Making shadow clone power

[Hugh Neilson]

11 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

I think I've figured a way to do this, but it's really complicated and expensive.

 

Zed chould buy all the Powers that the Shadow Clones will have access to first. Then buy Auto-fire and Indirect on all of them as Naked Advantages and add a Custom Limitation based off Retrainable to allow for them being destructible and perhaps an Extra Time to manifest them. I think that covers everything, but I wouldn't want to have to write this up.

 

Or with GM permission, he could make use of the 5-point doubling rule to make copies of a Multipower bought through a Focus and just have them be Fragile.

 

Physical Manifestation seems like the relevant limitation.

 

To limited SP, I've put activation rolls on SPD.  Make the roll at PS 12 for the coming turn.  This allows a character to gradually invest a point or two at a time into SPD.

[LoneWolf]

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

I think I've figured a way to do this, but it's really complicated and expensive.

 

Zed chould buy all the Powers that the Shadow Clones will have access to first. Then buy Auto-fire and Indirect on all of them as Naked Advantages and add a Custom Limitation based off Retrainable to allow for them being destructible and perhaps an Extra Time to manifest them. I think that covers everything, but I wouldn't want to have to write this up.

 

Or with GM permission, he could make use of the 5-point doubling rule to make copies of a Multipower bought through a Focus and just have them be Fragile.

 

It will be incredibly expensive you will also need the advantage ranged as well.   You will need fully indirect and might need to add the +1 Non-Standard Defense to the autofire if the character has any unusual attacks.  On the standard 12D6 attack that comes out to 165 points.  That also only covers attacks it does not give the ability to swap places with his shadow.  

[Grailknight]

19 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

 

It will be incredibly expensive you will also need the advantage ranged as well.   You will need fully indirect and might need to add the +1 Non-Standard Defense to the autofire if the character has any unusual attacks.  On the standard 12D6 attack that comes out to 165 points.  That also only covers attacks it does not give the ability to swap places with his shadow.  

That's just teleport with an SFX and a Limitation. I doubt the Shadow Clones will leave LOS.

 

Like I said, incredibly expensive but I think it covers what he wants. Sometimes HERO is like that.

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Physical Manifestation seems like the relevant limitation.

 

To limited SP, I've put activation rolls on SPD.  Make the roll at PS 12 for the coming turn.  This allows a character to gradually invest a point or two at a time into SPD.

 

Thank you, I had a mental block that kept me from recalling that one.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Grailknight

[Duke Bushido]

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Physical Manifestation

 

 

Thank you!  Thank you so much!

 

I tried for _hours_ to remember the name of that limitation, and I just couldn't get it anywhere near the ol' forebrain!

 

Yes; that is exactly how I saw the shadow guys working when OP described them as one-hit knockovers.

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

On 10/11/2023 at 6:30 PM, Doc Democracy said:

As such, if I was given such a character, I would be looking at a character with perhaps 5 SPD and +3 SPD (physical manifestation) and a naked advantage to apply indirect to physical skills (from any of the shadows created when the SPD is activated).  The swapping is, to me, effectively a limited teleport, only to the locations of the Shadows.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

Thank you!  Thank you so much!

 

I tried for _hours_ to remember the name of that limitation, and I just couldn't get it anywhere near the ol' forebrain!

 

Yes; that is exactly how I saw the shadow guys working when OP described them as one-hit knockovers.

 

Hmm. So when Hugh says it, it is genius, even when I used it in the first response of the thread!!

 

😁😇🤐💪🧐🤣

[Duke Bushido]

Sorry, Dude.

 

I'm cruising the site on a phone on one of two ten minute breaks from a location with spotty coverage.

 

I do a lot of skimming.

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

😇

15 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Thank you, I had a mental block that kept me from recalling that one.

 

Ach, it wasn't just you, I need to understand that my brilliance will constantly go unappreciated.

 

It is like the women in teams that suggest stuff, get ignored and watch a male colleague praised for repeating the idea.

🤔😇

 

[Hugh Neilson]

5 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

😇

 

Ach, it wasn't just you, I need to understand that my brilliance will constantly go unappreciated.

 

It is like the women in teams that suggest stuff, get ignored and watch a male colleague praised for repeating the idea.

🤔😇

 

That's GENIUS! 

[migo2154]

On 10/13/2023 at 1:55 PM, Grailknight said:

I think I've figured a way to do this, but it's really complicated and expensive.

 

Zed chould buy all the Powers that the Shadow Clones will have access to first. Then buy Auto-fire and Indirect on all of them as Naked Advantages and add a Custom Limitation based off Retrainable to allow for them being destructible and perhaps an Extra Time to manifest them. I think that covers everything, but I wouldn't want to have to write this up.

 

Or with GM permission, he could make use of the 5-point doubling rule to make copies of a Multipower bought through a Focus and just have them be Fragile.

Omg xD, i didn't understood at all haha. 

So, it's basically build the shadows as a set of powers with naked advantage, and then apply it a 5-point rule to allow me use it multiple times?.

 

 

On 10/13/2023 at 2:08 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Physical Manifestation seems like the relevant limitation.

 

To limited SP, I've put activation rolls on SPD.  Make the roll at PS 12 for the coming turn.  This allows a character to gradually invest a point or two at a time into SPD.

So, in this context, Physical Manifestation represents the custom limitation Grailknight mentioned?.

I'm sorry for my ignorance, but what means SP? 😆.

 

 

On 10/13/2023 at 3:41 PM, Grailknight said:

That's just teleport with an SFX and a Limitation. I doubt the Shadow Clones will leave LOS.

 

Like I said, incredibly expensive but I think it covers what he wants. Sometimes HERO is like that.

 

Thank you, I had a mental block that kept me from recalling that one.

What means LOS?. I'm sorry but i'm still not so used to the Hero Abbreviations. 😅

Edited October 14, 2023 by migo2154

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, migo2154 said:

What means LOS?.

 

 

Line of sight.

 

2 hours ago, migo2154 said:

 

I'm sorry but i'm still not so used to the Hero Abbreviations. 😅

 

 

It's okay.  I myself have never gotten used to the reflex to overcomplicate a build.

 

From what you have said so far, I see whatever ranged attacks Zed has as being bought with Indirect and Physical manifestation and Restrainable (successful hit on shadow guy), which simulate shadow guys.

 

The T-port and a couple of floating locations (again, with physical manifestation and Restrainable) work to, again, simulate swapping places with shadow guys.

 

You can put ranged and indirect and physical manifestation and Restrainable and whatever else on your martial arts and strength (with GM permission) if you want, but i'd just buy a couple of dice of Blast or Ranged Killing Attack (versus PD) with Indirect and Physical manifestation and Restrainable and use that to represent whatever sort of hi-yah! Your shadow guy is dishing out.

 

Done enough, at least until play testing.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

You can put ranged and indirect and physical manifestation and Restrainable and whatever else on your martial arts and strength (with GM permission) if you want, but i'd just buy a couple of dice of Blast or Ranged Killing Attack (versus PD) with Indirect and Physical manifestation and Restrainable and use that to represent whatever sort of hi-yah! Your shadow guy is dishing out.

 

 

Let me revise that:  my original call was Telekinesis, and I stand by that, as it lets you simulate both physical blows and the ability to grab or even carry.  Put "physical manifestation" and "Restrainable" on it to simulate that the shadow guys must be able to reach the target before they can attack it.

 

If need be, buy some,additional TK with "only to increase strike damage" for whatever martial maneuvers you might have available.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

16 hours ago, migo2154 said:

So, it's basically build the shadows as a set of powers with naked advantage, and then apply it a 5-point rule to allow me use it multiple times?

 

That seems to be the suggestion.  It seems like a really complicated way to make the ability expensive, for the sole reason of avoiding the Shadows being Summons or Duplicates.  Given they will typically be attacking separate people, in different locations, or doing other things different from the main character, they will need separate rolls anyway.  That seems like it will focus as much time on this character as duplicates or summons would, so I'm not sure it really saves much.

 

16 hours ago, migo2154 said:

So, in this context, Physical Manifestation represents the custom limitation Grailknight mentioned?.

 

It's not Custom - it's on page 387 of the first volume of the 6e rules.  The shadows get treated as a breakable focus (which means they have some defense, and 1 BOD per power, but as it's normally only on one power, that's 1 BOD).  It is generally restricted to situations where the character can't just reactivate the power as a normal action, or is otherwise inconvenienced by the loss of the power between phases.  For Telekinesis, I'd allow it as the destruction of a shadow means it drops anything it was holding, releases anyone it had grabbed, etc.  I'm still not sure it's the best approach.

 

16 hours ago, migo2154 said:

I'm sorry for my ignorance, but what means SP? 😆.

 

What means LOS?. I'm sorry but i'm still not so used to the Hero Abbreviations. 😅

 

Well, SP means I can't type as it should be SPD, for Speed.

 

LOS is "Line of Sight"

 

 

10 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Let me revise that:  my original call was Telekinesis, and I stand by that, as it lets you simulate both physical blows and the ability to grab or even carry.  Put "physical manifestation" and "Restrainable" on it to simulate that the shadow guys must be able to reach the target before they can attack it.

 

If need be, buy some,additional TK with "only to increase strike damage" for whatever martial maneuvers you might have available.

 

 

 

Martial Arts also need a Weapon Element (but it's only 1 point) to be usable with TK. I think restrainable at -1/2 would be reasonable in requiring the shadows move to their targets (that movement rate needs to be defined), could be grabbed (which I assume would mean Zed can't summon a new one until the old one has been dealt with) and can be destroyed by a 1 BOD hit.  As it's a more limited version of Physical Manifestation, I'd leave it as Restrainable only.

 

But does this meet the original goal?

 

On 10/11/2023 at 11:01 AM, migo2154 said:

Hello everyone!

I'm about to play a super hero campaign, so for this game i want to play a ninja, and, of all ninjas i know of, there's one i'm very interested to play: Zed.

For those that hasn't player LoL (good for you, never try play that sh... game), Zed is a ninja inspired in Shredder (The main Villain of Ninja Turtless).

He's a martial artist with very high combat skills, very good stealth, and is a expert in closed and ranged combat using all kinds of martial weapons. But, also, he has a special ability... He can control shadows. That is, a special power that allows him to create a couple of shadowed versions of himself, that he can use to make some kind of ninja tricks... And, since i want to play a Hero version of Zed, i'm, of course, trying to imitate this ability.

 

The first issue is defining exactly what they can do (which of Zed's abilities they have, at what power level, and which abilities they lack). Feels like you are well on the way there.  These really sound like duplicates or summons, despite the reservations expressed by many posters.

 

On 10/11/2023 at 11:01 AM, migo2154 said:

There are some rules for these shadows:

- Zed can use more than one shadow simultaneously (Can be up to three, that's what my GM said).

 

This sounds like the GM is expecting Summon or Duplication.  Some further items to iron out would be whether he can create all three at once, or only one at a time, and how long he has to wait before re-creating one that has been killed.

 

On 10/11/2023 at 11:01 AM, migo2154 said:

- Shadows can die with every damage they receive (They simply have 1 hp and no defense).

 

This could mean 1 BOD and no defenses (and could even mean automatons, but that complicates matters further), or it could simply mean a Complication on all Shadows that they are dispelled by taking any STUN or BODY damage, whether it would normally defeat them or not.

 

On 10/11/2023 at 11:01 AM, migo2154 said:

- Shadows can imitate every of the Zed's abilitys, except the shadow creation power.
- Shadows have the very same weapons that zed currently has, and they can use it as effectively as Zed can, but they probably cause less damage than Zed.
- Shadows are physically equals to Zed, but with a shadow translucid appareance, because they're made of dark martial arts powers or something like that.

 

This would just come down to the Summon or Duplication.  Build a Shadow as a separate character. Its point total sets the price of the Summon or Duplication ability. They might have Distinctive Features for their appearance.

 

On 10/11/2023 at 11:01 AM, migo2154 said:

- Shadows only can act by zed's mental orders, they can't act at their own because they don't have conscience.
- If Zed falls unconscious, all shadows disappear.
- There could be a maximun distance between zed and his shadows until they automatically disappear, i think on something like less than 500m.

 

Having no consciousness could mean they are automatons, or could simply be a Complication of the Shadows.  Given that he has complete mental control, and they vanish if he's not around to control them, this could just as easily be ignored.  They do what he wants as long as he's able to express that.  I'd bundle their disappearance if he's KOd and any maximum distance into a Complication for the Shadows themselves.

 

On 10/11/2023 at 11:01 AM, migo2154 said:

- Zed can swap position with any shadow, even if zed is entangled, as long as zed is not stunned or unconscious. Zed is also aware of the location of every one of his shadows.

 

The Awareness sounds like a Mind Link, which is not a bad idea for the mental commands either.

 

The swapping Teleport is trickier.  Is it an Instant movement power?   If so, you need enough Teleportation to cover any distance between them, which will be pricy.  This could be mitigated with a short-distance Teleportation that works like normal movement, and either non-combat multiples or a minor Megascale advantage for longer distances, but that would require non-combat movement. This could be limited to require both characters to use their own Teleportation powers simultaneously, rather than building a "usable by others at range" construct.

 

So Step 1 is to design the Shadow Forms themselves.  Let's assume that they come in at 250 points (just guessing - they don't need a lot of Zed's abilities - no point having a lot of defenses, STUN, BOD, etc.; they won't have the Shadow power or as much damage - keep in mind that it's really damage after defenses that matters, so I would not drop them more than 2  or 3 damage classes - 1 damage class is 1d6 normal damage; 3 are 1d6 killing damage).

 

Step 2 is deciding between Summon and Duplication.

 

Summon costs END. The Shadows will show up adjacent to Zed.  The base cost is 1/5 of the Shadow's points (not reduced by complications), so 50 assuming they come in at 250 points.   +5 points doubles the number, so you need +10 to get to 3 (more than two; no more than 4).  All three can be summoned as one full-phase action.  The Shadows arrive stunned, so they will use their first phase recovering.  They would be Slavishly Loyal (a +1 advantage) and will stick around long enough to perform a number of tasks equal to Zed's Ego (1 phase of combat is normally considered 1 task).  That's 120 Active Points and 24 END. 

 

Duplication requires the duplicates to also have the Duplication power, which likely bumps up the total points on the sheet.  Like Summon, the base cost is 1/5 the total points of the Duplicate, and each doubling adds 5 points to that cost. As long as the differences between Zed and the duplicates are limited to having lesser versions of the same abilities, no advantages are required.  Significant differences require an advantage for "Altered Duplicates".  I would allow the reduced abilities and additional Complications without requiring an Altered Duplicate advantage, but your GM may see it differently. Duplication does not cost END, but it takes a half phase to create each duplicate.  You can double the number of duplicates created in an action with a 1/4 advantage, so all three at once requires +1/2. The Duplicate arrives adjacent, and gets no action that segment, but is not Stunned for its first phase (an advantage over Summoned).  Normally, recombining with Duplicates requires a full phase, touching the duplicates, and being at 0 DCV. Advantages can make this easier and/or allow it at range.  Injuries are shared between the base and duplicate characters.  As was noted earlier, dead duplicates are gone (so a Regeneration/resurrection power for the duplicates, using the Altered Duplicates advantages, might be considered).

 

Overall, I think what you are describing fits best as an Amicable Summon.  That will be a pricy ability.  The cost and END could be reduced by taking Charges.  Maybe he can only Summon a few times per day. This does not require Continuing charges as Summon is an instant powers - the shadows would stick around, but can't be re-summoned without using a charge.  You could also consider buying charges in clips of one charge with an "increased reloading time" - for example, if it takes 5 minutes to "change clips" (e.g. 5 minutes of meditation) before the Shadows can be summoned again, that's an additional -1 limitation.  Charges and clips can be used to simulate the ability to summon the shadows only once or twice (clips of 2 charges) in a brief period, like combat, while having more uses daily (the total charges).

 

There are a lot of in-game implications, and quite a bit of judgment required.  Discussing all the details with your GM to ensure you both expect the power to work in the same way, and that the GM is comfortable with the approach taken (e.g. complications versus low defenses versus a limitation on the power; how often he can summon; etc.) is crucial in my opinion.

 

As a GM, the other commitment I would want is that this ability not bog down play - that is, you need to be ready with your and the Shadows' actions when your phase comes up, not hem and haw over multiple possible actions, and "maybe I'll do this but no, wait, I could do that, and let's have that shadow do something else instead of what I first said, and where is my third shadow again".  Often, players get "analysis paralysis" - a commitment to picking an action and moving the game forward (not analyzing every possibility to optimize effectiveness) is a much better simulation of the chaos of second-by-second combat anyway. That depends a lot on your group's play style - some groups are fine with one player's action that takes 2 - 3 seconds in game being a 15 minute round-table discussion of all the options.  Other groups expect a much faster pace of play.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Martial Arts also need a Weapon Element (but it's only 1 point) to be usable with TK. I think restrainable at -1/2 would be reasonable in requiring the shadows move to their targets (that movement rate needs to be defined),

 

 

[Well, crud.  There isn't a way to unpost this (upon re-reading it, I found it to contribute nothing useful to the discussion), so I guess we are going to settle on this edited post xhokinf up,the thread.

 

 

Anyway, on this one point, I believe we should agree to disagree, Sir.

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[migo2154]

18 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Line of sight.

 

 

 

It's okay.  I myself have never gotten used to the reflex to overcomplicate a build.

 

From what you have said so far, I see whatever ranged attacks Zed has as being bought with Indirect and Physical manifestation and Restrainable (successful hit on shadow guy), which simulate shadow guys.

 

The T-port and a couple of floating locations (again, with physical manifestation and Restrainable) work to, again, simulate swapping places with shadow guys.

 

You can put ranged and indirect and physical manifestation and Restrainable and whatever else on your martial arts and strength (with GM permission) if you want, but i'd just buy a couple of dice of Blast or Ranged Killing Attack (versus PD) with Indirect and Physical manifestation and Restrainable and use that to represent whatever sort of hi-yah! Your shadow guy is dishing out.

 

Done enough, at least until play testing.

 

 

Ok ok, understood. Yeah i can discuss it with my GM. Thank you very much! ^ ^

 

 

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

That seems to be the suggestion.  It seems like a really complicated way to make the ability expensive, for the sole reason of avoiding the Shadows being Summons or Duplicates.  Given they will typically be attacking separate people, in different locations, or doing other things different from the main character, they will need separate rolls anyway.  That seems like it will focus as much time on this character as duplicates or summons would, so I'm not sure it really saves much.

 

 

It's not Custom - it's on page 387 of the first volume of the 6e rules.  The shadows get treated as a breakable focus (which means they have some defense, and 1 BOD per power, but as it's normally only on one power, that's 1 BOD).  It is generally restricted to situations where the character can't just reactivate the power as a normal action, or is otherwise inconvenienced by the loss of the power between phases.  For Telekinesis, I'd allow it as the destruction of a shadow means it drops anything it was holding, releases anyone it had grabbed, etc.  I'm still not sure it's the best approach.

 

 

Well, SP means I can't type as it should be SPD, for Speed.

 

LOS is "Line of Sight"

 

 

 

Martial Arts also need a Weapon Element (but it's only 1 point) to be usable with TK. I think restrainable at -1/2 would be reasonable in requiring the shadows move to their targets (that movement rate needs to be defined), could be grabbed (which I assume would mean Zed can't summon a new one until the old one has been dealt with) and can be destroyed by a 1 BOD hit.  As it's a more limited version of Physical Manifestation, I'd leave it as Restrainable only.

 

But does this meet the original goal?

 

 

The first issue is defining exactly what they can do (which of Zed's abilities they have, at what power level, and which abilities they lack). Feels like you are well on the way there.  These really sound like duplicates or summons, despite the reservations expressed by many posters.

 

 

This sounds like the GM is expecting Summon or Duplication.  Some further items to iron out would be whether he can create all three at once, or only one at a time, and how long he has to wait before re-creating one that has been killed.

 

 

This could mean 1 BOD and no defenses (and could even mean automatons, but that complicates matters further), or it could simply mean a Complication on all Shadows that they are dispelled by taking any STUN or BODY damage, whether it would normally defeat them or not.

 

 

This would just come down to the Summon or Duplication.  Build a Shadow as a separate character. Its point total sets the price of the Summon or Duplication ability. They might have Distinctive Features for their appearance.

 

 

Having no consciousness could mean they are automatons, or could simply be a Complication of the Shadows.  Given that he has complete mental control, and they vanish if he's not around to control them, this could just as easily be ignored.  They do what he wants as long as he's able to express that.  I'd bundle their disappearance if he's KOd and any maximum distance into a Complication for the Shadows themselves.

 

 

The Awareness sounds like a Mind Link, which is not a bad idea for the mental commands either.

 

The swapping Teleport is trickier.  Is it an Instant movement power?   If so, you need enough Teleportation to cover any distance between them, which will be pricy.  This could be mitigated with a short-distance Teleportation that works like normal movement, and either non-combat multiples or a minor Megascale advantage for longer distances, but that would require non-combat movement. This could be limited to require both characters to use their own Teleportation powers simultaneously, rather than building a "usable by others at range" construct.

 

So Step 1 is to design the Shadow Forms themselves.  Let's assume that they come in at 250 points (just guessing - they don't need a lot of Zed's abilities - no point having a lot of defenses, STUN, BOD, etc.; they won't have the Shadow power or as much damage - keep in mind that it's really damage after defenses that matters, so I would not drop them more than 2  or 3 damage classes - 1 damage class is 1d6 normal damage; 3 are 1d6 killing damage).

 

Step 2 is deciding between Summon and Duplication.

 

Summon costs END. The Shadows will show up adjacent to Zed.  The base cost is 1/5 of the Shadow's points (not reduced by complications), so 50 assuming they come in at 250 points.   +5 points doubles the number, so you need +10 to get to 3 (more than two; no more than 4).  All three can be summoned as one full-phase action.  The Shadows arrive stunned, so they will use their first phase recovering.  They would be Slavishly Loyal (a +1 advantage) and will stick around long enough to perform a number of tasks equal to Zed's Ego (1 phase of combat is normally considered 1 task).  That's 120 Active Points and 24 END. 

 

Duplication requires the duplicates to also have the Duplication power, which likely bumps up the total points on the sheet.  Like Summon, the base cost is 1/5 the total points of the Duplicate, and each doubling adds 5 points to that cost. As long as the differences between Zed and the duplicates are limited to having lesser versions of the same abilities, no advantages are required.  Significant differences require an advantage for "Altered Duplicates".  I would allow the reduced abilities and additional Complications without requiring an Altered Duplicate advantage, but your GM may see it differently. Duplication does not cost END, but it takes a half phase to create each duplicate.  You can double the number of duplicates created in an action with a 1/4 advantage, so all three at once requires +1/2. The Duplicate arrives adjacent, and gets no action that segment, but is not Stunned for its first phase (an advantage over Summoned).  Normally, recombining with Duplicates requires a full phase, touching the duplicates, and being at 0 DCV. Advantages can make this easier and/or allow it at range.  Injuries are shared between the base and duplicate characters.  As was noted earlier, dead duplicates are gone (so a Regeneration/resurrection power for the duplicates, using the Altered Duplicates advantages, might be considered).

 

Overall, I think what you are describing fits best as an Amicable Summon.  That will be a pricy ability.  The cost and END could be reduced by taking Charges.  Maybe he can only Summon a few times per day. This does not require Continuing charges as Summon is an instant powers - the shadows would stick around, but can't be re-summoned without using a charge.  You could also consider buying charges in clips of one charge with an "increased reloading time" - for example, if it takes 5 minutes to "change clips" (e.g. 5 minutes of meditation) before the Shadows can be summoned again, that's an additional -1 limitation.  Charges and clips can be used to simulate the ability to summon the shadows only once or twice (clips of 2 charges) in a brief period, like combat, while having more uses daily (the total charges).

 

There are a lot of in-game implications, and quite a bit of judgment required.  Discussing all the details with your GM to ensure you both expect the power to work in the same way, and that the GM is comfortable with the approach taken (e.g. complications versus low defenses versus a limitation on the power; how often he can summon; etc.) is crucial in my opinion.

 

As a GM, the other commitment I would want is that this ability not bog down play - that is, you need to be ready with your and the Shadows' actions when your phase comes up, not hem and haw over multiple possible actions, and "maybe I'll do this but no, wait, I could do that, and let's have that shadow do something else instead of what I first said, and where is my third shadow again".  Often, players get "analysis paralysis" - a commitment to picking an action and moving the game forward (not analyzing every possibility to optimize effectiveness) is a much better simulation of the chaos of second-by-second combat anyway. That depends a lot on your group's play style - some groups are fine with one player's action that takes 2 - 3 seconds in game being a 15 minute round-table discussion of all the options.  Other groups expect a much faster pace of play.

Alright!. Yeah that covers everything about the power 😁. I'll tell my GM all options you've giving me so my GM could Judge what's the better to the game. And yes, he was indeed expecting some kind of summon hehe.

Thank you very much, your help is very much appreciated!. I don't know anyone in the spanish community playing HERO, they're only playing DnD5e, so it's very frustrating 😱.

[unclevlad]

Lemme start with saying, I agree with Hugh;  avoiding Summon or Duplication?  All the attempts to do so have been horrendously contrived, IMO, and none come close to doing what OP wants.

 

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Martial Arts also need a Weapon Element (but it's only 1 point) to be usable with TK.

 

The bigger problem is it requires Fine Manipulation on the TK, which is an expensive adder.  TK attacks are also the most expensive attacks (against standard defenses) in the game...7.5 points per DC.  This also means they're END-intensive. 

 

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The Awareness sounds like a Mind Link, which is not a bad idea for the mental commands either.

 

Yep.  It's clean and simple, and not terribly expensive.  

 

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The swapping Teleport is trickier. 

 

A bit, but not much.  Don't assume great range.  OP already suggested a relatively limited range;  Zed has to be supervising them anyway.  20, 30 meters would be a lot...AND there's a big limitation here anyway, because the teleport is only to fixed locations...the location of the shadows.  Not cheap-cheap, but shouldn't be bad.  Note that the swap part says the shadows ALSO have a teleport power...but that's built into their cost, so generally not bad.

 

The biggest killer with Summon is the Amicable.  If they're built as summoned automata, which is a near-perfect, clean, and simple interpretation, then you must buy them at the full +1 Amicable.  This will also impact the END, since that doubles the active point cost.  OTOH:

--these shadows shouldn't require *that* many points.  If Zed is 400, they're no more than 300, would be my guess...and could well be less.

--if the END cost is a bit much?  1/2 END won't be, since the cost for that is based only on the base cost;  the Amicable doesn't matter.

--there are limitations...requires shadows isn't worth a lot probably, but Concentration, Delayed Phase...you can get that cost down substantially.

 

The biggest issue with Duplication is the core conceptual limitations.  The basis is, you duplicate *you*...so the powers have to be the same.  It's bioduplication, implicitly.  The shadows are constructs;  the skills are the same, but that's it.  So what level of Altered Duplicates are we talking about?  That's gonna basically cost much of what the Amicable costs, if not as much.  (51% of the points spent differently?  +1...same as full control Amicable.)  Duplicates, when they die...as these do...they're gone.  Need Resurrection Regen...which has ambiguous rules, just how long does it take?  Duplicates arrive 1 per half phase, not all at once.  

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

[Well, crud.  There isn't a way to unpost this (upon re-reading it, I found it to contribute nothing useful to the discussion), so I guess we are going to settle on this edited post xhokinf up,the thread.

 

 

Anyway, on this one point, I believe we should agree to disagree, Sir.

 

Now I'm curious where we disagree.  Normally, Restrainable is used for things like wings that can be foiled by an Entangle, a Grab or maybe even confined spaces.  I would envision the Summoning to be possible even if Zed is grabbed or entangled, but the ability to restrain or destroy his constructs, and their need to move from place to place instead of benefiting from the range of TK, seems to make a roughly equal limitation.

 

Telekinesis would definitely be expensive.  The ability seems powerful enough to justify it being expensive.  A Summon or Duplication will not be cheap either, or will have to come with strings attached like unclevlad suggests - reducing Zed's DCV while he summons them, for example. Delayed Phase does not work - Summon already requires a full phase, so the next step is 2 phases, then a full turn.

 

Amicable Slavish Summon, +1, is not a whole lot different from Duplication with fully altered duplicates, also +1, really.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[unclevlad]

Ah...my bad about the Delayed Phase.  You're right, can't use that one.  You can use Full Phase, but now it's taking too long unless you pre-summon, as noted.  OTOH, duplication is slow...1 per half phase...so again, this is pretty much a wash between Duplication and Summon.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Now I'm curious where we disagree. 

 

 

Ah; yes, of course.

 

Sorry:

 

Martial Arts.  Without going any further, we disagree there.

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[Hugh Neilson]

5 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Ah; yes, of course.

 

Sorry:

 

Martial Arts.  Without going any further, we disagree there.

 

 

 

 

Well, the rules require Fine Manipulation (which I forgot) and the Weapon Element.  I don't think we disagree on that.

 

Whether we need all the restrictions on Telekinesis in 6e rather than just allowing Range (and Indirect) on STR is a good question.

 

But I never liked the early edition rule that TK couldn't punch either...

[unclevlad]

Can make the case that the TK restrictions go back to your "worst case analysis" argument.  

 

I'd note, tho, that if you require Indirect and Ranged on STR, it's now MORE expensive...Ranged is +1/2, and Indirect ("Source Point is the Character, path can change with every use" straight from HD) is also +1/2.  With the END implications, too...each 1d6 is 1 END.

[LoneWolf]

Using TK or adding indirect and range to STR still has some potential problems.  The main one is if the character has any unusual attacks they may not be able to use those.  For example, if he has a Dim Mak attack built as a drain, or energy attack like some of the character from a video game the shadow would not be able to make those attacks.   That is why I suggested Stretching.   With stretching any attack the character can make himself the shadow can make.  

Using Foci might also have problems unless the character has multiple copies or is moving them from shadow to shadow.   Stretching is fairly cheap so 20m stretching with Does not Cross Intervening space, Fully Invisible, No Noncombat Stretching, No Velocity Damage and Linked to Images costs 20 points.   
 

[unclevlad]

21 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Using TK or adding indirect and range to STR still has some potential problems.  The main one is if the character has any unusual attacks they may not be able to use those.  For example, if he has a Dim Mak attack built as a drain, or energy attack like some of the character from a video game the shadow would not be able to make those attacks.   That is why I suggested Stretching.   With stretching any attack the character can make himself the shadow can make.  

Using Foci might also have problems unless the character has multiple copies or is moving them from shadow to shadow.   Stretching is fairly cheap so 20m stretching with Does not Cross Intervening space, Fully Invisible, No Noncombat Stretching, No Velocity Damage and Linked to Images costs 20 points.   
 

 

Plus the END considerations, when it's only 1 character making all the attacks, instead of spreading them out over 4 characters.  That'll be the case no matter how you do it.

 

On your Stretching...20m with +1/4 for the Does Not Cross...which I'll grant, is an awesome way to build a melee type...and Fully Invis...is 45.  Linked...nope, you don't get -1/2.  Images is a constant power;  linking to a constant knocks you down to -1/4.  So it's 26.

 

AND, it's 4 END per *use*...not even per phase.  If you're making 3 attacks with it, it's 12 END.  Plus the END for the Images.  Oh, and how are you building those Images?  How much are they costing?

 

Last...review the Multiple Attack rules.  ROUTINELY doing 4 attacks????  You burn the END required for EACH attack...so the Stretching, the STR, the HA or HKA....ALL of it.  And that includes the attacks you can't make because you missed an earlier one.  The penalties are nasty;  you'll absolutely want Defensive Attack from APG, but that's another 5 points for HTH only.  And if you plan to attack 4 targets a lot, that's -6 on ALL the attacks.  Multiple Attack is a maneuver, so you can't use Penalty Skill levels to offset them;  they have to be CSLs.

 

# of hits per round using Mulitple Attack...and I'll be generous and say the chance to hit all the attacks is 13-, which is basically 5/6.  So, individual attacks, 20/6 (the rolls are independent), 3.3 hits per phase.  Multiple attacks:

0 hits...first attack misses.  1/6

1 hit...hit, miss.  5/6 * 1/6 = 5/36

2 hits....hit, hit, miss.  5/6 * 5/6 * 1/6.  25/216.

3 hits...125/1296

4 hits...625/1296.

 

Converting...216/1296 for 0, 180/1296 for 1, 150/1296 for 2, 125 for 3, 625 for 4...1296.  Yep, all cases covered.

 

So, 180 * 1 + 150*2 + 125*3 * 625 *4 == 180 + 300 + 375 + 2500 = 3355 / 1296.  About 2.6 strikes.  So you're losing 0.7 strikes per round...IF you've got 13 or less.  If it's 12-?  Basically 3/4 to hit, so 3 hits with individual attacks.

0 hits = 1/4

1 hit = 3/16

2 hits = 9/64

3 hits= 27/256

4 hits = 81/256

3 + 18 + 81 + 324 = 426/256.  1.66 strikes per round.  So you're down to about HALF.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

On 10/15/2023 at 10:25 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Well, the rules require Fine Manipulation (which I forgot) and the Weapon Element.  I don't think we disagree on that.

 

I don't disagree with you on these points.  In fact, Fine Manipulation is a necessity (I tend to play that Fine Manipulation is part and parcel of TK- mostly because "no fine manipulation" exists as a book-listed Limitation), so I tend to forget that it needs to be thrown in.

 

 

 

On 10/15/2023 at 10:25 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

Whether we need all the restrictions on Telekinesis in 6e rather than just allowing Range (and Indirect) on STR is a good question.

 

Agreed one-hundred percent, which would solve so many problems _and_ reconcile 6e's (and possibly 5e) insistence that it taked 7.5 (or was it 6.5?) AP of TK to make a DC.

 

 

 

On 10/15/2023 at 10:25 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

But I never liked the early edition rule that TK couldn't punch either...

 

_However_, I also completely understand the division of labor set up in the early system- something that the Long Editions seem to make pains to move toward (folding niche powers into larger or 'more primary' powers from which those folded-in powers could be created), right up until they don't do that and swing in the opposite direction ("growth momentum" and "stretching momentum," for example).

 

At any rate, the division of labor specifies that if you want to deliver damage, then you must buy a damage-dealing power.  Thus, a character with TK via--  let's say "wind manipulation"-- cannot use that TK to deliver damage at range; he can use the identical _SFX_, but he must purchase a damage-dealing _mechanic_.  So now Tempest moves from a single power to a multipower containing TK: wind manipulation and Energy Blast (PD): concussive wind blast.

 

At any rate:  I personally believe very much in that division of labor, and believe it to be not just central, but _critical_ to the separation of Mechanics and SFX.  (Which is why I so very much detest things like "Growth momentum" and other assigned SFX)

 

So plain and simple, I have ever since 1e been torn on TK:  I _like_ that it is a nice packaged power that can be defined by any SFX, and that it is (old editions player here) not able to double as a damage dealing power--  _at one point per pip_.

 

_However_, I have also seen since "Day 1" (so to speak) that STR: ranged is the cleaner, simpler build, and more in keeping with breaking rhings to their basic components.  I have a few mentalists who have this very build as STR comes with fine manipulation and the ability to deal damage and that there is a greater cost for the greater utility.

 

_But_...  (And I believe I mentioned that I have been waffling on this for years.  If not , well, now you know) I also like the lesser-expensive version that does not include a means to do damage.  Certainly it could be done with STR (Range), but then the build gets more complicated.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

Stretching is a constant power, so you only have to pay END per phase no matter what how many limbs you are stretching.  In fact, the amount of Stretching represents the total amount the character can stretch so if they are reaching into two locations it has to be divided up between the locations.  So, it is only 4 END not 12.  You also only have to pay END for STR once per round no matter how often it is used.   This is a Ninja so that probably means most of his damage is coming from martial arts so other than STR and Stretching he should not need to use more END for attacking.   So, assuming a 15 STR, that comes out to 5 END total for all his attacks unless he is using a weapon that cost END.  He will need to pay the END for the image or buy them at 0 END.

 

The images will almost need to be used at full so that will cancel out the lesser power being a constant and put the limitation back to -1/2.  You could also take unified power for to reduce the cost further.  Putting the linked power into a multipower would reduce the cost even further.  

 

This was done mostly off the top of my head so it may need to be fined tuned, but the concept is sound.  
 

[unclevlad]

It is not even remotely sensible that a multiple attack with a blast, must spend END for each blast, whereas multiple punches don't.  It's flat out broken.

 

And it's WRONG.

 

6E1 41:

 

Quote

For example, suppose a character has STR 50. If he uses Casual STR (see 6E1 131) to break out of a Grab, then uses STR to punch an enemy for 10d6 damage in that same Phase, he only pays 5 END, even though he’s used his STR in two different ways that Phase. However, this rule does not apply to situations or game elements that allow a character to make two or more STR-based attacks in a Phase (such as an Autofire HA, or the Multiple Attack Combat Maneuver). In that case, the character has to pay END for his STR once for each attack.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Same with Stretching, IMO.  The logic for STR, TK, and Stretching should be the same...you can use it multiple ways;  generally you only spend END once.  But NOT with Multiple Attack or the like.  Note that TK is also a Constant, yet you still pay full END for each attack you make with it.  6E2 73:

 

Quote

A character making a Multiple Attack must expend END or Charges for each attack made

 

The general metarule that you can't get something for nothing, say that every factor that would apply to the END on a single attack, applies to every attack you make.  No breaks, no discounts.  The STR statement reinforces that.

 

Also, the rule on Linked is that the *greater* power is Constant or in use.  The fact that they have to be used at full is not relevant.  Sure, you could take Unified Power...but now you're exposing yourself to one Drain taking the entire power construct down.