Alternatives to OCV/DCV Modifications at High Power Levels

[SteelBraxus]

Hello,

 

I have a question regarding specific modifiers to OCV/DCV, specifically, the 'halving' effect. Certain combat maneuvers (and other game elements) can modify a character's OCV/DCV by half. I want to run a high-powered campaign, where characters might get OCV/DCV values of 20 or even higher. The halving effect at such great numbers can have a drastic effect on attack rolls compared to a simple -1 and -2 that other Combat Maneuvers generate.

 

Does anybody have an alternative modifier to the 'halving' effect that I could use that is still balanced, but would remain more consistent at higher power levels. I'm thinking -2, -3, or even up to -5. I can't seem to find any rules alternative to the 'halving' effect, so I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction for something like this, or perhaps let me in on a particularly useful house rule that remedies this situation.

 

Thank you for your time.

[LoneWolf]

Usually when you are halving a CV it only halves the DCV, not the OCV.  In most cases those are extremely bad circumstances and should have a huge effect on your character.  The other thing to remember is s that any halving are done last and only apply once per CV even if you have multiple conditions that halve the value.   So, if you are recovering from prone, stunned and being attacked by an invisible attacker you are still only half DCV.  

 

 

Any changes in this are going to probably alter the balance of the game.    With the current rules the above character with a 20 DCV would be DCV 10, if you take a -5 per circumstance, he is at 5.  Even at -5 that is a little on the low end for an adjustment.  Someone who is stunned should be at a big disadvantage.
 

[Jason Reid]

It's tough to have a uniform answer here because the distribution of CVs probably matters more than whether the campaign is "high powered" or "low powered". At the end of the day, the difference between 1/2 CV and e.g. -10 CV may not actually be that significant.

 

For example, if the average CV is 10, then 1/2 is a -5. If the average CV is 20, then 1/2 is a -10. So in the first case, all else being equal when the OCV was halved the attacker would need to roll a 6-. In the high powered campaign, they'd need to roll a 3. Now 6 is better 3 for sure but it's pretty crappy odds either way.

 

The way CVs work in this game, being high powered or low powered doesn't really matter too much. The difference between a 11 CV and a 10 CV is exactly the same as the difference between a 21 CV and a 20 CV, or even a 51 CV and a 50 CV. Little differences move along the bell curve at the same rate no matter how high the average is. Whether someone has a -5 or a "halved" CV isn't really much of a distinction because once you move down the bell curve a couple of points most of the significance is already captured.

 

Now if the distribution of CVs is very wide (some creatures have CVs of 10, others have ~20, and others have ~30) then things like "halving" vs "-5" matter more. But that's gonna be campaign dependent so its kind of on you as the GM to shape it into what you want. There wouldn't really be a simple "high-powered" rule vs a "low-powered" rule. At any power level, 1/2 DCV is basically saying, "if something targets you, you're gonna need to be pretty damn lucky to avoid getting hit".

 

But if I was forced to pick a number, I'd make it -5. The "Standard Superheroic" baseline for CVs is 7-13, and since I think "Standard Superheroic" is probably the default around which Hero is initially balanced, that would make the average 1/2 CV penalty a -5. That said, I wouldn't do this. Unless I was forced to. Generally I'm gonna want my star enemies to have better CVs than the PCs, and I'm gonna want the PCs to realize the biggest possible benefit when they successfully stun them.

[unclevlad]

First...20?  Is there really a reason to go that high?  Average, reasonably powerful super is in the 8-10 range;  16 OCV vs. 10 DCV is only miss on an 18, and 10 OCV vs. 16 DCV only hits on a 5-, which is 1 in 20.  

 

I don't have a problem with it, cuz the 1/2 DCV is a major issue at even a 12.  Just sayin' that scaling VERY high power games is tricky.  Really, really high CVs tends to be expensive overkill.

 

As far as the rules go...

 

Non-combat movement?  Check out Velocity-based DCV.  When your Velo DCV is 40 or so, half DCV isn't a big deal.

 

Multiple Attack?  APG I, IIRC...Defensive Attack.  Multiple attacks give -2 instead of 1/2 DCV.

 

Have the characters take martial maneuvers to replace the standard, free combat maneuvers that halve DCV.  Personal bias?  NO advanced, high power character should EVER use a bare standard maneuver.  Basic maneuvers are for rookies.  I'm heavily, HEAVILY biased to saying they've got training...sometimes that's as little as 15 points in martial maneuvers, but rarely it's been closer to 40, when the build has both HTH and ranged martial maneuvers.

 

Look at workarounds.  Not that many situations impose 1/2 DCV;  it IS a severe penalty.  Multiple Attack...addressed.  Brace...don't use it.  Ever.  Penalty skill levels for Range Mods.  Stunned?  The obvious solution:  don't *get* stunned.  50% damage reduction is pricey, sure, but it can *seriously* help avoid the problem.  The higher the average attack dice, the more sense DR makes.  50% *tends* to be the cost effective level.  25% is largely useless, 75% is not cost-effective.  

 

A *possible* workaround for STUN...there's bizarre wording in DR, where it works against certain Drains and AVADs...even without the standard defense.  The rules are bloody incomplete, IMO...WHEN can you apply them?  If you have 50% energy but 75% physical, which applies???  Fine. Toss that BS out.  And cut the costs because they're horrible, mathematically and structurally.  They've never fit.  10, 20, and 30 for 25, 50, 75%.  And toss the options like Nonresistant and STUN Only out the window;  trust me, STUN Only is for points mongering.  

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its probably worth putting out some kind of high end Hero rules, stuff for really super powerful characters over 1k points

[Word Sensei 515]

Perhaps 1/2 DCV should be 2/3rds DCV & 0 DCV could be 1/3 DVC, somehow standing & cursing you out, with -10 STUN when your  actually dead unconscious.

[LoneWolf]

In my experience a high-powered game in the Hero System I s a lot different than in other games.  Other games tend to abstract combat so that your tactics have minimal impact on the game. In a game like Pathfinder or D&D each character gets an equal number of chances to act and basically trade of acting.  Your characters tactics usually just modify your chance to hit and damage.  There are some exceptions but for the most part you are simply taking turns trying to hit your opponents and rolling for damage. 

 

In the Hero System things are a lot more dynamic.  Your tactics in the Hero System can mean the difference between winning and losing the fight. Making a mistake and leaving yourself at a disadvantage can mean you straight up lose.  On the flip side you can also setup your opponent to leave themselves open and win outright.  This happens even more in high powered games.  I have seen a lot of combats where the characters are switching between offensive and defensive tactics trying to create an opening.  

 

For example, I had a character fighting multiple agents who switched to defensive tactics until a phase came up that none of them could attack him.  During this phase he performed a sweep with a maneuver that killed his DCV but allowed him to take out a couple of the agents.  When the remaining agents attacked, he canceled to a defensive action to boost his DCV back up.  He kept using this tactic until he won the combat.  In a one-on-one combat this often leads to situations where the combat is decided by a single decisive hit.  The combat can go on for a while until one of the characters makes a mistake and then it is over. 

 

Eliminating the halving of DCV makes these types of tactics more difficult so you end up with a combat similar to other game systems where you are trading blows until the HP run out.  Minimizing the risks of trying something dangerous makes pulling it off boring and mundane.   

[Doc Democracy]

I can see no reason, in a high powered game why everyone is not running at close to SPD 12.  More actions is almost always better and while 10 points per point is a huge investment for a 300-400 point character, once you are spending 1000 points, 100 points to act in EVERY segment is invaluable...

 

I agree with the CV comments. I will presume CV 16 for the campaign for the purposes of this example. Losing 3 points of DCV takes you, on average, from getting hit 62.5% of the time to getting hit 91% of the time.  Every point after that makes little difference.  If you rely on DCV rather than defences then you are possibly more affected.  If your DCV is 5 above the campaign average (DCV 21) then you get hit 9% of the time and when that is halved (to 11) then you get hit 98% of the time.   A massive difference.  If you were to impose a flat -5DCV then the same situation goes from being hit 9% of the time to getting hit 62.5% of the time.  Still a significant difference.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

A lot of the comments suggest -5 DCV, but many maneuvers impose -3 and some even impose -5 already, IIRC.  This comes down to how disadvantageous you want things that currently halve DCV to be in the game.  If the penalty is relatively modest, say a -5 DCV, then buying limited DCV to counteract it, limited to a single maneuver, would not be a huge investment at high point levels. Maybe I plan to Multiple Attack regularly, or a DCV-focused character could buy +5 DCV only when Stunned.

 

The other question is why bother cranking CVs up to 20 or so? If all the characters have CVs of 19-21, then they interact just as if they had 9 - 11 and spend 100 extra points.  Will those stratospheric CVs have any in-game effect, or are they just a Cosmic Character Tax?

[unclevlad]

And note that even -5 DCV is huge, unless it's a total mismatch.  If my base DCV is +3 to your OCV, you're at 8- to hit, basically 1 in 4.  -5 would give you a 13-, basically 5 out of 6.  If my DCV was +7, then a -5 would take you from 1 in 50 to hit, to 3 out of 8.  If it's more, well, ok, it stops mattering, really, but even a 7 point base CV difference is crazy huge most of the time.  

 

So if the high-powered character is trained?  They'll train so those massive OCV and DCV penalties that can be avoided, are avoided.  1000 points is a LOT!!! of points.  Haymaker has the -5 DCV...well, DON'T HAYMAKER.  EVER.  At these levels.  With 1000 points you can put 20-30 in martial maneuvers.  It doesn't mean you're a martial artist, it can mean you simply have experience in HTH.  You know how to move, how to throw an effective punch.  OK, fine, if you're running an Incredible Hulk, well, that isn't there;  Hulk gets by on raw power and defenses that are beyond insane.

 

Worst penalties in standard maneuvers:

Haymaker, -5 DCV

Grab By, -4 DCV

Move Through, -3 DCV and -v/10 OCV

Strafe, -v/6 OCV

 

I'm just referencing 6E2 56 here.  Multiple Attack has the really big ones...but as I mentioned, APG I, page 38, has Defensive Attack...you're only -2 DCV, instead of 1/2 DCV, when making a multiple attack.  With 1000+ points?  Build the serious Master of Combat.  Defense Maneuver.  Rapid Attack.  Defensive Attack.  Two Weapons Fighting...I strongly suggest blowing off the limit about using it with unarmed HTH and innate powers, but then, I also buy full Ambidexterity at even a 23 DEX.  For the rest, Offensive Strike replaces Haymaker.  Grab By and Move By/Through...there may not be martial maneuvers to replace these, within the 2 standard books, but there are in Hero System Martial Arts.

 

[unclevlad]

On the point of high-end guidelines...

 

Just for grins, built a 5E "character" called Kiloton...because that's about what he can lift.  75 STR, listed as 800 tons.  Push 2 points and you get a kiloton, so why not.

 

No ECs.  Actually NO limitations whatsoever right now that aren't mandatory (5E Regen).

 

940 points.

28d6 attack (11 DCs HTH, because IMO STR damage scales ridiculously too slowly)

40 DEF, 30 resistant, and 75% DR, resistant.  (28d6 punches can mean well over 100 STUN.  9d6 Killing can easily approach 40 BODY.)

37 points in martial maneuvers, with some overlap, cuz I'm thinking he's learned 3 different styles

30 points of Combat Master:  Defense Maneuver IV, Rapid Attack, Defensive Attack, and Two Weapon Fighting

38 DEX, 28 INT, 9 SPD...some might push the SPD even higher.  Base CV is 13, but there's about 5 levels to play with, between martial maneuvers and CSLs.

Flight at about 900 mph (17", x16 NC)

25 points Power Def, 15 points Mental Def

 

Left 60 points for other skills that I don't feel like bothering with, as this is just a thought experiment.  What's missing?  The biggest potential holes would be contributing to a base, and followers/contacts.  That could get decently pricey.  And that's an issue for the guidelines...at these levels, what SHOULD a character spend on these aspects?  And, while this is using 5E, and tanks are just insanely inexpensive...there's NO attempt to shave points, either.  A high-end blaster could have a *rather* large EC.

 

And of course, 28d6 is getting pretty bloody absurd, but that's not really the point.  It's what you can do...cleanly, without any rules manipulation, unless you consider the Martial Arts DCs manipulative.  I'd disagree, as there's lots of ways to do that...and you could just buy more STR, which might end up CHEAPER in 5E.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah that's the kind of thing I mean.  Maybe at a certain power level the rules behave differently.  You get 2d6 per 5 STR after 60, for example.

[unclevlad]

Another general issue...what does one mean by "high scale"?

 

Ran across this.  It's somewhat ambiguous...what exactly is city block level durability?  But still, it outlines the notions involved, the descriptive notions for the kinds of power we're talking about.

 

https://marvel-dc.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System

 

My sense is, my guy up there is Urban level...8-B or 8-A.  But also remember, destroying a town is QUITE a bit bigger.  And City Level, 7-B, is leveling multiple square miles.  Not damaging...FLATTENING.  Perhaps 24d6, 48m radius Explosions?  But if you want to take out a major building, there's a LOT!!! of BODY to account for, if you're being realistic.  (Granted, things like the wall rules aren't realistic...which is a separate issue when we're talking this level.) BTW, in the equipment guide, a wire-guided missile has a damage rating of 8d6K Explosion...and AP x2.  That's for getting through tank armor.  Is your notion of high power being able to take out a tank....or one-shot a tank through the front armor?  it's rated at 20 and the wire-guided missile suggests it's got at least 1 level of hardened, too.  Or, is your goal to say...one-shot?  Nonononononoo...roadkill it.  Vaporize it.  Start looking at the DCs involved..............

 

2 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah that's the kind of thing I mean.  Maybe at a certain power level the rules behave differently.  You get 2d6 per 5 STR after 60, for example.

 

I'd rather not give anything more.  I just take it as a justification for buying an HA or martial DCs.  A 60 STR is 100 tons;  that's well up there, but it's only a 12d6 punch.  I also like treating Lightning Reflexes to suggest you can accelerate/move quicker than usual...and with a punch, that means more damage.  So 5 points of LR, generally for All Actions, also justifies buying 1d6 of damage in a similar manner.

[dmjalund]

12 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I can see no reason, in a high powered game why everyone is not running at close to SPD 12.

speed 12 may not be appropriate for all concepts. Some may choose to enhance powers so they can attack multiple targets, or can attack a single target multiple times. also make defenses more capable of defending against attackers with high speed

[unclevlad]

SPD 12 can also mean you're burning through a LOT of END.  IF you're built so you can take a recovery...and IF the opposition lets you...that may be fine.  Remember, tho, you can't have any powers active that are costing you END.  It isn't that it's not feasible, it's just a lot narrower...particularly at higher levels where open phases where splitting the goons between SPD 6 and SPD 7 leaves only 1, 3, and 5 as clear.

[Hugh Neilson]

The challenge, as identified above, is what you decide "high end" means.  CV 13 - 18 sounds pretty good, but the OP was tossing around 20 as a baseline.  How does Kiloton stack up if the norm is 20 OCV/20 DCV?

 

The issue is no different than 450 point Supers or 150 point Competent Normals - setting expectations is important. 28d6 will average 98 STUN, which those defenses will leave at about 15 past defenses.  Is that the expected norm?  If we assume he gets hit 5 or 6 times a turn, with those higher SPDs, he'll soak up 75 - 90 STUN per turn.  Should he have enough STUN/REC to last 1 turn or 3?  Similar for END.  Lots of moving parts to consider.
 

 

Scale the rest of the world to match - agents with CVs that might hit, 6-7 SPD and enough DCs and defenses to matter - and these characters will feel no more powerful than 450 point Supers.  How will these power levels scale to the rest of the world around them?  That will set a lot of the game's feel.

[Christopher R Taylor]

One of my least favorite devices in computer games is when the world "levels up" with you, so its just as big a threat to you at level 28 as it was at level 2.  You get ridiculous crap like level 100 eagles and wolves in World of Warcraft, because you're level 100 and everything matches your power.  It strips away nearly all sense of power growth and advancement and has very odd effects on the storyline.

 

"why didn't we just send these level 100 elk and porcupines to fight the Legion in the last expansion?  We could have rest easy at level 90 knowing the more powerful fauna of this world could conquer our enemies."

[unclevlad]

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The challenge, as identified above, is what you decide "high end" means.  CV 13 - 18 sounds pretty good, but the OP was tossing around 20 as a baseline.  How does Kiloton stack up if the norm is 20 OCV/20 DCV?

 

 

Sure, but I wasn't trying to build to any specific goal, just pointing out that 1000 points is a LOT of points, and the 20 CV is very likely overkill.  

 

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

One of my least favorite devices in computer games is when the world "levels up" with you, so its just as big a threat to you at level 28 as it was at level 2.  You get ridiculous crap like level 100 eagles and wolves in World of Warcraft, because you're level 100 and everything matches your power.  It strips away nearly all sense of power growth and advancement and has very odd effects on the storyline.

 

It is the easier methodology, rather than building specifically 100 level versions that are clearly NOT the same as what you faced earlier.  But, yes, it can be rather irritating.

 

The problem is, tho, what does it take to challenge a Kiloton, or any other coherently built character with 900-ish points in combat-related points?  Escalation issues have always led to serious distortions.  How many ancient dragons *are* there in a given region?  And why is this ancient lich active *now* just as the PCs can handle him?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Escalation issues have always led to serious distortions.  How many ancient dragons *are* there in a given region?  And why is this ancient lich active *now* just as the PCs can handle him?

 

Its like Marvel Comics, were ancient super powerful beings who have Always Been There keep being revealed.  No, no, Senor Catastrophe was always around behind the scenes, its only just now that we have become aware of them!  Or the gigantic conspiracy super agencies that keep being revealed.  Nobody ever noticed them before despite their colorful costumes and massive infiltration into everything!

 

I get that comic books are innately kind of silly and childish but there are limits to what you can plausibly get away with.

[Doc Democracy]

14 hours ago, dmjalund said:

speed 12 may not be appropriate for all concepts. Some may choose to enhance powers so they can attack multiple targets, or can attack a single target multiple times. also make defenses more capable of defending against attackers with high speed

 

If one player takes SPD 12, every other PC will be at 10 minimum, even if just for the spotlight time.  However, it is such a valuable thing to be able to act more.

 

13 hours ago, unclevlad said:

SPD 12 can also mean you're burning through a LOT of END.  IF you're built so you can take a recovery...and IF the opposition lets you...that may be fine.  Remember, tho, you can't have any powers active that are costing you END.  It isn't that it's not feasible, it's just a lot narrower...particularly at higher levels where open phases where splitting the goons between SPD 6 and SPD 7 leaves only 1, 3, and 5 as clear.

 

END does become important but there are plenty of ways to manage that, not least by good use of 0 END powers, END Batteries and drains that add to END.

[dmjalund]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

f one player takes SPD 12, every other PC will be at 10 minimum, even if just for the spotlight time.  However, it is such a valuable thing to be able to act more.

I'm of the opinion that "Having the points available" and "I need to keep up" are poor reasons for a character to have any superhuman attribute

[Doc Democracy]

2 hours ago, dmjalund said:

I'm of the opinion that "Having the points available" and "I need to keep up" are poor reasons for a character to have any superhuman attribute

 

Yeah, but that is what we saw  always in the game, folk had high CON, high STR and high SPDs regardless of what their character background was, just to be competitive.  People had decent resistant defences, because they didnt want to take BODY damage, not because their concept demanded it. 

 

The need to stay competitive is a reality in the game, it is best to accept and accommodate that, because otherwise you will ensure certain concepts are rarely ever used.  I allow my players to build the characters they want to play and to have them competitive in the game.  I dont demand that well-trained individuals stay away from high characteristics and high defences, I certainly do not expect them to have SPD 2/3 because they are not superhuman, while their firneds build superhumans running about with SPD 6 or 7.

 

If you are going to be cosmic heroes, built on 1000+ points then I think that you will act more often and more effectively than normal humans, you will be on a different plane and most often, I see that with high SPD characters.  And, if one player has a character acting 12 times a round and another is only acting 6 times a round, it begins to get boring.  So the SPD tends to drift up to the fastest player....

 

Doc

[dmjalund]

5 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Yeah, but that is what we saw  always in the game, folk had high CON, high STR and high SPDs regardless of what their character background was, just to be competitive.  People had decent resistant defences, because they didnt want to take BODY damage, not because their concept demanded it. 

 

The need to stay competitive is a reality in the game, it is best to accept and accommodate that, because otherwise you will ensure certain concepts are rarely ever used.  I allow my players to build the characters they want to play and to have them competitive in the game.  I dont demand that well-trained individuals stay away from high characteristics and high defences, I certainly do not expect them to have SPD 2/3 because they are not superhuman, while their firneds build superhumans running about with SPD 6 or 7.

 

If you are going to be cosmic heroes, built on 1000+ points then I think that you will act more often and more effectively than normal humans, you will be on a different plane and most often, I see that with high SPD characters.  And, if one player has a character acting 12 times a round and another is only acting 6 times a round, it begins to get boring.  So the SPD tends to drift up to the fastest player....

 

Doc

then this is a really big flaw in the game, and i would rather play something else if this is the only way to play high power Champions

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The need to stay competitive is a reality in the game, it is best to accept and accommodate that, because otherwise you will ensure certain concepts are rarely ever used.

 

But that's just it.  Certain concepts are NEVER used if that's the way its played.

[Doc Democracy]

3 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

then this is a really big flaw in the game, and i would rather play something else if this is the only way to play high power Champions

 

I am not saying it is the only way to play high power Champions.  In my experience it is how Champions has been played extensively in the past - just looking at the published characters.  Look at the Dex and CON scores of characters in 4th edition characters.  Those were rarely related to concept - it was about point efficiency and delivering gamable PCs. 

That stuff does not have to be the point of the character, or even be the primary thrust but things that make a character competitive will often over-rule strict adherence to concept.  (again, all in my experience, and my groups have tended towards gamist play than narrative).

5 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

But that's just it.  Certain concepts are NEVER used if that's the way its played.

 

I am not sure I follow.  Are you saying that if I buy high defences, or high SPD, or high STR for my character that it invalidates certain concepts?