Resistant to being teleported and resistant to transdimensional powers

[unclevlad]

Damage Negation is "subtract 1 DC from the attack" because damage negation happens at the point of delivery, whereas active cost includes other factors at times, like reduced END or Indirect.  With things like UAAs, I'd also rather NOT include the UAA points.  MegaScale's cost?  Yeah, I can see that.  BUT, I think the problem is pretty obvious:  what counts, what doesn't?  The system already has issues with this, on a few levels.

 

1.  For some powers with extensive options, which if any modify the base power (and therefore the power's range), and which don't (IOW, they act like adders)?  One example is Change Environment.

 

2.  The notion of active cost has at least 2 subsidiary aspects:  "active cost" for END purposes, and for determining the cost of a full DC for this power.  The first is relatively straightforward, in that it's "everything but Reduced END";  the second is much more complex, and might even have multiple answers (for Damage over TIme or Constant damage powers).  Very little of this is formalized.

 

It's useful to also look at Dispel.  There's a question that Dispel addresses.  Dispel is all or nothing;  if the Dispel effect rolled doesn't match or exceed the points in the power to be dispelled, then nothing happens.  For this application of "effect negation"...is it all or nothing, or scaling?  Then...what if the power being negated isn't scaling, like XDM? 

 

So there are issues to iron out.  Then there's LoneWolf's argument:  the defense is defined by the attacker, and therefore the defender has no say.  As I said before, I think this can't be completely open-ended.  Affects Desolid is an example here.  Desolid allows the power to define certain things that will affect it;  but the +1/2 level of Affects Desolid says it works against any.  

 

3 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

You make it a universal exotic defense and everyone will buy it.  Doing so would eliminate the exotic attacks because they are now easy to stop.   Most exotic attacks are expensive and often less effective than the same number of points in basic attack.  The reason people are willing to pay the points for them is because they are difficult to defend against.   The Idea of a universal defense is a bad idea and should not be even considered.   

 

Right but that means we don't make it universal, they should be more narrow.  And yeah, there is a conflict here, when players can freely min-max aspects like this.  

 

One thing to do is, these should be Special Powers...therefore, if you want them, you're paying permanent points, this can't come out of a VPP or a piecemeal multipower.  Then, if it's built like, say, 2 points for 1d6 of active point suppression against a narrowly defined effect or possibly class of effects that do NOT do damage...this won't be automatic at all, especially if the suppression aspect is All or Nothing.  There's still issues...what does apply, what doesn't?  But something like 10" teleport with +1 MegaScale (teleport to my hidden lair elsewhere in the city, HAH!) is 20 points of intensity, and therefore 20 points to suppress.  That's 6 dice for a 50-50 shot against THIS UAA Teleport.

 

Plus, the goal here as I see it, is to try to define a power vs. power comparison, when the effect itself is Yes/No.

[Ninja-Bear]

Hmmm 🤔 and we wonder why Hero System has a reputation of being complicated.

[unclevlad]

48 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Hmmm 🤔 and we wonder why Hero System has a reputation of being complicated.

 

Because it is.  It tries to let anyone do anything.  It can't NOT be complicated.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Eh, its not any more complicated in terms of complexity and things to know than D&D.  Its just Hero has the stuff showing behind the scenes, so you can tweak it specifically.  You don't have to, you can just go with what's there and not worry about it, but if you want to, you can open the hood and tweak the fuel injectors.

 

Magic Missile never misses!  Except if you have this item.  Or that feat.  Or are of this level of magic resistance.  Its complicated, just hidden behind the scenes, because there's no rules or principles for why and how things work open to build with yourself.  In a way, that's even more complex because what criteria must something have to be able to dodge magic missiles?  Whatever you want, unless the GM says no.

[unclevlad]

DD has never tried to be anything but a collection of one-off, individual rules, particularly with the magic system.  While there were some broad general rules, each spell largely was a rule unto itself.  Same with item effects.  But each was 100% explicit.  One of the issues in Hero is, that doesn't necessarily hold.  The major systemic argument is the balance between Special Effects Matter Most! and Mechanics Matter Most!.  We're seeing that a bit here, with the assertion that you can't have a general defense against Teleport UAA because the defense is defined with the power.  

 

The other issue is what sorts of advantages/limitations make sense, and how should they be combined?  For example, Damage Over Time, and Defense Only Applies Once.  And the issue that when the base cost is dirt-cheap, the cost of advantages largely becomes moot.  

 

Sometimes it's ill-considered definitions.  My pet peeve here is Time Limit.  It's "duration override" because the rule says "create an effect that lasts for a defined period of time."  And then it overrides any other termination conditions like Nonpersistent.  So it doesn't cover cases such as instant-use abilities like STR or an HA, such that the power can be available for use only for a period of time.  So that means you can do +10 to any specified Characteristic for 1 hour, and you get a -3/4 limitation.  Oh, EXCEPT for STR because STR has a connected END cost *some of the time*.  

 

D&D's complexity is that there are few if any large-scale rules;  every rule, by and large, is a singleton object.  Hero's major complexity is mostly due to what my old boss called Chinese Menu complexity...take one from Column A, one from Column B, 2 picks from Column C, etc. etc.  That in itself is complex.  That also creates interactions that need to be addressed.  And there are others, some of which I've mentioned.  Now, granted:  Hero's *eminently* playable by avoiding the messiest bits, which isn't that hard to do.  And D&D can't be simplified much...and it's always had the problem that since it's a collection of singleton rules, its complexity only increases over time.  (3.5 D&D started suffering from the Chinese Menu problem as more and more splatbooks came out, and from the "oh man look at what this combination does!" due to that.)

[Ninja-Bear]

12 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Because it is.  It tries to let anyone do anything.  It can't NOT be complicated.

Yes but now we come to conundrum . People are complying the rules are being to big and bulky because Hero is trying to quantify everything. Yet if something isn’t specifically called out, as in Dimensional Resistance, then we seem to have a bulky rules write up to cover it. And no, we really do not need it complicated. All we need, as @Hugh Neilson pointed out, are a reasonable GM and a reasonable Player.

[Hugh Neilson]

21 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The Steven Brust novel are not a good example because they are all using the same special effect when they teleport.  In that series the only way to teleport is by using sorcery, which is done by drawing on the imperial orb.  Since the special effect is the same the defense will also be the same.  In the series teleport blocks are accomplished the same way by a spell to block teleporting.  The spell in the series would be written up as a barrier with affects teleport, but that does not exactly conform to the rules which is a common occurrence when trying to use a literary source as an example.  In the series there is no defense that a person can have that simply possessing it will prevent teleportation. 

 

I think they are a great example, but only of a game where Teleport, UAA is commonplace, with a single special effect.  Every game is different.  In a game set in this universe, Teleport would generally be UAA and likely no defense would be permitted to be purchased.  Unless, later in game, such a defense becomes a plot point.  Now, we might also have a very simplistic 1 Smell Flash Defense Invisible Barrier, No Range, Mobile, prevents T-Port, creating a very inexpensive Teleport blocker.  Now, Teleport UAA is part of the campaign, but PCs and notable NPCs are likely immune.  It depends on how we want UAA Teleport to work in-game.

 

8 hours ago, unclevlad said:

DD has never tried to be anything but a collection of one-off, individual rules, particularly with the magic system.  While there were some broad general rules, each spell largely was a rule unto itself.  Same with item effects.  But each was 100% explicit.  One of the issues in Hero is, that doesn't necessarily hold.  The major systemic argument is the balance between Special Effects Matter Most! and Mechanics Matter Most!.  We're seeing that a bit here, with the assertion that you can't have a general defense against Teleport UAA because the defense is defined with the power. 

 

And yet, as Christopher R. Taylor often points out, we have very generic Power Defense.  Over the years, Flash Defense got broken down into sense groups, but Sight Flash Defense still works against bright flashes, webbing covering one's eyes and tear gas (unless, of course, we build them differently, say a limited Entangle that blocks sight and tear gas as Sight Flash, AVAD - smell Flash Defense).

 

We also accept a single defense which prevents being burned, frozen, electrocuted, irradiated, etc.  Again, unless the attack is purchased differently. 

 

But clearly a single defense which prevents the target being teleported addresses an issue so common and central to most games that we have to make it more granular.  🙄

 

8 hours ago, unclevlad said:

D&D's complexity is that there are few if any large-scale rules;  every rule, by and large, is a singleton object.  Hero's major complexity is mostly due to what my old boss called Chinese Menu complexity...take one from Column A, one from Column B, 2 picks from Column C, etc. etc.  That in itself is complex.  That also creates interactions that need to be addressed.  And there are others, some of which I've mentioned.  Now, granted:  Hero's *eminently* playable by avoiding the messiest bits, which isn't that hard to do.  And D&D can't be simplified much...and it's always had the problem that since it's a collection of singleton rules, its complexity only increases over time.  (3.5 D&D started suffering from the Chinese Menu problem as more and more splatbooks came out, and from the "oh man look at what this combination does!" due to that.)

 

Hero at least acknowledges the issue by placing GM oversight at the forefront.  Try banning this spell, that feat or some bizarre race in D&D or Pathfinder and watch the fireworks. 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Fwiw depending on edition Magic Missile IS NOT an instant hit.

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Try banning this spell, that feat or some bizarre race in D&D or Pathfinder and watch the fireworks. 

 

I believe as with any other game, Hero Included, this is group dependent.