Lifeboats !?

[Utensil]

Noticed in Ultimate Vehicle page 65 that Cruise Ships buy Lifeboats as Vehicles

Vehicles buying Vehicles ... so really character only paying 1/25th the cost is that correct?

 

It would seem it be reasonable for vehicle to buy another vehicle at inflated prices like 1 for 1 for other vehicles, with +25 points to double number of vehicles.

 

Sorry if I posting something that may have be posted before, just a quick search was not coming up with anything.

[SCUBA Hero]

Well... +5 points for each doubling of vehicles.

 

I don't have access to Ultimate Vehicle atm, so I don't remember if the first Lifeboat is bought at cost/5 or as the first +5 doubling.  IIRC, RAW allows the second method.

[unclevlad]

But also figure the value of life boats in the overall scheme.  A life boat is not like keeping, say, a swamp boat on the ship to go places the full-sized boat can't.  I'd argue that life boats adding to the cost of the ship at all, is being rather nit-picky.  

[Utensil]

Just making sure LOL

I suppose "Use Only In Case Of Emergency" -4 limitation gives same cost as vehicle buying other vehicles!!

Edited April 27, 2022 by Utensil
add something funny

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

A life boat is not like keeping, say, a swamp boat on the ship to go places the full-sized boat can't.  I'd argue that life boats adding to the cost of the ship at all, is being rather nit-picky.  

 

 

Don't be too hasty, UV! 

 

if you have been following the partial invisibilty thread, you know that the fact that the character _could_ have an advantage over somone without lifeboats-  being able to use the lifeboat in water too shallow foe the ship;  being able to set a lifeboat on fire ans cast it adrift; being able,to stay dry when the ship sinks--

 

All of these _could possibly maybe happen eventually once_, prociding a singular narrow opportunity for a clever player to possibly gain an advantage over someone without a lifeboat, maybe, and therefore- because of the timeline in which it might be useful once or twice, lifeboats should be no less than a five-point adder.

 

each.

 

 

 

seriously though: if it has zero utility beyond death postponement or plot advancement, I find the idea of charging for them at all to be a bit repellant.  1/25 "normal cost" is quite agreeable, I think.

 

I mean "you get what you pay for" is fine, but why does one guy have to pay just to advance the plot?  And if you bought it and it never got used, did you get robbed?  Is the GM somehow depriving you of your lifeboat points unless he arranges to sink your ship?

 

current trends of "get what you pay for" and "it is wrong to charge for something that isn't going to come up"  and "if the player buys it, then he expects to get some utility out of it" all suggest that buying a lifeboat will absolutely condemn your ship. 

 

are you the GM?  If so, just give them some lifeboats (if they want them).  They will have them for if they need them, and they won't get all huffy about that one or two twenty-fifths of a point that they had tied up the entire campaign if they don't have to use them. 

 

Besides- if they are available for free, they become plot devices and a means to guide or provide for your players.  They didn't investigate the spooky cave in the cove- the one where the clearly-labeled Mcguffin is?  "Oh no!  The storm surge is too strong for the little outboard motor!  You are being washed into the rocks!  Wait?  Is that....  Some,sort of cave, there in the back of the cover?!  The next swell throws youe craft up, up-  and then you plummet, stomach turning flips at the dizzying rate of descent!  Then another!  It shoves your little lifeboat with a furious purpose- straight toward the Cove...!"

 

a bit railroad-y, at least that example, but I am sure you can see the point.

 

as to the 'actual advantage"-   well, when the boat goes down, they wont die at sea bevause they spent 1/25 of a point...,

 

Now remember that Dragon Magazine back in the 80s published (uh...  Okay, look: I am,sixty-two, and sometimes I fail to recognize that it just might not be possible foe the guy I am talking to "remember" the 80s _at all_.  Sorry if I have assumed something)

 

Anyway, Dragon published a list of unofficial proposed powers (which a lot od us used to build dun and completely forgettable characters like Rubber Ball Boy!, etc. 

 

One of those powers was Extra Life.  It cost one point,  just one.  I mentioned once on the old Red Octiber board (and later on the 4e version of this board) that I still lwt Players buy that one now and again.

 

I cannot over-describe the amount of outrage I took for that-  between the "the point is gone forever!" complaints to "Oh no!  The character is dead-dead-dead!" complaints to "I have no problem with this, but it should cost fifty points and one Player kidney, bevause it is so valuable!"  complaints.

 

The short version is that one point was just nowhere near enough to charge for "oops!  I didn't die!,"  but here, in the vehicle rules, 1/25 of a point for the same,thing is completely fine.  I would like to point out that it is effectively a full point: you cant even get a Pip of STUN for 24/25 of a point these days.  

 

Even shorter version?  Do what feels right for you and your GM (or players).  Don't get vaught up in the everything has to be paid foe because it has real or potential value or because it is not like the other guy's, so maybe you're guy has a diggerent way to do it that might work better, in some way I absolutely have not been able,to fathom after a week of deep thought on the subject."  Just dont get caught up in that.

 

Because as soon as you do, you start comparing things, and noticing how wildly, in spite of the claims of balance, actual in-game utility varies from build to build, and how much the prices vary when the utility is the same.  Pay 1/25 of a point to not drown qhen the boat goes down, or pay one point to not drown when the boat goes down, or use that ridiculously arcane Duplication / resurrection thing for whatever it costs in various editions.

 

Just have fun, and if you don't see any real in-game vakue for something, don't charge for it.  If you do charge, but it never gets used, even once, dont tell anybody, because apparently that's wrong, too.

 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

It really depends on how the lifeboat is built.   If all it does is float and prevent people from drowning it probably should not cost much if anything.  If on the other hand the lifeboat is more useful than that I can see it costing some points.  

 

So, if your lifeboat is an inflatable rubber raft, I probably would not charge anything.  If the lifeboat is motorized boat with a navigation system built in it should cost some points.  Another example of a “lifeboat” that should cost would be the shuttles from star trek.  For lifeboats that cost paying 1/25th of the cost seems fair.
 

[Utensil]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Anyway, Dragon published a list of unofficial proposed powers (which a lot of us used to build dun and completely forgettable characters like Rubber Ball Boy!, etc. 

 

One of those powers was Extra Life.  It cost one point,  just one.  I mentioned once on the old Red Octiber board (and later on the 4e version of this board) that I still lwt Players buy that one now and again.

 

I remember that Dragon Issue for Extra Life, it cost 4 points ... the 100th issue for the Dragon Magazine, month of August 1985. My favorite Powers from that issue was Knockout and Vertigo. I am 60 years old.

[Duke Bushido]

I have no idea why,  but our group at that time,became _obsessed_ with Bouncing.....

 

 

Yeah....  I am not proud of everything I have ever done.  😆

 

Though I think my next character is going to be a Transformer!  Maybe a lifeboat!

 

(What is five hundred time 25?)

 

 

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

19 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Don't be too hasty, UV! 

 

if you have been following the partial invisibilty thread, you know that the fact that the character _could_ have an advantage over somone without lifeboats-  being able to use the lifeboat in water too shallow foe the ship;  being able to set a lifeboat on fire ans cast it adrift; being able,to stay dry when the ship sinks--

 

All of these _could possibly maybe happen eventually once_, prociding a singular narrow opportunity for a clever player to possibly gain an advantage over someone without a lifeboat, maybe, and therefore- because of the timeline in which it might be useful once or twice, lifeboats should be no less than a five-point adder.

 

each.

 

 

 

seriously though: if it has zero utility beyond death postponement or plot advancement, I find the idea of charging for them at all to be a bit repellant.  1/25 "normal cost" is quite agreeable, I think.

 

I mean "you get what you pay for" is fine, but why does one guy have to pay just to advance the plot?  And if you bought it and it never got used, did you get robbed?  Is the GM somehow depriving you of your lifeboat points unless he arranges to sink your ship?

 

current trends of "get what you pay for" and "it is wrong to charge for something that isn't going to come up"  and "if the player buys it, then he expects to get some utility out of it" all suggest that buying a lifeboat will absolutely condemn your ship. 

 

are you the GM?  If so, just give them some lifeboats (if they want them).  They will have them for if they need them, and they won't get all huffy about that one or two twenty-fifths of a point that they had tied up the entire campaign if they don't have to use them. 

 

Besides- if they are available for free, they become plot devices and a means to guide or provide for your players.  They didn't investigate the spooky cave in the cove- the one where the clearly-labeled Mcguffin is?  "Oh no!  The storm surge is too strong for the little outboard motor!  You are being washed into the rocks!  Wait?  Is that....  Some,sort of cave, there in the back of the cover?!  The next swell throws youe craft up, up-  and then you plummet, stomach turning flips at the dizzying rate of descent!  Then another!  It shoves your little lifeboat with a furious purpose- straight toward the Cove...!"

 

a bit railroad-y, at least that example, but I am sure you can see the point.

 

as to the 'actual advantage"-   well, when the boat goes down, they wont die at sea bevause they spent 1/25 of a point...,

 

Now remember that Dragon Magazine back in the 80s published (uh...  Okay, look: I am,sixty-two, and sometimes I fail to recognize that it just might not be possible foe the guy I am talking to "remember" the 80s _at all_.  Sorry if I have assumed something)

 

Anyway, Dragon published a list of unofficial proposed powers (which a lot od us used to build dun and completely forgettable characters like Rubber Ball Boy!, etc. 

 

One of those powers was Extra Life.  It cost one point,  just one.  I mentioned once on the old Red Octiber board (and later on the 4e version of this board) that I still lwt Players buy that one now and again.

 

I cannot over-describe the amount of outrage I took for that-  between the "the point is gone forever!" complaints to "Oh no!  The character is dead-dead-dead!" complaints to "I have no problem with this, but it should cost fifty points and one Player kidney, bevause it is so valuable!"  complaints.

 

The short version is that one point was just nowhere near enough to charge for "oops!  I didn't die!,"  but here, in the vehicle rules, 1/25 of a point for the same,thing is completely fine.  I would like to point out that it is effectively a full point: you cant even get a Pip of STUN for 24/25 of a point these days.  

 

Even shorter version?  Do what feels right for you and your GM (or players).  Don't get vaught up in the everything has to be paid foe because it has real or potential value or because it is not like the other guy's, so maybe you're guy has a diggerent way to do it that might work better, in some way I absolutely have not been able,to fathom after a week of deep thought on the subject."  Just dont get caught up in that.

 

Because as soon as you do, you start comparing things, and noticing how wildly, in spite of the claims of balance, actual in-game utility varies from build to build, and how much the prices vary when the utility is the same.  Pay 1/25 of a point to not drown when the boat goes down, or pay one point to not drown when the boat goes down, or use that ridiculously arcane Duplication / resurrection thing for whatever it costs in various editions.

 

Just have fun, and if you don't see any real in-game value for something, don't charge for it.  If you do charge, but it never gets used, even once, dont tell anybody, because apparently that's wrong, too.

 

 

 

HERE HERE! 

[unclevlad]

17 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

If the lifeboat is motorized boat with a navigation system built in it should cost some points.  Another example of a “lifeboat” that should cost would be the shuttles from star trek.  For lifeboats that cost paying 1/25th of the cost seems fair.
 

 

Those are NOT lifeboats.  They're small craft capable of significant independent action...and were, in ST, on several occasions.  There's a potentially tricky issue of where to draw the line...a basic rowboat was the lifeboat in the days of sail, and yeah, OK, it was used to make landings because the ship itself had too much draft.  

 

Huh.  That might be the line.  You don't notionally use a lifeboat and the main ship at the same time...the boats get used only when the ship's highly compromised.  If you can use the boat/shuttle and the ship fully, at the same time, then the boat should cost points.  

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Those are NOT lifeboats.  They're small craft capable of significant independent action...and were, in ST, on several occasions. 

 

 

Right!

 

But you know what they _can't_ do?

 

Go down to the planetary surface to save Sulu from freezing death while Scotty tries to solve the transporter malfunction.

 

They absolutely _cannot_ do that.

 

Ever.

 

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

39 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Right!

 

But you know what they _can't_ do?

 

Go down to the planetary surface to save Sulu from freezing death while Scotty tries to solve the transporter malfunction.

 

They absolutely _cannot_ do that.

 

Ever.

 

 

 

 

 

Heh.  I wonder here.

That was season 1, episode 4.  Yeah...THAT early.  When I saw that, I was wondering when shuttles were first used.  It's possible that it simply didn't exist at that point.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttlecraft_(Star_Trek)#:~:text=The shuttlecraft%2C named for Galileo,carries a crew of seven.

 

So...maybe, for once, the writers weren't the blithering idiots.

[Scott Ruggels]

Many lifeboats were made as independent watercraft with a sail, a bin of cracker rations, a fishing kit, a water cask, a compass, two pair of oars, and a tarp. This is different from a whaleboat which is just the boat with oars. It can be used as an expedient lifeboat, but lacks navigation and sustainment items. 
 

Recently, especially for commercial vessels, the lifeboats are powered, weather resistant, enclosed, fiberglass, boats, gravity launched from the ship to give them a kick away to get clearance. They have navigation and radio. All lifeboats have to be inspected, and restocked if need be. The USCG takes a dim view of unmaintained lifeboats. 
 

Paying 1/25th points seems fair for a limited use craft used to leave a bad situation, or a damaged and unrecoverable ship.