Better ways to do Tractor Beams?

[cbullard]

The typical way of doing Tractor Beams for starships seems to be Telekinesis, and that does seem to fit the bill pretty well.

 

But it gets expensive, especially if you're trying to make one strong enough to hold another ship from getting away.

 

What do you guys think about doing a crude tractor beam as Clinging, with the Ranged advantage and the limitation that once it is activated the relative positions between the two vehicles cannot be changed.  You have to turn off the power, make the adjustments to relative positions, then turn the power back on again.  If you wanted, you could also add the limitation that it only works along one axis of the ship (directly in front/behind the ship, directly above/below, etc).

 

Thoughts?

[Tjack]

   I find TK is relatively inexpensive if your using limitations that are appropriate for Tractor Beams.

No Fine Detail, Visible Power Effects, Useable only in Zero Grav, Useable only in Vacuum, Only vs. Other ships, etc.

These and others bring the price down and are all reasonable defining limitations on the special effect.

 Your limitation about relative positions means you could never bring a ship any closer, like along side to dock, or to move it out of danger.

[dmjalund]

why Visible Power effects?

[Tjack]

   Why not?  You always saw them on Star Trek.  And it’s a limitation since it means you can’t do it secretly, or without say everyone on a nearby space station  or a third party spaceship knowing who’s moving what ship around.

[dmjalund]

I mean, if you buy TK off the shelf, it is visible by default.

[Tjack]

11 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

I mean, if you buy TK off the shelf, it is visible by default.

Oops.  Oh well, the point still stands.

[cbullard]

On 1/13/2021 at 6:33 AM, Tjack said:

   I find TK is relatively inexpensive if your using limitations that are appropriate for Tractor Beams.

No Fine Detail, Visible Power Effects, Useable only in Zero Grav, Useable only in Vacuum, Only vs. Other ships, etc.

These and others bring the price down and are all reasonable defining limitations on the special effect.

 Your limitation about relative positions means you could never bring a ship any closer, like along side to dock, or to move it out of danger.

 

Why would the relative positions limitation meaning you couldn't move a ship out of danger?   Is there some reason you wouldn't be able to activate this power onto a ship in danger, then activate your own engines and tow it?

 

I would disagree with the Only vs Other Ships limitation for a tractor beam.  Why shouldn't you be able to use it on an asteroid, etc?  Also, I don't recall any fandom saying that tractor beams can't be used in atmosphere or in Zero G.  On the contrary, they were used on a planet's tectonic plates in Trek:Next Gen to make people on a planet think they were experiencing an earthquake ("Devil's Due").

 

I can see limitations like Affects Whole Object, Beam, and Requires A Skill Roll, but it's still not exactly cheap.

 

Consider a fighter-sized ship (Size 9, STR 55).  To get a 55 STR for you tractor beam, you need:

Telekinesis, STR 55; Affects Whole Object (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Focus OIF Bulky (-1), Requires a Skill Roll (-1/2)

AP: 84, Real Cost: 28, END: 8, Range: 420"

 

By the same token, Clinging (even without the "only on one axis" limitation) for the same ship gets you:

Clinging (Normal STR, 55); Beam (-1/4), Focus OIF Bulky (-1), Requires a Skill Roll (-1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Increased Maximum Range x1 (375", +1/4), Costs Endurance (Every Phase, -1/2)

AP: 17, Real Cost: 5, END: 2, Range: 375"

So you have a slightly shorter range, and once you activate it you then have to use the ship's engines to actually move the object (so it won't work for a base or other non-mobile platform), for less than 1/5 of the CP cost and for 1/4 of the END cost.  If your ship is powerful enough, you could even do a fast turn with the ship and slingshot the object in question.
 

[Tjack]

37 minutes ago, cbullard said:

 

Why would the relative positions limitation meaning you couldn't move a ship out of danger?   Is there some reason you wouldn't be able to activate this power onto a ship in danger, then activate your own engines and tow it?

 

I would disagree with the Only vs Other Ships limitation for a tractor beam.  Why shouldn't you be able to use it on an asteroid, etc?  Also, I don't recall any fandom saying that tractor beams can't be used in atmosphere or in Zero G.  On the contrary, they were used on a planet's tectonic plates in Trek:Next Gen to make people on a planet think they were experiencing an earthquake ("Devil's Due").

 

I can see limitations like Affects Whole Object, Beam, and Requires A Skill Roll, but it's still not exactly cheap.

 

Consider a fighter-sized ship (Size 9, STR 55).  To get a 55 STR for you tractor beam, you need:

Telekinesis, STR 55; Affects Whole Object (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Focus OIF Bulky (-1), Requires a Skill Roll (-1/2)

AP: 84, Real Cost: 28, END: 8, Range: 420"

 

By the same token, Clinging (even without the "only on one axis" limitation) for the same ship gets you:

Clinging (Normal STR, 55); Beam (-1/4), Focus OIF Bulky (-1), Requires a Skill Roll (-1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Increased Maximum Range x1 (375", +1/4), Costs Endurance (Every Phase, -1/2)

AP: 17, Real Cost: 5, END: 2, Range: 375"

So you have a slightly shorter range, and once you activate it you then have to use the ship's engines to actually move the object (so it won't work for a base or other non-mobile platform), for less than 1/5 of the CP cost and for 1/4 of the END cost.  If your ship is powerful enough, you could even do a fast turn with the ship and slingshot the object in question.
 

   I had meant that you couldn’t move their ship without moving yourself.  Those other limitation ideas were never meant to the only ones possible or correct for your game, just some examples of my point.

[cbullard]

1 hour ago, Tjack said:

   I had meant that you couldn’t move their ship without moving yourself.  Those other limitation ideas were never meant to the only ones possible or correct for your game, just some examples of my point.

 

Ah, okay.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As for the limitations, almost every single one that could be applied to TK would also be applicable for Clinging, and you're starting with such a significantly lower AP value.

 

Regardless, the point was never meant to be, "TK for Tractor Beams is bad!"  It was just meant as, "Here's another alternative to consider, that costs WAY less."

[archer]

On 1/14/2021 at 1:04 PM, cbullard said:

 

Why would the relative positions limitation meaning you couldn't move a ship out of danger?   Is there some reason you wouldn't be able to activate this power onto a ship in danger, then activate your own engines and tow it?

 

I would disagree with the Only vs Other Ships limitation for a tractor beam.  Why shouldn't you be able to use it on an asteroid, etc?  Also, I don't recall any fandom saying that tractor beams can't be used in atmosphere or in Zero G.  On the contrary, they were used on a planet's tectonic plates in Trek:Next Gen to make people on a planet think they were experiencing an earthquake ("Devil's Due").

 

I can see limitations like Affects Whole Object, Beam, and Requires A Skill Roll, but it's still not exactly cheap.

 

Consider a fighter-sized ship (Size 9, STR 55).  To get a 55 STR for you tractor beam, you need:

Telekinesis, STR 55; Affects Whole Object (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Focus OIF Bulky (-1), Requires a Skill Roll (-1/2)

AP: 84, Real Cost: 28, END: 8, Range: 420"

 

By the same token, Clinging (even without the "only on one axis" limitation) for the same ship gets you:

Clinging (Normal STR, 55); Beam (-1/4), Focus OIF Bulky (-1), Requires a Skill Roll (-1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Increased Maximum Range x1 (375", +1/4), Costs Endurance (Every Phase, -1/2)

AP: 17, Real Cost: 5, END: 2, Range: 375"

So you have a slightly shorter range, and once you activate it you then have to use the ship's engines to actually move the object (so it won't work for a base or other non-mobile platform), for less than 1/5 of the CP cost and for 1/4 of the END cost.  If your ship is powerful enough, you could even do a fast turn with the ship and slingshot the object in question.
 

 

Put it in a multipower with other ship's weaponry.

 

After all, you don't typically see them holding an enemy ship still with the tractor beam while they pummel it with phasers.

[cbullard]

5 hours ago, archer said:

 

Put it in a multipower with other ship's weaponry.

 

After all, you don't typically see them holding an enemy ship still with the tractor beam while they pummel it with phasers.

Not typically, no.

[dougmacd]

On 1/13/2021 at 2:30 AM, cbullard said:

What do you guys think about doing a crude tractor beam as Clinging, with the Ranged advantage and the limitation that once it is activated the relative positions between the two vehicles cannot be changed.  You have to turn off the power, make the adjustments to relative positions, then turn the power back on again.  If you wanted, you could also add the limitation that it only works along one axis of the ship (directly in front/behind the ship, directly above/below, etc).

 

Clinging has a "range" of Self, so you can't put the Ranged advantage on it (6E1 p344).  Also, it doesn't prevent the target from moving; it just means they need to drag your mass along too. Unless your ship is a lot bigger/more massive, it may be trivial for them to pull you along with them.

 

 

Doug

[IndianaJoe3]

12 hours ago, archer said:

After all, you don't typically see them holding an enemy ship still with the tractor beam while they pummel it with phasers.

 

Use your tractors, damnit!

[archer]

5 hours ago, dougmacd said:

 

Clinging has a "range" of Self, so you can't put the Ranged advantage on it (6E1 p344). Also, it doesn't prevent the target from moving; it just means they need to drag your mass along too. Unless your ship is a lot bigger/more massive, it may be trivial for them to pull you along with them.

 

 

Workaround for that.

 

Give your ship megascale Stretching with an invisible power effect for it. 

 

Then buy the Clinging.  

 

If you want to have more than one target at once for your tractor beam, buy Extra Limbs.

 

< insert Klingon joke here >

 

Cling to the desired target with one limb. Cling to a nearby asteroids, planets, and/or ships with other limbs. 

 

Make the enemy ship have to tow everything along if it wants to get away. Or at least exceed your ship's STR.

[cbullard]

10 hours ago, dougmacd said:

 

Clinging has a "range" of Self, so you can't put the Ranged advantage on it (6E1 p344).  Also, it doesn't prevent the target from moving; it just means they need to drag your mass along too. Unless your ship is a lot bigger/more massive, it may be trivial for them to pull you along with them.

 

 

Doug

Thank you for pointing out these out.  You raise very good concerns.

 

For the "range of self" restriction -- I'm afraid I'm not sure of the 6e wording, as I only have the 5e books.  For 5e, the wording is:

"Generally speaking, characters cannot make [Self-ranged] Powers work at Range, nor can they apply the Area Of Effect Advantage to let others use the Power at the same time they do (that requires the Usable On Others Advantage, unless the GM gives permission otherwise).... Generally
speaking, characters can make these Powers work at Range by applying the Ranged (+½) Advantage." (5e, p.101)

If nothing else, I can also see some GMs agreeing to place it under a "rule of cool" umbrella regardless of what edition is used at that table.  It gives a different flavor and significantly different ramifications to something that has become a bit of a SciFi trope.
 

In my example, I also applied the "Increased Maximum Range" advantage.  Whether this was allowed, and to what extent, would be a GM call.  I did it in this case to make the two powers being discussed be as much of an "apples to apples" comparison as I could manage.

And no, this option doesn't prevent the target from moving, it only prevents it from moving relative to you.  Yes, this certainly means your ship could (and in many cases certainly would) be dragged along with whatever you're attaching to. 

 

That initial moment of contact could be a bit bumpy for those on your ship, too!  For it to be otherwise, your pilot/flight officer would have to match vectors with the object -- essentially the same as a docking maneuver.

 

Thank you for the input!

 

 

[archer]

I'd note that the STR table for Champions Complete estimates that you'd need 70 STR just to lift a large starship.

 

There might not be gravity in space but starships are still really massive. Most ships aren't going to be able to just casually tow a starship along behind it as if that starship is (for lack of a better word) weightless.

[Spence]

On 1/15/2021 at 3:11 PM, archer said:

 

Put it in a multipower with other ship's weaponry.

 

After all, you don't typically see them holding an enemy ship still with the tractor beam while they pummel it with phasers.

18 hours ago, cbullard said:

Not typically, no.

11 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

Use your tractors, damnit!

 

Obviously not familiar with the maneuver "Gorn Anchor"

 

 

[archer]

15 minutes ago, Spence said:

 

Obviously not familiar with the maneuver "Gorn Anchor"

 

 

 

Obviously not familiar with the definition of "typically".

 

   

 

One of the Star Trek books, the non-bridge crew heroes were stranded on an over-powered towing ship which technically didn't have any weapons. The bad guys had hijacked the Enterprise and were about to escape.

 

They grabbed one of the warp nacelles of the Enterprise with one tractor beam and grabbed onto the planet with the other. And let the Enterprise twist it's own warp nacelle sideways as it tried to leave.

 

Of course they had to later explain their actions to Captain Kirk, and worse to Scotty. But still better than letting the bad guys get away.

 

I've always thought that was a real RPG maneuver which you rarely see written up in fiction.

[cbullard]

3 hours ago, archer said:

I'd note that the STR table for Champions Complete estimates that you'd need 70 STR just to lift a large starship.

 

There might not be gravity in space but starships are still really massive. Most ships aren't going to be able to just casually tow a starship along behind it as if that starship is (for lack of a better word) weightless.

I agree, you need to be able to move that much mass, which in a 1G gravity well is the same as weight.  Of course, that applies no matter what method you're using.

And honestly, to me that makes perfect sense.  To me, no matter what form your "tractor beam" takes, your ship's engines should have to be able to carry that load.  It would completely blow my suspension of disbelief to see an X-Wing or the Millenium Falcon towing a Cruiser, for example.

3 hours ago, Spence said:

 

Obviously not familiar with the maneuver "Gorn Anchor"

 

 

Gorn Anchor?  No, I've never heard of it.  What is that, please?

[Spence]

3 hours ago, cbullard said:

I agree, you need to be able to move that much mass, which in a 1G gravity well is the same as weight.  Of course, that applies no matter what method you're using.

And honestly, to me that makes perfect sense.  To me, no matter what form your "tractor beam" takes, your ship's engines should have to be able to carry that load.  It would completely blow my suspension of disbelief to see an X-Wing or the Millenium Falcon towing a Cruiser, for example.

Gorn Anchor?  No, I've never heard of it.  What is that, please?

 

Well to explain I need to fill in some background info.  Now this is with a very broad brush and not intended to cover everything.  We all know original Star Trek ran three seasons in the 60’s and then basically disappeared.  It would run on syndicated TV, but was mostly forgotten.  Gaming was a very very niche hobby, ignored at best, ridiculed at worst.   In 1979 a company came out with a combat game based on Star Trek ship to ship combat.  The details of their license/rights are another story and will not be covered here beyond that at the time they had creative control to expand things.  The game was called Star Fleet Battles and over the years they identified and then expanded pretty much all the factions of the Star Trek universe with particular details for their fleets.  A lot of care was given to the concept of “form follows function” or each races starships structural designs were due to that races technology and science.  Like all aircraft tend to resemble each other if they have similar tech, all jets in the 50’s tend to look alike and so on.  The fleet lists they built up closely followed the logic of real world navies in that they had small ships like patrol vessels and corvettes up through various cruisers to battleships and dreadnoughts.  Science vessels, scouts and cargo ships plus bases and outposts were all covered as applicable to that “race”. 

 

Key point was “as applicable to that race".  In order to answer that, they had to develop a background for each race or faction.  Federation, Klingon Empire, Tholians, Gorn, Kzinti, Hydrians, Romulans, etc were all built out.  And they were all closely based on the original series and the handful of books at the time.  The SFB Universe timeline runs for hundreds of years and multiple wars.  When Paramount revived Star Trek they did not anticipate the existence of SFB.  There was a legal battle, of which I do not know the details, but the company that owns Star Fleet Battles is still there and they cannot use the term Star Trek and except for a handful of Starships in the original show, Paramount wasn’t able to use any of SFB’s ship designs beyond general shapes.  In the original Trek universe (TOS and early books) Klingons were a the descendants of a slave race that were their masters security and slave overseers that revolted and overthrew the “masters”.  They didn’t destroy the empire, but took over and maintenance control over all the other slave races.   That is why all the earlier Klingon ships designs had all those security stations and separate Klingon quarters and control centers from the rest of the ship.  Their technology wasn’t actually theirs, but appropriated from their previous masters and they were expansionist driven because they needed conquest to maintain power and resources.

 

I suspect that because of all the details and “history” established by the SFB Universe, when Paramount kicked off TNG they were not able to use any of it.  So, we saw radical changes to things. Klingons became a honor based warrior culture with cloaking devices as native tech instead of jealously guarded “loans”.  Most of the logical hull progression could not be used so we see ones that are similar in basic shape.  I think this is why FASA’s Star Trek game came up with so many bizarre designs. Don't get me wrong, while I really like the SFB ships concepts and tech, I also really like a lot of Paramount's Trek such as Klingons.

 

All of this digression leads me to the Gorns.

 

In SFB the Gorns are one of the powers.  They are not fast or nimble, but they make up any lack of finesse by being big and very very tough.  No starship wants to get within grips of a hostile Gorn warship.  In SFB, a ship that is tractored cannot launch missiles or small craft, but it can fire weapons with only restriction being they may only fire at the tractoring ship.  SFB is also a game that hinges on power management and you only have so much power to go around.  Since Gorns are slow and ponderous, a common tactic by other races is to make fast passes and wear them down from range.  Enter the “Gorn Anchor”.  As the enemy vessel makes its pass, a Gorn ships will divert all power to facing Shields, the Tractor Beam and Drives.  Lunge out and slap a tractor on the passing ship.  Once locked on, the Gorn then reverses drives and drags the target to a slow crawl while hunkered down behind its usually large reinforced shields.  This of course allows the other Gorn ships to waddle up and pound the former starship into scrap in short order.  Rinse, Repeat.   When a Gorn squadron or flotilla turtles up, it is very expensive proposition to try and engage them. Not to mention if you get too close you suddenly find yourself snared and shortly thereafter a cloud of expanding gas and debris.

 

The SFU has it's own RPG, several wargames and a really interesting history. 

[cbullard]

9 minutes ago, Spence said:

In SFB the Gorns are one of the powers.  They are not fast or nimble, but they make up any lack of finesse by being big and very very tough.  No starship wants to get within grips of a hostile Gorn warship.  In SFB, a ship that is tractored cannot launch missiles or small craft, but it can fire weapons with only restriction being they may only fire at the tractoring ship.  SFB is also a game that hinges on power management and you only have so much power to go around.  Since Gorns are slow and ponderous, a common tactic by other races is to make fast passes and wear them down from range.  Enter the “Gorn Anchor”.  As the enemy vessel makes its pass, a Gorn ships will divert all power to facing Shields, the Tractor Beam and Drives.  Lunge out and slap a tractor on the passing ship.  Once locked on, the Gorn then reverses drives and drags the target to a slow crawl while hunkered down behind its usually large reinforced shields.  This of course allows the other Gorn ships to waddle up and pound the former starship into scrap in short order.  Rinse, Repeat.   When a Gorn squadron or flotilla turtles up, it is very expensive proposition to try and engage them. Not to mention if you get too close you suddenly find yourself snared and shortly thereafter a cloud of expanding gas and debris.

 

The SFU has it's own RPG, several wargames and a really interesting history. 

Oh, yes, I used to be massively hooked on SFB, although I haven't played it in ages.  As I recall, they really did the Gorns a disservice with their weaker plasma torpedoes.

I thought there was a severe restriction on the speed of the objects you could attach a tractor beam to?  Is my brain making stuff up again?

And yeah, I can understand the tractored ship not being able to fire drones or launch shuttles/fighters.  I can even see where they might WANT to fire all their energy weapons at the tractoring ship, but I don't see any reason why they should HAVE to do so.

Hmmm... my old SFB set is still sitting right there on my shelf.  Maybe I should dig it out again, and at least go through some of the solo scenarios...

[Spence]

24 minutes ago, cbullard said:

Oh, yes, I used to be massively hooked on SFB, although I haven't played it in ages.  As I recall, they really did the Gorns a disservice with their weaker plasma torpedoes.

I thought there was a severe restriction on the speed of the objects you could attach a tractor beam to?  Is my brain making stuff up again?

And yeah, I can understand the tractored ship not being able to fire drones or launch shuttles/fighters.  I can even see where they might WANT to fire all their energy weapons at the tractoring ship, but I don't see any reason why they should HAVE to do so.

Hmmm... my old SFB set is still sitting right there on my shelf.  Maybe I should dig it out again, and at least go through some of the solo scenarios...

 

Heck, if I knew you had played SFB, I wouldn't typed so much.

 

There are speed restrictions on how much of a difference can be overcome, its been years but I believe the ships cannot have a calculated speed of greater than 15 (16?).  But there is a practical limit on how fast a ship can go and still be able to raise shields, maintain ships systems and generate effective weapons fire.   

 

Sorry about that, I must have been unclear.  They never have to fire, but if they want to they can only fire on the vessel tractoring them. 

 

And I agree about the Gorn plasma.  But then imagine how much more nasty a Gorn heavy would be if it had type R's

[cbullard]

16 hours ago, Spence said:

 

But there is a practical limit on how fast a ship can go and still be able to raise shields, maintain ships systems and generate effective weapons fire.  

 

Sorry about that, I must have been unclear.  They never have to fire, but if they want to they can only fire on the vessel tractoring them. 

 

And I agree about the Gorn plasma.  But then imagine how much more nasty a Gorn heavy would be if it had type R's

Yeah, off the top of my head I don't recall any of the ships that could go Spd 31, shields at full, all weapons charged, etc.

And no, I knew they didn't have to fire, I just didn't remember that they were only able to fire on the tractoring ship.  For energy weapons, that doesn't make sense to me,  Either that, or you should also be able to fire drones/launch shuttles/etc towards them.

A Gorn CA with Type R's?  No thank you!!!

[Spence]

44 minutes ago, cbullard said:

And no, I knew they didn't have to fire, I just didn't remember that they were only able to fire on the tractoring ship.  For energy weapons, that doesn't make sense to me,  Either that, or you should also be able to fire drones/launch shuttles/etc towards them.

 

Arrghhhh.... you made me look....

 

It is even a bit more complicated. 

 

Essentially here it is:

if a ship is tractored by another ship that is larger than it is, it can only fire at that ship if it wishes to fire.

if a ship is tractored by another ship that is equal in size or smaller their fire is not restricted to that ship.

if a ship is tractored by another ship that is a friendly ship their fire is not restricted to that ship.

While tractored a ship many only use directed energy weapons, not torpedoes, drones or launch/recover small craft.

 

As clear as mud as far as a reason.

 

[cbullard]

3 hours ago, Spence said:

 

Arrghhhh.... you made me look....

 

It is even a bit more complicated. 

 

Essentially here it is:

if a ship is tractored by another ship that is larger than it is, it can only fire at that ship if it wishes to fire.

if a ship is tractored by another ship that is equal in size or smaller their fire is not restricted to that ship.

if a ship is tractored by another ship that is a friendly ship their fire is not restricted to that ship.

While tractored a ship many only use directed energy weapons, not torpedoes, drones or launch/recover small craft.

 

As clear as mud as far as a reason.

 

Huh... yeah, I agree -- clear as mud.  Oh, well.