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Building real ranged weapon


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#1 wick

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 10:22 AM

 I was seeking to create the weapon listed on page 219 of Champions Complete but I am unclear of the limitations used and the best way to get the OCV bonus, Rmod and StunX

 

I suppose you can build it as a compound power (AK47 example A/R 63/19):

-RKA 2d6: Advantages: Autofire 5 (+1/2), Charges 30 (+1/4), OAF (-1), Restrainable (-1/2), Requires Hands: 2 handed (-1/2), STR minimum 9 (-1/2), Beam (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4)

-+1 OCV: CSL +1 to AK47 Attack (2 points) or use power characteristic: OCV+1 (5 points)

- Rmod +1: CSL +1 to AK47 attack  with limitation only to counteract range penalties ( but what limitation do you use [limited power??] and how much value do you give it) or use power characteristic: OCV+1 (5 points) with the appropriate limitation

StunX+1  : Increase Stun Multiplier (+1/4) to the killing attack 

 

 

 

To get as close to the example weapon as possible I built it like this:

 

AK-47 7.62mm Assault Rifle:  (Total: 70 Active Cost, 22 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2) (60 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1), Restrainable (-1/2), Requires Hands: 2 handed (-1/2), STR minimum 9 (-1/2), Beam (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), 30 Charges (+1/4) (Real Cost: 15) <b>plus</b> +1 OCV (Real Cost: 5) <b>plus</b> +1 OCV (5 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses almost all of its effectiveness (-2) (Real Cost: 2)

 

My version comes out to 70 Active points and a real cost of 22.  VS the cost on the table of 63 and 19.  I got closer to the listed weapon when I forget to add the +1 stun multiplier advantage at 62/20. 

 

I suppose in a heroic level game you could just go with the listed price, But I was building a follower in a superheroic game who is a very competent normal person but if needed can access an armory of normal weapons bought through a VPP. 

 

The difference may be due to how the charges are built and the ability to replace charges. There is an option that says, "Recovered under unusual circumstances" is that for Recoverable charges or for any type of charges.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#2 Hyper-Man

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 10:50 AM

You forgot to add Real Weapon to the HD build.

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#3 mrinku

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 02:21 PM

I thought you couldn't take Restrainable and Focus together?

 

(CC p115) "A power should not take both Restrainable and Focus; Foci have their own defined means of depriving characters of the powers they provide."



#4 Era Scarecrow

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 02:56 PM

I thought you couldn't take Restrainable and Focus together?


I wondered that too, although if the weapon was built with it (in the books) I wonder how and why... unless the weapons were build on an older version of HS and got grandfathered in or forgotten about... (because other than having to cost money for heroic characters I don't see why it would be an issue)

#5 Hyper-Man

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 04:03 PM

The John Wick / Keanu Reeves link in my sig below contains an m16/m4 build you can use for comparison.

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#6 Crusher Bob

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 04:06 PM

I can get to the 63 active point cost: the 2d6 RKA with +1 total advantages is 60 points, the 2 points for a specific power OCV level, then 1 point for a single attack range penalty skill level, so 63 active points in total.

The two levels would each cost 1 real point, so that means that the real cost of the RKA would have to be 17 points, which you would get at a total of 2.5 worth of limitations.  So I'd guess that the original limitations build looks something like:

 

OAF (-1)

STR minimum 9 (-1/2)

Requires Hands: 2 handed (-1/4)

Beam (-1/4)

No Knockback (-1/4)

Real Weapon (-1/4)
 

which gets you to -2.5. or maybe it was two hand (-1/2) and no real weapon?



#7 Hyper-Man

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 04:17 PM

I think the minimum active cost of a CSL with limitations is 5 points.

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#8 Cantriped

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 04:18 PM

According to the rules for Designing Weapons (CC 165) and using the statistics given for the 7.62mm AK-47 Assault Rifle (CC 219), it should be written like so:

 

7.62mm AK-47 Assault Rifle:  RKA 2d6 (Physical), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), 1 Clip of 30 Charges (+1/4) (60 APs); Beam (-1/4), OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum (13; -1/2), Two-Handed (-1/2) plus ​+1 OCV (as a 2-point CSL) (2 APs) OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), Two-Handed (-1/2) plus​ +1 versus Range Modifiers (as a 1-point PSL) (1 APs) OAF (-1), Two-Handed (-1/2). Total Cost: 19 points (17+1+1).

​Durability:  12 rPD/12 rED   Usage:  ​1 Clip of 30 Charges, Half-Phase Action to Reload.

 

I built the OCV and RMod elements exactly as described by ​Fantasy Hero​ (6th edition) 217. No justifications were given for why they can/must take Required Hands, or why OCV takes Real Weapon, but RMod does not... However, the construct above does have the same total Active and Real point values as described by CC.


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#9 Cantriped

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 04:23 PM

I think the minimum active cost of a CSL with limitations is 5 points.

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In CC/FHC it is only 2-point CSLs (also called "Specific" Levels) which cannot have limitations applied to them. All other types of CSLs, and all types of PSLs can have limitations applied to them normally. Weapons have been being built as the unwritten exception to that rule. 



#10 mrinku

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 04:53 PM

The listing on CCp 219 wick is referring to is:

 

AK-47; +1 OCV; +1 RMod; 2d6K damage; +1 STUNx; 30 shots; STR MIN 13; 2H; AF5. Active cost is given as 63, real cost 19.

 

Base power is 2d6 RKA (30 pts), +1 OCV CSL (2pts), +1 Penalty Skill Level vs Range (1 pt); 33pts base. Increased Stun Multiple (+¼), Autofire 5 shots (+½), 30 charges (+¼); 66 points active.

 

(Not sure why it's listed as 63 points. The only thing I can think of is that the CSL and PSL have been added after applying advantages.)

 

OAF (-1), STR Min 13 (-½), Required Hands (Two, -½), Real Weapon (-¼); 20 points real. (However 19 is the correct value for a -2¼ Limitation on a 63 active point power).

 

EDIT: Cantriped has neatly explained it.

 

Some comments:

 

No Knockback isn't a modifier I'd use for normal guns - it's really more for lasers and things that do their killing damage mainly through means other than kinetic energy (a HEAT round could fall into that category). KAs already get a reduced KB modifier and if you're running with the full KB rules (as opposed to the more realistic knockdown) a bit of unrealistic KB now and then is to be expected.

 

Most 2d6 RKA attacks will do no KB (2d6 BODY minus 3d6 KB roll) and the distance travelled is going to be small. If an invulnerable brick is tagged by a Tank Gun - well I don't think a few inches of KB is out of line, eh? If it bothers you, just say "real weapons do Knockdown" and move on.

 

Beam would require autofire to be used at all times, so is not appropriate for a selective fire rifle. Real Weapon is sufficient to ensure the user doesn't use combat options that are not available to a real rifle, IMHO. Just read CC p.165 and it is meant to have Beam.

 

As noted in the build, the Range Mod thing is done with Penalty Skill Levels vs Range (this could be more explicit in the book, though it is there in the p165 section on building real weapons). No need to build CSLs with limitations for that.


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#11 Cantriped

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 05:05 PM

Beam would require autofire to be used at all times, so is not appropriate for a selective fire rifle.

Beam and Autofire have no mechanical interaction whatsoever. Beam was basically tailor written to represent the mechanical limitations of all physical projectile weapons. Beam forces you to cause maximum damage (you can't chose to do only 1d6 instead of 2d6), prevents you from Spreading the attack, and prevents damage from leaving (2m or larger) holes in the terrain. Which is admittedly more than any other -1/4 Limitation does.



#12 mrinku

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 05:09 PM

Yeah. Everyone was posting all at once - I didn't get a chance to read the other ones until after I'd sent mine :)

 

I've struck out the redundant parts of mine. Probably my biggest mistake was not calculating the costs of the component powers independently.



#13 massey

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 06:00 PM

According to the rules for Designing Weapons (CC 165) and using the statistics given for the 7.62mm AK-47 Assault Rifle (CC 219), it should be written like so:

7.62mm AK-47 Assault Rifle: RKA 2d6 (Physical), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), 1 Clip of 30 Charges (+1/4) (60 APs); Beam (-1/4), OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum (13; -1/2), Two-Handed (-1/2) plus ​+1 OCV (as a 2-point CSL) (2 APs) OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), Two-Handed (-1/2) plus​ +1 versus Range Modifiers (as a 1-point PSL) (1 APs) OAF (-1), Two-Handed (-1/2). Total Cost: 19 points (17+1+1).
​Durability: 12 rPD/12 rED Usage: ​1 Clip of 30 Charges, Half-Phase Action to Reload.

I built the OCV and RMod elements exactly as described by ​Fantasy Hero​ (6th edition) 217. No justifications were given for why they can/must take Required Hands, or why OCV takes Real Weapon, but RMod does not... However, the construct above does have the same total Active and Real point values as described by CC.


Ain't no way an AK-47 has 12 resistant defense.

#14 mrinku

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 06:17 PM

I'd suggest that "Real Weapon" can take care of that. Apply PD/ED based on the materials used to construct it. In this case hardened steel (the stock is technically made of weaker materials but damaging the stock won't affect the action itself, just maybe causing an OCV penalty). PD8 ED10? The materials list in CC isn't too exhaustive.

 

The default 12 rDEF works fine for superheroes.



#15 Era Scarecrow

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 06:18 PM

Ain't no way an AK-47 has 12 resistant defense.


well, let's look under the focus
 

A Breakable Focus has PD and ED equal to the (Active Points/5) of the largest power bought through the Focus; the minimum PD/ED is 3 (unless the GM rules otherwise). For instance, a gun with a Blast 10d6 has a PD/ED of 10; if the gun also had 50 points in Flight and 20 points in Life Support, its PD/ED would still be 10.


so 60AP / 5 = 12... that sounds right to me. Although I'm looking to see if they are resistant or not.

#16 wick

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 06:23 PM

Penalty Skill Levels!!  Doh! totally forgot about those. And looks like they did use CSL for the + to OCV. 

 

Didn't know about  Restrainable and Focus being mutually exclusive. I figured one stopped you from using the power by entangling/grabbing the limb with the power while focus meant you could be disarmed (via a disarm attack) or have your power taken away if KO'd.  

 

Thank you Cantriped. Although that is odd why the added powers only take some limitations. Maybe it is because the extra limitation points don't matter because the powers have to cost at least 1 Real point. 


PC#1: She has mind control.
PC#2: Don't all women?
Me: Yeah, it's bought with a Focus....Obvious....usually Inaccessible.

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#17 mrinku

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 06:45 PM

Thank you Cantriped. Although that is odd why the added powers only take some limitations. Maybe it is because the extra limitation points don't matter because the powers have to cost at least 1 Real point. 

 

I think it's more that those limitations don't make sense to the effect in question. The +1 CSL isn't Autofire, nor is it subject to charges or STR Min. OAF, 2H and Real Weapon all apply (I think Cantriped probably left Real Weapon off the PSL by mistake, but it doesn't affect the point cost).

 

If the +1 CSL was purchased with Autofire (highly unusual, but technically legal, I think) you would probably have to make a separate roll to hit unmodified by the +1, then apply +1 OCV per 2 points that the roll was made by to the actual roll to hit.



#18 Cantriped

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 07:26 PM

Thank you Cantriped. Although that is odd why the added powers only take some limitations. Maybe it is because the extra limitation points don't matter because the powers have to cost at least 1 Real point. 

 

I think Cantriped probably left Real Weapon off the PSL by mistake, but it doesn't affect the point cost.

It wasn't a mistake, I left it off because I was following the instructions given on the weapon table in Fantasy Hero ​6th edition. You can also find the same rules in the Hero System Equipment Guide (on page 30 under Fantasy Ranged Weapons Key and repeated elsewhere in other similar tables).

 

Personally I don't think Required Hands is applicable to powers that don't already take STR Minimum, and Real Weapon is technically only applicable to Attack Powers (which CSLs and PSLs are not). My normal inclination would have been to only place the Focus modifier on the CSL & PSL elements. I would argue that both elements should also take Linked to the main Attack Power, because those levels should only be used with that particular weapon, not just with any weapon of its kind. Per RAW, if you carried two Assault Rifles (or two Laser Pistols), you should get a +2 OCV to attacks made with either of them since nothing is currently preventing the CSLs & PSLs bought through them from applying to other weapons of the same type (except common sense of course).

 

Alternatively, Dark Champions​ 5th edition suggested using 5-point CSLs with Focus, Real Weapon, and Required Hands, and 3-point PSLs with Focus, Real Weapon, and Required Hands (​Dark Champions 201). 5-point CSLs, and 3-point PSLs were the smallest levels which could legally take Limitations at the time; according to Hero System Fifth Edition Revised ​(5eR 54 & 66). Using that logic, in 6th edition, the rule should be that they are built using 3-point CSLs and 1-point PSLs (as those are the smallest levels which can take Limitations in 6th/CC/FHC) with Focus, Real Weapon, and Required Hands.


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#19 dsatow

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 05:13 PM

I thought you couldn't take Restrainable and Focus together?

 

(CC p115) "A power should not take both Restrainable and Focus; Foci have their own defined means of depriving characters of the powers they provide."

 

Personally, I'd allow it.  Hawkman's and Hawkwoman's wings originally were harnesses and thus OIF (not easily taken away from them in combat) but could be fouled up (restrainable).  This would distinguish it from an OAF which could be grabbed and taken away in combat.


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#20 mrinku

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 06:53 PM

Regular wings used to be done as OAF back in the day, even non-detachable ones.

 

Restrainable (-½) plus Only in Alternate ID (-¼) would do for their harness version without needing to involve Focus. You end up with -¾ worth of limitations, which nicely straddles the cost between OIF and OAF.