don't? I don't see the burden of proof falling on anyone.

 

That's not how intelligent discussion works. You put forward a hypothesis, you have to support your statement.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

It has been supported, just not proven.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

It has been supported' date=' just not proven.[/quote']

 

 

Right, and I find the support that has so far been offered unconvincing.

[dbsousa]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

[wading into a conversation that I know I should avoid]

Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote, "If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being, and who is willing to destroy his own heart?"

 

The problem with races that are "evil because they are evil" is not that they promote racism in otherwise pure minds. People are tribalist by nature, and assign evil traits to those outside the tribe with abandon. The problem with evil races in fiction is that it accepts this tribalism, and feeds it back to us without processing it. "Evil races" are 2-dimensional by design, and are a poor excuse for actual characters. In gaming, they are lazy storytelling, and a shortcut I try to avoid.

 

Had Tolkein written the Lord of The Rings about Aragorn, a noble human who rallied his troops against an unfeeling horde of inhuman beasts, led by a personification of Evil, few would remember him, except as a hack. Instead, he wrote about a little man who had to struggle with his own demons, knowing that in the end, his failure almost destroyed the world, except that his merciful decisions earlier saved him.

 

Evil Orcs don't make people racist. But anyone who gives any thought to the true nature of evil in the world will be bored, bored, bored, by them.

[/wading into a conversation that I know I should avoid]

[proditor]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Sidenote from before on Martial Arts. The question was..."Why? Do you rehearse angry thoughts and unprovoked lashing out in your martial arts classes? Or do you rehearse calm self-control and defensive use of force?"

 

Well, neither really. Most of the arts I've taken are "Hard" or "Hard/Soft" styles like TKD, Goju-Ryu, Kenjitsu and some basic self-defense. In those, There wasn't a lot of introspection, more of a do it 10000 times until the move becomes muscle memory. However, all 4 also had the emphasis on what a good "Kiai" could do in terms of force and the application of it. Self-control, yes. Calm? Not to my perception. Defensive use of force? Hardly ever. One of the patterns for Goju-Ryu had no less than 12 groin strikes and 6 throat strikes and it was very very clearly a take an opponent out so completely that they will never ever get up again type of thing.

 

I won't say that each of these styles didn't have some introspection and inner reflection (With the exception of the self-defense course) but once the "bell" sounded, you put on your war face, harnessed that adrenalin and tried as hard as possible to put the other guy down.

 

I think that there is a perception about martial arts that is just not universally applicable and that is about spiritual enlightenment. It is there for many of the styles out there, I found some great inner peace with Kenjitsu, but it is also absent in many of the more modern and lethal styles like Krav Maga.

 

All of that said, I'm still much calmer and more willing to think/talk my way out of a confrontation when I'm taking classes. YMMV though.

[cyst13]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Speaking as some one on the 'Yes' side of this debate, I have to say that Worldmaker has been correct in his recent posts. Those of us who agree that 'evil races' in games is not only a racist concept but possibly promotes real life stereotyping in some gamers have the burden of proof on our shoulders. We are the ones positing a hypothesis which contradicts what most gamers already assume to be true. Worldmaker, Gunrunner and the others who are on the 'No' side of the debate are supporting the status quo. They do not have to prove their argument. They only have to critique our argument, should they wish to do so. If the 'Yes' argument is ever accepted to be true by the majority of the world's gamers, it will then be incumbent upon those remaining in the 'No' camp to support their position. Until that time, those of us in the 'Yes' camp have to provide the best evidence and arguments possible.

 

Worldmaker also makes another good point. As eloquent and articulate as Agamegos has been, he has not offered evidence in a refutable manner. Specifically, if this debate were to be conducted at a professional level, it would be incumbent upon anyone offering evidence from behavioral psychology to footnote exact studies to support one's claims. That would allow those in the other camp to refute those studies on their merits. As it is, those reading Agemegos' posts have to rely on his authority and assume that he is interpreting the evidence to which he refers correctly. Since none of us actually knows anything about Agamegos, there's no reason to believe he's infallible.

 

In his defense, this is not a professional forum. None of us are being financially compensated for our time spent on these boards. And to expect Agemegos to sacrifice significantly more of his personal time to scrupulously researching and footnoting his arguments is more than can be reasonably expected of a person who is not being paid.

 

I don't think the 'Yes' camp will be able to prove or even strongly back up our argument with evidence in the course of this thread. Herogames.com is really not the appropriate forum for scientific progress. Hopefully, though, these arguments have helped to clarify the thoughts of all the participants, whatever their final opinions might be.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Herogames.com is really not the appropriate forum for scientific progress.

 

Not that this has stopped you from posting thread after thread of potentially-inflammatory questions under the pretense of "in relation to gaming".

 

Personally, Cyst (and the name is appropriate), if you want to ask your questions, ask them in the NGD forum and ask what you want to know. Twice now I've seen you come right out and say that your reasons for the questions you ask actually had little to do with the games or genres in which you posted them. I'm sure there's more, but I don't read 'em all.

 

I don't think you have an "agenda" in the malicious sense, but you're not representing your reasons for asking the questions you do with any sort of integrity. You continually throw out additional questions to promote or incite some sort of given response. You take the intellectual high ground but won't let the issue settle. That's the mark of a troll to me, however intelligent and educated he may be.

 

Regardless of whether you think RPGs promote racism, my suggestion is to quit fanning the flames. I do not believe you represent roleplaying or gaming in general in any positive manner, and I for one don't appreciate your presence on the genre threads.

[Sylevus]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

If I place evil gods vs good gods in a battle for the universe, and mortals cater for the favor of one side or the other and allow themselves to be manipulated as part of a greater battle, how is this plain jane vanilla stereotyping?

 

If Ugror the Orc pledges his life to Gruumsh and commits acts of violence and rage against civilized lands for the promise of power, wealth, or pleasure.... then is it not fair to say that Ugror and his people are evil? I am sure if you catch Ugror in a position where he does not have the upper hand he will be ever so much more reasonable and accomodating, but that is only so long as he believes you have the upper hand. Should you believe every excuse he makes for his behavior? Should you go out of your way to invent excuses for his behavior? Or do you stand up to it? If his being nice is only a matter of momentary powerlessness how do you trust him for the future? Can you? Should you? When your descendants are cursed with his actions and hate will you then regret your mercy? Will his ability to beg off of his actions and claim to want to be better, while all the time building himself up stronger embolden others to stand up the same?

 

I hope you can see an interesting parallel here.. Good people must be strong to stand up to evil people. Once you have identified them, you must find a solution to the problem. Greed, jealousy, religious hatred... all of these things are in our face at the moment. Giving wealth will not give respect, instead it just gives power and strength to people obviously willing to use it wrongly.

 

So I for one will make sure that evil is shown for what it is, and reward the heros in my campaign for being strong enough to stand up to it!

[Beetle]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

In an attempt to come at this topic in a different way, I would pose a question to all those who answered 'no' to this thread's title.

 

Do you think creators of fantastic fiction can use imaginary groups of 'people' to foster real life tolerance towards others in their audience?

 

Specifically, I'm thinking of X-Men and Star Trek. Both these series have specifically intended to encourage their audiences to be more tolerant through the examples of their characters. Both Professor X and Jean-Luc Picard are the moral voice of those series, and they actively enourage us throughout the series to treat all others with tolerance. Is it possible for this to have any affect on how people who read/watch these series act and believe in real life? If you answer yes, then why doesn't the opposite hold true in treating orcs as homogemously evil?

Interesting question, but I'm not sure that it really applies. In the case of Star Trek and X-Men, the authors are deliberately creating situations with real-world counterparts. In other words, they are intentionally creating in their works a fictional variant of real-life situations with the purpose of making the reader think. That's not usually the case in a fantasy RPG.

[Beetle]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

[wading into a conversation that I know I should avoid]

 

The problem with races that are "evil because they are evil" is not that they promote racism in otherwise pure minds. People are tribalist by nature, and assign evil traits to those outside the tribe with abandon. The problem with evil races in fiction is that it accepts this tribalism, and feeds it back to us without processing it. "Evil races" are 2-dimensional by design, and are a poor excuse for actual characters. In gaming, they are lazy storytelling, and a shortcut I try to avoid.

 

Had Tolkein written the Lord of The Rings about Aragorn, a noble human who rallied his troops against an unfeeling horde of inhuman beasts, led by a personification of Evil, few would remember him, except as a hack. Instead, he wrote about a little man who had to struggle with his own demons, knowing that in the end, his failure almost destroyed the world, except that his merciful decisions earlier saved him.

 

Evil Orcs don't make people racist. But anyone who gives any thought to the true nature of evil in the world will be bored, bored, bored, by them.

[/wading into a conversation that I know I should avoid]

Hey, we all knew better than to get involved with this, it just didn't stop us. (Maybe WotC can use involvement in this thread as an example of the difference between Intelligence and Wisdom in their next edition... )

 

Interesting point about Tolkein. I'm re-reading LotR beginning to end for the first time since high school. While I'm enjoying the story and the language, I do find myself wondering what the Gross National Product of Mordor is. How does Sauron feed his troops (does he trade with the Haradrim?)

 

Lawrence Watt-Evans has a list of "Rules for Fantasy Writers" one of which is that evil people don't believe themselves to be evil. Everybody thinks he's in the right (something he uses to good effect in his novel "Touched by the Gods")

[cyst13]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Vanguard00,

 

Of all the people who've posted disagreements with my positions on these boards, you're the first and only one to explicitly say that I do not have the right to do so. If I had not started this thread or others, then all the posters who contributed enlightening and stimulating thoughts to them would not have had the opportunity to do so. I do not believe the RPG community is in any way the worse for my having posted threads to these boards. Nor have I ever admitted to having nefarious ulterior motives. If my thoughts have evolved throughout the course of a thread, that's a natural result of participating in a debate.

 

If my opinions are truly noxious to you, might I suggest that in the future you ignore all threads bearing my name?

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Of all the people who've posted disagreements with my positions on these boards, you're the first and only one to explicitly say that I do not have the right to do so. If I had not started this thread or others, then all the posters who contributed enlightening and stimulating thoughts to them would not have had the opportunity to do so. I do not believe the RPG community is in any way the worse for my having posted threads to these boards. Nor have I ever admitted to having nefarious ulterior motives. If my thoughts have evolved throughout the course of a thread, that's a natural result of participating in a debate.

 

If my opinions are truly noxious to you, might I suggest that in the future you ignore all threads bearing my name?

 

 

Aw, he's all right... he's just being Dave.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Vanguard00,

 

Of all the people who've posted disagreements with my positions on these boards, you're the first and only one to explicitly say that I do not have the right to do so.

 

Whoa there, Sally. I never said any such thing. I would never say any such thing. You ought to look up the word "explicitly", cuz I don't think it means what you think it means. I didn't even disagree with your position. You, like another, need to not put words in my mouth and just read the words on the page.

 

What I said was, I don't believe that you contribute to roleplaying or gaming in general in any appreciable fashion with these questions, and that I don't appreciate your presence on the genre threads. I also suggested going to NGD and posting your questions there without the veneer of "as it relates to gaming".

 

Go back and check my post. That's what I said. Honest. I'll wait...

 

My opinion is as good as any other on this board and I expressed it after watching you continually direct the thread into (potentially) increasingly inflammatory areas. I maintain that belief. Being my belief, it is never wrong. It can be misguided, based on a false premise, changed at a later date, but never wrong. It's what I believe right now, and it's perfectly valid.

 

If my opinions are truly noxious to you, might I suggest that in the future you ignore all threads bearing my name?

 

I'm a curious sort so I had to check at least a couple of 'em out. This is one I followed all the way through, just to see if my theory bore up under scrutiny. It does. I might not ever say anything again, having spoken my piece here. Ignoring you is certainly an option, of course, but I don't think it's come to that yet.

 

It's my belief that in the common usage on discussion boards, and based upon what I've seen so far, that you're a troll. A well-spoken and seemingly well-educated troll, and perhaps untintentionally so, but your questions are all geared towards inciting heated debate, something which usually quickly disolves into flaming as buttons are pushed. Your questions about women, race, etc, seem highly inflammatory, and in the context in which you present them they seem to have only the thinnest relationship to gaming, and virtually none at all the Hero System genre boards in which you post them.

 

I can't do anything about your presence here but come right out and say that I don't appreciate it. That's it. That's what I came to say. I can't do anything more than that. It's not my place to, nor would I have it any other way. I do, however, have the right to say such, and I felt it appropriate, so I did.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Aw' date=' he's all right... he's just being Dave.[/quote']

 

 

Hrm...I have no idea how to respond to that.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I've found cyst13's threads to be extremely interesting. A little heated perhaps but that's perfectly understandable given the subject matter.

 

I certainly don't think he's a troll. He just wants to talk about subjects that interest him.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Tonight I've been writing up a history for a fantasy world, which purely by coincidence (honest!) is quite strongly racist.

 

I've got a first race of men who were created by the gods - superior to the men of the current era (and the races that arose in the intervening period) in every respect. However they interbred with other races of men that sprung up (my history doesn't say how these lesser races came to be) diluting their racial purity. This led to moral weakness and the first race were destroyed by the gods in a great flood.

 

Now if that's not racism I don't know what is. It's straight out of Theosophy and Nazi mythology (with its story about how the Jews deliberately interbred with the Aryans to dilute their racial purity). Admittedly I don't say whether any of the races were black.

[badger3k]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

On a similar bent, there's a webcomic I'm reading - Elf-Only Inn.

 

Sounds good, right? Well, the name is the name of a chat room. Obviously, the room is not Elves-Only. Here's one with surface elves, dark elves, and racism?

 

http://www.elfonlyinn.net/d/20040413.html

[badger3k]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Here's one a few pages later:

 

http://www.elfonlyinn.net/d/20040503.html

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Elf Only Inn:

 

No Dwarves Or Irish

[dbsousa]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

If Ugror the Orc pledges his life to Gruumsh and commits acts of violence and rage against civilized lands for the promise of power' date=' wealth, or pleasure.... then is it not fair to say that Ugror and his people are evil? [/quote']

 

It is fair to say that Ugror is Evil. It is not fair to say that his people are evil.

 

I hope you can see an interesting parallel here.. Good people must be strong to stand up to evil people. Once you have identified them, you must find a solution to the problem.

 

I do see the parallel, and reject it. Good people need to stand up to the evil in themselves. You can't identify evil people from good, because the ability to do good or evil exists in each of us.

 

As this pertains to Gaming...

I have been thinking about this topic long before I read the thread. In my post apocalyptic fantasy game My group's characters come from four races (Cribbed heavily from Savage Earth and Gamma World), each with enmity towards the others. My goal, (and I suspect my player's goal as well) is to tell a story in which racial enmity is the evil in the land, and their rejection of it will save the world and all its races.

 

This is an intrinsically difficult foe to personify, but he will definitely have a kick-ass Laser Beam for an arm...

[assault]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

There are two aspects to my answer.

 

First, the idea that roleplaying encourages racism is on a par with the idea that roleplaying encourages devil-worship.

 

Second: Orcs in my universe are evil because they were made that way. They have no more choice than robots do. No free will. No capacity to choose between good and evil.

 

If anything, perhaps, that possibly disqualifies them from being evil, but it certainly disqualifies them from being good.

 

They are the tormented, insane, slaves of Evil, often with at least some streak of demonic ancestry.

 

Could a child fathered by an Orc be brought up Good? I don't know. Usually Orcs either murder those they rape, or drag them away to the Pits. Since those Orcs with the greatest element of demonic ancestry are the most likely to successfully reproduce, any such "Good" Orc is likely to be pretty deeply corrupt on a spiritual level.

[Sylevus]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

So the question maybe should not be are the people inherently evil. But is the society weak enough to allow acts of evil to go unchallenged. To allow evildoers to reward each other and go unpunished. Does the society enable bad people to gather together and use fear to control the actions of those around them?

 

The evil orc chief does not control each and every orc. He controls ten orcs who control ten other orcs, and within the community of orcs there may be 100s of individuals who COULD stand up to him, but do not because they fear that they will do so alone and face the tens of tens all alone. The systems and rules of this society do not encourage people to stand together, for the sheer reason that they are put in place to KEEP people from standing together against the leader.

 

So we try to make the orcs morally equivalent to the elves and what do we get? One society that would rather not fight, but has to for their survival. And one society where the best and the brightest see the only opportunity for reward as pushing the aggression. Assuming the elves can talk to the orcs, what are the chances of finding the 100s of dissatisfied just want to get along orcs, and not one of the tens of tens networked throughout?

 

The inability and lack of willingness of a society to deal with evil is a problem for that society. We have people in America today telling us we should not confront others because being judgemental is wrong. More wrong somehow than the killing and maiming of innocents. More wrong than removing the source of power for an evil man to allow the 100s of people the opportunity to stand up and reject his evil.

 

Yet our results are not what we hoped for. The people are not culturally strong enough to repudiate the evil and stand up against the elements who are now trying to redefine the actions of the US as something less than what they are. There are individual of course who are the exception, the brave leaders willing to risk their own lives as part of the government, but how many are there as a stepping stone for their own advancement only? How many in the army merely to feed their families, but not to provide order and security.

The terrorists walk free in most communities. Able to cause fear because the community still does not reject these types of behaviors.

 

So yes. A race can be prone to evil and evil actions. The culture can allow, encourage, even foment evil actions. And you can not separate these actions from the people willing to let them happen. In our games the heros are supposed to care. They are supposed to belong to a side that is willing to stand up to the very physical AND spiritual presence of evil.

 

I know playing shades of grey is an interesting topic of debate. But at some point you have to step away from the intangible and see what the results are. The orcs may not be desirous of hurting elves, but they allow it to happen. They allow their anger to be directed that way. THey buy into the hate. And even if the elves Kill Chief Ugror, there is still another Ugror waiting in the background for his chance to lead, and another and another. So what choice do the elves have? Do they hope removing one Ugror gives the orcs the chance to change? Do they show the better example by retreating from his advances and refusing to offer conflict? Do they allow the destruction of their homes and forest?

 

You can argue shades of grey until you are blue in the face, but at some point in your life when you are faced with the actions of evil men... what will you do? What will you tolerate? How much will YOU excuse? All this debate paralyzing people into inactivity because they doubt their ability to make a difference is a joke. Its a weakness in society that encourages the terrorists to act. Osama bin Laden pushed, and pushed, and pushed again to the point he felt America was weak for the taking. And he is still half right given the amount of people willing to equate our actions in Iraq, and the deaths involved as being equivalent to his actions against New York City.

 

Misguided or not, our presence in the Middle East has always been intended to protect our economic health and hopefully to be a broker or mediator for peace. Unfortunately we exercise our power only through words, and the cultures in the middle east have a long history of playing with words. So instead of a shield against violence, we become the crutch used by people to commit violence. I believe the Israelis want peace. I believe the leaders of the Palestenians do not.

 

They use our freedom of speech to bandy around nice speeches about wanting peace while planning attacks against civilians and fomenting racial hatred of their neighbors. The US in the name of peace and regional stability forces Israel to hold back, and honestly forces the neighbors to stay out of the debate... directly. But money and hatred is supplied in no short demand by the neighbors and the willingness of people to stand up for others wanting to take things from those who have them instead of building things better for themselves.

 

At some point in our times we need to call things what they are and hold people accountable for the results. If the Palestenians want peace, then the Palestenian people have to demand it of their leaders and repudiate those committing acts of violence. The Israelis need to be strong and willing to negotiate, but not torn apart by weakness, hestitance, and a lack of unity. In short they need to show a strength and willingness to do what is right so that their neighbors are willing to do what is right.