Alternatives to OCV/DCV Modifications at High Power Levels

[unclevlad]

Plus, who's to say exactly WHAT the concept is....other than the player that built it?  To be sure, if there are very much atypical aspects, then the GM may be well advised to inquire why...if it matters to him.

 

Really, it isn't so much a problem with high-end Hero, as it's a problem with high end in many systems.  It's also endemic when you get to *build* to high levels from the get-go...rather than start at more moderate levels.  If I start at 800, then I'm going to have something VERY!!!! different than if I start at 500, and add 300 over the course of a year.

 

And, note that if the game's attacks are moving into the, say, 16-18 DC range, you're looking at 70 STUN coming down the line for a basic attack.  If you only have 30 DEF...no DR, no negation...then if you get hit with something like that?  40 STUN.  First time you're stunned, bad enough.  Second time, plausibly stunned and knocked out...or, you took a phase to recover from being stunned, then another phase to recover, from the first.  BORING.  Resistant defense?  Same thing.  5d6 killing can be 20 BODY quite easily...in fact, 20+ will happen almost 1/3 of the time.  Considering that...how much resistant do YOU want to have?

[Jason Reid]

2 hours ago, dmjalund said:

then this is a really big flaw in the game, and i would rather play something else if this is the only way to play high power Champions

I think it's more a flaw in the concept of using "games" as a platform to explore stories & concepts. The fact that the underpinnings are a "game" means that it's naturally going to favor certain explorations over others.

 

I can't think of any RPG where one player would consistently have the "combat spotlight equivalent" of 12 SPD while the rest of the party would be content to live with 5 or 6 SPD. Most of them try to enforce that every player gets equal spotlight (e.g. "everybody gets 3 actions per round of combat"). Champions gives you the option of a wider distribution, but the fact that everyone wants to "play" means that in practice you're rarely going to see one.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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I am not sure I follow.  Are you saying that if I buy high defences, or high SPD, or high STR for my character that it invalidates certain concepts?

 

Absolutely.  Batman is fast but he doesn't have 12 SPD and 40 STR.  If i want to play a somewhat slow but very tough hero, that's not possible in this sort of campaign.  Or a mentalist who isn't super fast but projects her mind into a psychic construct at areas to fight through.  There are hundreds of possibilities, all of which are impossible in a campaign that requires enormous physical stats.  Many concepts are simply impossible.

[Doc Democracy]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Absolutely.  Batman is fast but he doesn't have 12 SPD and 40 STR.  If i want to play a somewhat slow but very tough hero, that's not possible in this sort of campaign.  Or a mentalist who isn't super fast but projects her mind into a psychic construct at areas to fight through.  There are hundreds of possibilities, all of which are impossible in a campaign that requires enormous physical stats.  Many concepts are simply impossible.

 

That is true, if you are applying a direct relationship between the system mechanics and how they appear in the game world.  The rules suggest we don't do that.  40 STR is a game mechanic, it's special effect need not be so prosaic.

 

A classic batman scene from Dark Knight is a thug waking up to find Batman had carried him to the top of a building, trussed him up and dangled him head down to wake up.

 

30 or 40 STR allows that, even while not suggesting Batman can deadlift over a tonne.

 

Jumping into the middle of a bunch of things, taking them down while not seeming to take a hit could be the effects of 12 SPD, though they do not need to.

 

I don't think high level play, and point buy of this kind exclude certain concepts but Batman plays differently in Detective Comics than in JLA.

[unclevlad]

9 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

That is true, if you are applying a direct relationship between the system mechanics and how they appear in the game world.  The rules suggest we don't do that.  40 STR is a game mechanic, it's special effect need not be so prosaic.

 

A classic batman scene from Dark Knight is a thug waking up to find Batman had carried him to the top of a building, trussed him up and dangled him head down to wake up.

 

30 or 40 STR allows that, even while not suggesting Batman can deadlift over a tonne.

 

 

STR has a real-world, specific effect...30 STR does let someone deadlift 1.6 tons.  The translation from STR numbers to damage...that's a game mechanic.  But just dismissing the lift chart as "special effect" is a bit much for me.

 

No, the real issue is that comics writers don't care about rules, system, or even consistency within their own contexts.  Some forms of Batman have 500-1000 points of hand-wave applied, compared to what the baseline description would appear to be.  Quite honestly?  Batman does not, and has NEVER, belonged in JLA combat...but Batman can't be sidelined because...he is Batman.  Hand wave, so the writers can give the fans what they want. 

 

One of the things to recognize is that "points is points" is FALSE.  Certain build structures are simply MUCH more expensive than others, and that doesn't always translate to powerful, especially in a combat sense.  This is much worse in 5E than in 6E, due to figured characteristics, but even in 6E, there are simply more ways to combine things, without resorting to dubious measures, with a brick than with, say, a blaster.  The typical brick is the least versatile concept out there, sure...but they're really, really good at what they do.  The cosmic power pool build may be versatile as heck...but isn't built for direct confrontations.  Nor is the mentalist.  

 

We also have to remember that the comics and movies fundamentally use continuous action, and phased combat is a massive, massive shift.  The goons get to counterattack, and that's very tough to prevent.  The goons won't always miss;  even a 6 OCV will hit an 11 DCV on a 6-, which is 10% of the time.  It'll happen in-game;  it never happens in comics or movies.  Star Wars has some of the most blatant examples of this.  Han and Chewie *never* get hit, despite dozens, if not hundreds, of shots aimed at them.  They don't necessarily hit *all* the time...but they always drop the storm troopers they do hit.  Because comic and movie combat is NOT quantitative.  Hero is quantitative.

 

I'd also suggest that Hero's base system does not scale that well...which isn't surprising.  Few systems do, much less systems that are as complex as Hero.  Specialized attacks targeting alternate defenses become hard to ignore...especially given the *terrible* Transform rules.  (The reference standard Transform power is, IMO, D&D Flesh to Stone or Polymorph Other...and that's as non-quantitative as can be.)  Drains can also be rather nasty.  So...?  If we strive for something close to balance, these are generally not powerful enough to be a real problem in a typical 500 point game.  In a higher power game?  Different story.  Sooo...if you leave significant holes in your defense, you seriously risk being taken out for *extended* periods.  If you want to do an NND?  It better be against something exotic, because the more common stuff *has to be* covered.  With basic attacks?  The STUN damage is the huge concern.  It's growing too fast.

 

Perhaps the first adjustment is to rescale the *lower* levels.  Goons have SPD 3-4;  goon leaders may have 5's.  Now the heroes can have 8 SPDs and still have the major advantage in the action economy.  It might be interesting to shorten the combat turn...10 phases per turn, instead of 12?  This would help magnify the difference between a 7 SPD and a 4 SPD.  Implement a house rule that most goons' gear simply isn't up to dealing with high-power attacks.  Rather than scaling up the attack...how about a house rule that the DEF of goon- or civilian-level armor is halved versus the STUN of that attack?  So you don't need to make those attacks overly powerful, while giving the goons the kinds of armor that make life difficult for civilian response, or even lesser heroes.  For things like blasting through obstacles, particularly out of combat...let the high-power character focus...and make his attack AP.  Spend the END, sure, but it's a free trick.

How about a SPD-like characteristic?  In RAW, once you've executed a terminating action like attacking, you're 'frozen' until your next turn...you can't even abort.  Buying this would let you reset to a greater or lesser degree, X times per turn...you buy how many times you can do this.  This might be done as:

 

--your action was no longer terminating...it's as if the phase changed to the next phase.  At its most basic, you're allowed to blow your next phase to execute a defensive action.

--for something more powerful...as above, plus any DCV penalties from your earlier action are erased.  This might well be enough to say you don't have to blow to dodge.

--most powerful...as above, but if you can act in the next phase, you can also execute a half or full move...altho these count against what you could do in the next phase when your initiative comes around.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

21 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

No, the real issue is that comics writers don't care about rules, system, or even consistency within their own contexts.  Some forms of Batman have 500-1000 points of hand-wave applied, compared to what the baseline description would appear to be.  Quite honestly?  Batman does not, and has NEVER, belonged in JLA combat...but Batman can't be sidelined because...he is Batman.  Hand wave, so the writers can give the fans what they want.

 

As I recall, DC Animated Universe Batman had powered gauntlets used to make him credible in JLA combat.  He's a super-rich gadgeteer.  In the early comic JLA, he would fight in the BatPlane when he fought at all.  But he can't be ineffectual in a significant part of the game, or he's no fun for a player. 

 

21 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

We also have to remember that the comics and movies fundamentally use continuous action, and phased combat is a massive, massive shift.  The goons get to counterattack, and that's very tough to prevent.  The goons won't always miss;  even a 6 OCV will hit an 11 DCV on a 6-, which is 10% of the time.  It'll happen in-game;  it never happens in comics or movies.  Star Wars has some of the most blatant examples of this.  Han and Chewie *never* get hit, despite dozens, if not hundreds, of shots aimed at them.  They don't necessarily hit *all* the time...but they always drop the storm troopers they do hit.  Because comic and movie combat is NOT quantitative.  Hero is quantitative.

 

Combat Luck exists to explain why these types of characters appear never to get hit - and to give Supers who lack bulletproof skin access to resistant defenses.  We know that, in the source media, they get shot at all the time.  We know that, in-game, they will get hit on occasion.  Therefore, there must be a mechanic to bridge the gap if we want the game to accurately reflect the source material.   Most attacks miss, and the rare few that hit are deflected by Combat Luck.

 

21 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Perhaps the first adjustment is to rescale the *lower* levels.  Goons have SPD 3-4;  goon leaders may have 5's.  Now the heroes can have 8 SPDs and still have the major advantage in the action economy.  It might be interesting to shorten the combat turn...10 phases per turn, instead of 12?  This would help magnify the difference between a 7 SPD and a 4 SPD.  Implement a house rule that most goons' gear simply isn't up to dealing with high-power attacks.  Rather than scaling up the attack...how about a house rule that the DEF of goon- or civilian-level armor is halved versus the STUN of that attack?  So you don't need to make those attacks overly powerful, while giving the goons the kinds of armor that make life difficult for civilian response, or even lesser heroes.  For things like blasting through obstacles, particularly out of combat...let the high-power character focus...and make his attack AP.  Spend the END, sure, but it's a free trick.

 

What is the point of making characters with vasty greater power if Granny's Purse is now a +8d6 Hand Attack added to her 20 STR, with which she strikes at 12 OCV?  Rather, I would suggest that the agents that were at least something of a threat, en masse, to our 450 point Supers are swept away by our Cosmic 1,000 point Supers.  They are no longer a credible threat, at least not directly. Perhaps they can distract the PCs from something else getting done.  Certainly, they can threaten civilians, and there sure are a lot of them.  Direct combat?  The only challenge is not hospitalizing or disabling them.

 

In fact, maybe we keep the Supers at SPD 5-7 and OCV/DCV 9-11, but agents have SPD 2 and CV 3.  "Standard Supers" have SPD 3-4 and CV 5 - 7.  Scaling down the rest of the world makes the PCs much more powerful at even standard point or stat levels.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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But he can't be ineffectual in a significant part of the game, or he's no fun for a player. 

 

Yeah the JLA/Avengers model of mixing very low powered and high powered characters in a single group does not play out well in an RPG because you don't have the author rigging things to get the low end guys something to do.  Even in the movie, you had to ask what, exactly, Scarlet Witch was accomplishing in the first movie's battle of NYC?  Yeah she took out like 15 guys and... there's 500,000 of them.  Hawkeye wasn't exactly a major player either.  At least Cap got to direct tactics and be a battle leader.

 

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What is the point of making characters with vasty greater power if Granny's Purse is now a +8d6 Hand Attack added to her 20 STR, with which she strikes at 12 OCV?

Exactly my point about level 100 elks.  I get why people do this but its just silly.  There's no point in even having 1000 points if you still struggle against the same guys you did at 400 points.

[unclevlad]

Yeah, in a lot of ways, simply downscaling everything...including expectations...is the most straightforward approach.  The higher you go, the harder it is to nail things down...or the harder it is for people to accept.  And we're conditioned to really, insanely powerful characters...because writers are simply practicing dramatic license, and when we see mechanical translations...?  HSEG has the RPG-7V, an extremely common anti-tank weapon.  From WeaponSystems.net:

 

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Early PG-7V HEAT rounds were capable of penetrating 280 mm of homogenous steel plate, the latest PG-7VR tandem HEAT rocket penetrates over 600 mm behind ERA.

 

ERA is Explosive Reactive Armor.

 

So when HSEG calls this 7d6+1 *killing*...yeah, OK.  But that means you need close to 30 resistant defense.  It's also got...scary point...+1 STUN.  So 1/3 of the time, we're talking 75-90 STUN...and another 1/3, it's 100-120 STUN!  And this is "just" an RPG.  We expect a standard-super brick to take this, and keep going, by the source material...but man, cost that out......

 

This isn't some wild, crazy, rare attack, either.  So building those squishy-soft characters is just asking for an early funeral, unless they have particular tricks to avoid being targeted...Ego Blast's range is LOS.  That helps.  Flight and Invis to Sight, with ranged attacks and LOTS!!! of practice with Strafe, and 6 PSLs to offset range mods...yeah, there ya go.  But just blithely saying that squishy-soft concept *should* be playable in even a standard-power supers game, without these kinds of avoidance aspects, says you want GM Protection to me. 

[Word Sensei 515]

1/3rd & 2/3rds DCV would double your granularity,

1/3 could replace 0 OCV, making opponents still attackable up to -10 stun so you can knock someone out for more than a few phases unlike RAW, you knock someone out, instead of recovering in seconds it'll be long enough to begin thinking about helping elsewhere.

2/3rds DCV isn't so light if you don't allow defensive skill levels at all, plus the odd parity means you'll always round up or down & not have half-integers.

[Word Sensei 515]

Defensive Dice should use a lot fewer dice for 'high level' play; 6 or less, including the stun modifier.

[Word Sensei 515]

STUN multiplier what I meant was.

[greypaladin_01]

Going over everyone's posts it really feels this is an example of how almost all game systems break down at the extreme levels of play.  The answer to "playing more powerful" is not always just to add more points.  

A more simple method might be to set ground rules for how the world works and go from there.   Do superheroes need to have 10d6 Killing Attacks just to be able to damage a Tank?   Or should all "real" (non-super cars or such) vehicles have limits to max DEF... or perhaps only get half listed DEF against PC attacks.

It is a tangent but the vehicle rules using the same systems and mechanics as people and all gear always feels a bit janky and troublesome in HERO.. but that is different conversation.

If you are wanting to play Justice League levels but still want thugs and VIPER goons... then they are going to be a joke.  The best you can hope to do really is just have dozens of agents using teamwork and coordination to try and get combined STUN damage enough to get Stunned effect.   At those levels the 'real' world stuff just doesnt really do anything at all....

Maybe the answer is something even as simple as if you are in Paragon Tier (or however you want to call it)   You keep the CV levels still in line with the campaign but get free DR 25% or something against common weapons.   Without the math nightmare that is Damage Negation (shudder), there is no "bulletproof" in HERO anyway... so a little free boost to defense that only applies to normal/low end threats will help characters feel more powerful, but keep you from requiring everyone throwing 20-30d6 attacks just to get 15 STUN through.

[Doc Democracy]

I am with Paladin.  We know the window HERO was designed to play within and that window is focused on hero vs villain.

 

To make both the heroes and villains supercharged, the idea should be to shrink the rest of the world.  Boost the effectiveness of heroes/villains against the real world and degrade the effectiveness of real world  things against heroes/villains.

 

I am thinking that you introduce either an everyman 75% damage reduction against non-super damage for PCs and a vulnerability to attacks from supers on everyone and everything that are not supers.

 

That way the system sits where it was designed to but interactions with the world change dramatically.

 

Doc