"Manna" as a Characteristic

[Osprey]

In a new campaign I'm working up, I am starting a campaign Specific rule that adds a new Characteristic, Manna.

 

Some GMs use Manna as Magic Only END.

They allow Mages to get it from certain sources and then provide those sources in game play.

 

I recently saw a web site that suggested letting the Mage recover Manna with a good night's sleep.

 

I thought: why not make a new Characeteristic?

 

It begins at EGOx2 and cost 1 point per point to increase.

REC adds to it, just like END. But if it reaches 0, you're out until you recharge.

 

Yes, I want opinions!

[Derek Hiemforth]

Fantasy Hero Companion II for 4th Edition HERO System introduced the optional Characteristics of Mana (MAN) and Mana Recovery (MRC). MAN was based on EGOx2 (analogous to END and its interaction with CON) and MRC was based on INT/5 + EGO/5 (analogous to REC and its interaction with STR and CON). I've used it in FH games, and it seems to work fine.

[Markdoc]

In principle the idea is fine. You might want to think about how you wnat spellcasting to work. If you make MANA analogous to END (which you have done) then it will work the same way. That means that Mages will almost always start a fight with a full battery of spells, and that MANA use outside combat will normally be irrelevant.

 

If you want Magic to be a bit a bit more restricted, you might like to delay the return rate.

 

I am currently working on a Runequest conversion to Hero (actually, it is finished - I'm just finishing up the conversion of all the spells). In that game, I have swapped out EGO for a new characteristic called POW (Power). It works in all ways like EGO, so the change is cosmetic, mostly :-). I have also added a new Figured characteristic called Magic points (duh!) which is 1x POW. All spells take the limitation (consumes Magic points). Magic points regenerate more slowly than END, letting people cast multiple spells per day, but not giving them free range

 

That's just an example of changing the system - it seesm to work well, so I see no reason your suggestion would notalso work.

 

My caveat is that I do not like changing the system so far that you could not easily move a character from your game to another game, and I doubt that what you propose would be a problem.

 

cheers, Mark

[tesuji]

My preference for mana is and end reserve with a mandatory recovery rate of per hour (-2 iirc.)

 

This does several things.

 

First, it avoids any figured characteristic issues. If EGo for instance provides manam for free as a fig'd, then you should consider whether EGo is still just 2 cp per point.

 

Second, it gets rid of several problem issues i always had with endurance based magic. The main one was that it meant there was only a short term tactical limit, since recovery of magic end took minutes at the most. By simply making it a factor of time, it adds a daily strategic element.

 

The "model" behind it was that of a simple collector. One physical difference between "mages" and "normal people" was that a mage acted like a mana sponge. mana existed in low concentrations almost everywhere. Most people passed thru it like air. Mages acted like sponges, just naturally collected it and storing it up. So a typical mage would regain maybe 9 mana an hour (recovery 9 at per hour costs like 3 cp) and the storage capabilities varied with the mage. He would simply buy endurance reserve, some up to 120 some up to 200+ depending on how much they wanted to invest.

[Osprey]

Thanks Derek for pointing out the similar statements in FHCII!

 

I always thought I had a connection with the 4th Ed Designers!

(Jury is still out with DOJ).

 

The great caveat I see so far is to lessen the Recovery Rate: How about basing Manna REC on just EGO/5?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Osprey

The great caveat I see so far is to lessen the Recovery Rate: How about basing Manna REC on just EGO/5?

It really depends on what you want for your world. If magic is very prominent, it might be fine to use MAN and MRC exactly like END and REC, making spellcasting no more tiring than any "normal" kind of exertion. If magic is not that prominent, then you might go with a smaller MRC and/or MAN, or you might have MAN recover like Long-Term END Loss instead of normal END. If magic is very rare or restricted, you might even have MAN recover like BODY. It's all a matter of taste.

[Lord Liaden]

On the temporary discussion boards, someone was asking how to model a magic system where the energy that powered magic spells could be increased over time with no upper limit, but only through the application of certain rituals; however, casting spells would drain the reserve of energy until the proper rituals could be performed again. What I came up with represents some principles that might be of interest to people looking to model a "mana" system, so I'll just pass it on here:

 

Try buying an END Reserve for spells with no Recovery at all, and take the "Never Recovers" Limitation from Charges for it (-2). That means that when END is used to power spells, those END points are "permanently" gone.

 

Assign a certain number of Experience Points to ritual activities designed to restore the reserve of power (sacrifices, prayers, meditation, acquiring materials, etc.), perhaps requiring a Skill Roll to perform successfully. Use that Experience as Character Points solely to buy more END for the reserve. Since those Character Points are directly increasing the size of the Reserve, it can continue to grow as long as the character keeps feeding it points, but will shrink again when he expends END for his spells; thus the size of the Reserve can grow or shrink freely.

 

There are several potential benefits to this approach over the standard END Reserve or a Mana stat. The Reserve can be increased indefinitely provided a spell caster has the time and resources to perform the necessary rituals, allowing him to "save up" for a really major spell casting. The GM can set the amount of Experience gained from each performance of a ritual, and the difficulty of said ritual, to govern how easily a character can regain END. Restrictive conditions on the rituals make it easy for the GM to put a character in a position where he can't recharge his Reserve, requiring him to husband his END use.

 

Note that with the Never Recovers Limitation, the ratio of END to Experience Points would be 30/1, which IMO is a pretty fair tradeoff for some difficulty in increasing the END Reserve.

 

Hope that's of some use to someone.

[Lucius]

Mana, not Manna

 

Lord Liaden - that sounds like a unique and interesting system.

 

Several other people had good ideas too.

 

I have proposed, especially for "clerics," the use of an END Reserve with a RECover that is "No Conscious Control." Whether it recovers, and how much, and when, is totally in the Game Operations Director's hands, and it could be used to reward whatever behaviors one wants to encourage - prayer, sacrifice, "right" moral action ("You drop HALF your coins in the beggar's bowl? You get a warm feeling of having done the right thing, and get your full Mana RECovery for the next three phases,") making a skill roll: Meditation, poring over arcane tomes, etc.

 

I suspect in practice this would work like Lord Liaden's system, but a little less so.

 

Oh, and one quibble - the word is spelled "mana," from the Polynesian. "Manna" is from Hebrew and means a miraculously provided sustenance. In Hero terms, Manna might be Life Support (don't starve) with an Area Effect.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Pompous pretentious pedantic person on a palindromedary, and he uses too much alliteration too.

[tiger]

I had debated on having magic using characters, be it mage, cleric or bard, have a End Reserve.

 

All spells would have to come from them and they could only recover in a Mana area. I have several spots in my world that are mana dead.

 

I have since decide that Spells work of any mana not just those the caster has. So as long as the spell is being cast in a Mana area it will work.

 

The caster spends end to show the strain f casting a spell.

 

Items with out charges work the same way.

 

Your +2 sword is only +2 in a mana area. Healing potions that have 4 charges however are different. Weapons are designed to use the mana in the area to work. Potions and such have the mana put into them when their made. The won't go away until the mana is used up.

 

Now anti-magic shells will prevent them from working, being a surpression, but a mana dead area will do nothing to the item.

[Victor]

Change Environment vs. Magic

 

Something else that might be interesting to try would be to treat magic, or mana as the case may be, as an environmental factor... simulating ley lines, mana pools, mystical convergances, holy days, or whatever.

 

In areas with a higher magical/mana rating, mana or END batteries may recover faster (+1 REC/Level), but be harder to control (-1 to magical RSR's/level). At extremely high levels, perhaps even mundanes (including creatures/beasts/monsters) are capable of tapping into limited amounts of magic (5 AP per level above +3), and the effects of skilled magic users enhanced (likewise, by 5 per level above +3), but are mentally tormented by the strain (-1 to INT/EGO rolls per level above 3).

 

Areas with low magic may slow recovery to mana or END batteries (-1 REC per level). At low levels, spells may be more tiring to cast (+1 END cost per level), or be less effective (-5 AP per level). At extremely low levels, targets of magic spells may be harder to affect (+25% damage reduction, resistant, vs. magical effects, per 2 levels below -3), and those attuned to magical energies may be physically weakened (-1 to CON-based rolls per level below -3, and 2x END cost for physical tasks).

[Steve Long]

This all goes to show there are about a zillion ways to skin a magic system in the HERO System. Fantasy Hero definitely covers all the key concepts and possibilities, but it's certainly nowhere near as extensive as the combined imaginations of Herodom Assembled.

[Killer Shrike]

If you make Mana a stat, all is good BUT it does make it harder to use tools like Hero Designer.

 

Also, think about it from the perspective of non-magic using characters. All characters are getting 10 points or more of a free stat AND free points of a figured characteristic that is useless to the non-magic user but crucial to the magic user.

 

Its similar to saying you want Weapon-of-Choice Swinging to come out of a special pool of END seperate from normal END and made a HACK stat with a HACKREC figured.

 

Or what if you wanted Psionics to come out of a special pool of END seperate from normal END and made a PSP stat with a PSPREC figured. Same deal.

 

As something that is only relative to spell casters, and as something that is advantageous to have (ie, you can drain your "Mana" and not be physically exhausted), it should be paid for by spellcasters and not floated as a stat with free starting points.

 

The Mana Pool concept is a perfect fit for an END Pool. Set the REC to whatever suits you (such as after Rest, RSR: Meditation, etc). Items that have 'Mana' built into them are just an Aid to Mana Pool in an IND FOCI, either Expendible or with Charges that Never Recover.

 

IMO YMMV, of course.

[Osprey]

No doubt the most popular thread I ever started

 

Thanks for all the GREAT IDEAS.

 

I will probably use the rule for varying Mana Recovery on Location and other factors.

 

It seems to that The only difference between this and the END Reserve Idea is 1-8 points. In some campaigns it could be a balance consideration, but in mine (which is low fantasy) few are left in the lurch.

 

I'm also trying to REALLY simplify things because the players range in age from 14 to 6!

Yes I am finally teaching my kids (and their friends) to Play!

 

I considered running a "No END" campaign, but don't want the kids using magic to do everything. For their benifit, I'm calling the Mana Characteristic, "Magic Points".

 

Oh, and thanks Lucius for the spelling correction.

As an amature theologian I should have realized that!