Making shadow clone power

[migo2154]

Hello everyone!

I'm about to play a super hero campaign, so for this game i want to play a ninja, and, of all ninjas i know of, there's one i'm very interested to play: Zed.

For those that hasn't player LoL (good for you, never try play that sh... game), Zed is a ninja inspired in Shredder (The main Villain of Ninja Turtless).

He's a martial artist with very high combat skills, very good stealth, and is a expert in closed and ranged combat using all kinds of martial weapons. But, also, he has a special ability... He can control shadows. That is, a special power that allows him to create a couple of shadowed versions of himself, that he can use to make some kind of ninja tricks... And, since i want to play a Hero version of Zed, i'm, of course, trying to imitate this ability. There are some rules for these shadows:

- Zed can use more than one shadow simultaneously (Can be up to three, that's what my GM said).
- Shadows can die with every damage they receive (They simply have 1 hp and no defense).
- Shadows can imitate every of the Zed's abilitys, except the shadow creation power.
- Sadows only can act by zed's mental orders, they can't act at their own because they don't have conscience.
- If Zed falls unconscious, all shadows disappear.
- Zed can swap position with any shadow, even if zed is entangled, as long as zed is not stunned or inconscious. Zed is also aware of the location of every one of his shadows.
- There could be a maximun distance between zed and his shadows until they automatically dissapear, i think on something like less than 500m.
- Shadows have the very same weapons that zed currently has, and they can use it as effectively as Zed can, but they probably cause less damage than Zed.
- Shadows are physically equals to Zed, but with a shadow translucid appareance, because they're made of dark martial arts powers or something like that.

In order to make that power, i have some ideas, but im very confused right now, specially with the limitations that i must use with them, that's why i call for help x.x.

- Im thinking in make it as a invocation with the same skills and combat stats than zed, but with 1body, 1 stun, no defenses, and less DC on their attack damages. Also, make them with limitations like "slavery" (because they cannot think by they own).
- The swap ability is very confusing for me, but im think in some kind of mental link with the shadows, and a teleport power with the limitation (Only to swap position with linked shadows).
- Idk if i can make the swap power as a defensive ability, or if i can buy an alternative speed with the limitation (Only to abort to swap with shadows).
- The campaign level is about 400 character points.

What do you think about that?, There's some things that im not very familiar with, so i'm very interested in know your opinions.

Good day to all! ^ ^

[Doc Democracy]

This looks like an obvious application for duplication.  I have real problems with duplication characters.  Why?  Because it allows one player to dominate a game.  If there are four players with a character each, they all get 5 or 6 actions per round.  If one If those players can duplicate into four, that player gets 20 to 24 actions per round, more than the rest of the group put together.

 

As such, if I was given such a character, I would be looking at a character with perhaps 5 SPD and +3 SPD (physical manifestation) and a naked advantage to apply indirect to physical skills (from any of the shadows created when the SPD is activated).  The swapping is, to me, effectively a limited teleport, only to the locations of the Shadows.

 

The big thing for me would be what happens when a shadow us destroyed, does it mean that a new shadow can peel off and can only move at the movement rate of the core character?

 

This means the player can move character and shadows but he gets only 8 attacks a round, stopping him dominating stuff.  Attacks can come from player or any shadow, the player can instantly move to where a shadow is. Then you can ignore all the issues with slavery etc.

 

Doc

[Duke Bushido]

7 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

This looks like an obvious application for duplication.  I have real problems with duplication characters.  Why?  Because it allows one player to dominate a game. 

 

 

Creative uses of Indirect can achieve two duplicates.

 

 

[steriaca]

I would use Summon as opposed to a straight duplication. If a duplicate dies you can never get it back. While summon allows you to regain them when they die.

 

Duplication can also be a special effect of various other powers (stretching, extra limbs, area of effect physical Blast, ect).

[LoneWolf]

This seems more like a suite of powers instead of a single power. I would probably start with images as the base power and link abilities to the image powers. Teleport will allow you to swap places with the shadows. Stretching with the advantages Does Not Cross Intervening Space and Invisible power effects will allow you to attack through the shadows.  Using Indirect works too, but you may need to buy ranged on some powers.  This will increase the active cost of all your powers which could be a problem is you have any active point campaign limitations.

 

You would not be able to attack more times than you can without using the shadows except if you used the multiple attack maneuver.  In all honesty this is probably better for the game.  Allowing a character to attack more often than their SPD allows with no drawbacks is a bad idea.   
 

[dmjalund]

if you have duplication, give the duplicates Resurrective Healing, to indicate that dead dupes can come back out of combat.

[unclevlad]

Feels more like Summon, but the headache there is how expensive it'd be...because you'd have to buy Amicable.  OTOH, you don't have to pay for Altered Duplicates...and you can summon 3 at once.  For Duplication, you'd need Rapid Dup.  Plus, there's a lot more quirks to Duplication;  Hero's basis is actually biological duplicates, so swapping it over to a non-biological version is always a pain.

 

I'm thinking...reserve 75 or so points, for now, for the shadow ninja power.  Build Zed.  Then build the duplicates;  one thing we KNOW, is they're going to be notably cheaper because they're so easy to trash.  Note that they won't have any non-combat, non-ninja skills...I'd keep Stealth, but I'd probably not carry over Lockpicking or Security Systems, for example.  So, what kinda point totals are we getting for these shadow versions?  It might still be OK, even paying for that painful +1 for Amicable.  (And also note that you'll get some break from the shadows limitation.)

 

Quick thoughts...

--500m isn't close for something like this, particularly given that the main char has to give orders.  For there to be a limitation here, it'd have to be MUCH less.

--if main falls unconscious, summons disappear...this should be covered...?  I can't find it quickly scanning through Summon.  

--swap positions with any shadow is kinda tricky;  for Zed, it's probably Teleport, only to Fixed Location (current location of a shadow ninja);  for the shadow ninja, it'd be Teleport, only to where Zed was, uncontrolled, trigger.

--shadows can duplicate every one of Zed's abilities...I wouldn't lock that in stone, but I don't know how much these are intended to be used outside combat, and in what contexts...

[Duke Bushido]

Indirect TK, and an indirect PD-based ranged attack.  SFX is "a shadow guy did it"

 

Get just a little bit loose with the MPA rules- not much, but a little.

 

T-port., SFX is "swapped with a shadow guy."

 

This works almost exclusively becauae of the stipulation that one hit tales them out: reasonable by attacking the source.  Targets get a PER roll to see the source- it's a shadow guy.

 

There's more, but I think we can see the drift of this:

 

Why pay for duplicates or summoned characters who, from the description, are quite literally SFX.  If they can wrestle, get some TK.  However, if one hit dismises them, they arent going to wrestle particularly well...

 

Still, from what we have been given, spending pointa to create these guys is, thus far at least, some pretty expensive over-thinking.

 

 

[unclevlad]

How are you going to execute multiple attacks with a ranged attack?  These are also independent attacks;  doesn't matter how many miss, you get all 4.  If you're going with Multiple Attack...soon as one misses, that's it.

 

I'll give one example of their use...sic all 3 on a single foe.  He did say they have a high CV.  Give them Teamwork...and all of them play wolfpack tactics.  The one who gets targeted...dodges.  The other 2 attack.  Or keep them near you.  You get engaged?  If your opponent hasn't invested heavily into a multiple attack regimen, he's got problems.  Yeah, the fact that they're SO easy to eliminate is a problem, and at the table, might need addressing...but they're not useless.  If they've got ranged weapons as well as melee?  You've got volley fire.  

 

To the OP:  when they're Summoned critters, you can make them Automata.  This answers your mindless, don't care about them getting popped like a balloon, etc.  It does requite the full +1 Amicable, tho.

[migo2154]

9 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

This looks like an obvious application for duplication.  I have real problems with duplication characters.  Why?  Because it allows one player to dominate a game.  If there are four players with a character each, they all get 5 or 6 actions per round.  If one If those players can duplicate into four, that player gets 20 to 24 actions per round, more than the rest of the group put together.

 

As such, if I was given such a character, I would be looking at a character with perhaps 5 SPD and +3 SPD (physical manifestation) and a naked advantage to apply indirect to physical skills (from any of the shadows created when the SPD is activated).  The swapping is, to me, effectively a limited teleport, only to the locations of the Shadows.

 

The big thing for me would be what happens when a shadow us destroyed, does it mean that a new shadow can peel off and can only move at the movement rate of the core character?

 

This means the player can move character and shadows but he gets only 8 attacks a round, stopping him dominating stuff.  Attacks can come from player or any shadow, the player can instantly move to where a shadow is. Then you can ignore all the issues with slavery etc.

 

Doc

Yeah, idk if is a good idea give shadows all that actions, maybe they could have less spd than zed. And, when a shadow dies, zed must spend his action to re-summon them again, they cannot reappear automatically.

 

 

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

--500m isn't close for something like this, particularly given that the main char has to give orders.  For there to be a limitation here, it'd have to be MUCH less.

Ok, reduce the maximun range sounds correct, probably the best possible range could be 80-100m?.

 

 

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

--if main falls unconscious, summons disappear...this should be covered...?  I can't find it quickly scanning through Summon.  

--swap positions with any shadow is kinda tricky;  for Zed, it's probably Teleport, only to Fixed Location (current location of a shadow ninja);  for the shadow ninja, it'd be Teleport, only to where Zed was, uncontrolled, trigger.

--shadows can duplicate every one of Zed's abilities...I wouldn't lock that in stone, but I don't know how much these are intended to be used outside combat, and in what contexts...

Summons probably don't have to dissapear if zed is unconscious, but they cannot act, because they depends of Zed's orders to act.

Outside combat, maybe i could try to use shadows to spy, using stealth or something like that. In this way, shadows could communicate mentally with zed to report things (So the link could be used for that kind of situations), im not sure if i can share vision with shadows too... Maybe that can be so much?. But the summons surely will not have all zed's skills, so they cannot do things like lockepicking, or talk. They're more like automatons that only can follow orders while summoned. They could have a time limit too, maybe 1 hour or so...

 

 

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Feels more like Summon, but the headache there is how expensive it'd be...because you'd have to buy Amicable.  OTOH, you don't have to pay for Altered Duplicates...and you can summon 3 at once.  For Duplication, you'd need Rapid Dup.  Plus, there's a lot more quirks to Duplication;  Hero's basis is actually biological duplicates, so swapping it over to a non-biological version is always a pain.

 

I'm thinking...reserve 75 or so points, for now, for the shadow ninja power.  Build Zed.  Then build the duplicates;  one thing we KNOW, is they're going to be notably cheaper because they're so easy to trash.  Note that they won't have any non-combat, non-ninja skills...I'd keep Stealth, but I'd probably not carry over Lockpicking or Security Systems, for example.  So, what kinda point totals are we getting for these shadow versions?  It might still be OK, even paying for that painful +1 for Amicable.  (And also note that you'll get some break from the shadows limitation.)

 

I think that summon is the best option for me, although duplication sounds good too, i'm not sure about how to make them in that way x'D.

 

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

Indirect TK, and an indirect PD-based ranged attack.  SFX is "a shadow guy did it"

 

Get just a little bit loose with the MPA rules- not much, but a little.

 

T-port., SFX is "swapped with a shadow guy."

 

This works almost exclusively becauae of the stipulation that one hit tales them out: reasonable by attacking the source.  Targets get a PER roll to see the source- it's a shadow guy.

 

There's more, but I think we can see the drift of this:

 

Why pay for duplicates or summoned characters who, from the description, are quite literally SFX.  If they can wrestle, get some TK.  However, if one hit dismises them, they arent going to wrestle particularly well...

 

Still, from what we have been given, spending pointa to create these guys is, thus far at least, some pretty expensive over-thinking.

 

 

Umm, yeah, maybe... But in that case, what kind of actions can i make with the shadows if they're not builded as summons?. For example, a shadow could walk by they own, attack, climb structures, spy... All of these by Zed's orders, because they cannot think by they own.

Edited October 12, 2023 by migo2154

[migo2154]

14 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

How are you going to execute multiple attacks with a ranged attack?  These are also independent attacks;  doesn't matter how many miss, you get all 4.  If you're going with Multiple Attack...soon as one misses, that's it.

 

I'll give one example of their use...sic all 3 on a single foe.  He did say they have a high CV.  Give them Teamwork...and all of them play wolfpack tactics.  The one who gets targeted...dodges.  The other 2 attack.  Or keep them near you.  You get engaged?  If your opponent hasn't invested heavily into a multiple attack regimen, he's got problems.  Yeah, the fact that they're SO easy to eliminate is a problem, and at the table, might need addressing...but they're not useless.  If they've got ranged weapons as well as melee?  You've got volley fire.  

 

To the OP:  when they're Summoned critters, you can make them Automata.  This answers your mindless, don't care about them getting popped like a balloon, etc.  It does requite the full +1 Amicable, tho.

 

 Yeah, in this case, all shadows could make attacks like  "Throwing shurikens" at range. They could do melee attacks too, using swords and so. The main idea is to have a group of automatons that follow my orders and can coordinate attacks, and in the same time, they could act as defensive mechanism due to the swap ability, but they must be fragile, so they can be easily killed. Zed is, indeed, a fragile character too, so he depends of constantly evade attacks, that's more or less the kind of gameplay that i'm looking for.

[LoneWolf]

Duplication or Summons is not a good fit because the shadows do not seem to be independent sentient creatures; they seem to be more of an extension of the character.  Basically, they allow the character to make his normal attacks from several different locations.  The original poster also stated he wants to play a Ninja.  Most Ninja use martial arts and some weapons to attack.  Stretching allows you to do attack from different locations.   

 

Start with Images to sight with a -5 to perception roll with the limitations only to create shadows duplicates, Limited Range, Physical Manifestation and Unified for 9 points.  

 

Add 15M Stretching with the advantages Fully Invisible and Does Not Cross Intervening Space and the limitations No Velocity Damage and No Noncombat Stretching, Unified Power, Linked to Images for 17 points.  

 

Add 15M teleport with Position shift, No Noncombat movement, Unified Power and linked to images for 10 points.

 

For 36 points the character can create one or more shadow duplicates within 15M and attack through them He can also use teleport to swap places with his duplicates.   
 

Edited October 12, 2023 by LoneWolf

[unclevlad]

Huh?  Why do you think a Summon can't be an automaton?  What's a zombie, which is one of the specific examples?  What does a gadget-type summon?  

 

 

[LoneWolf]

Sentient was probably a bad choice of words.  I should have just said independent and left it at that. I envision a shadow clone more as an extension of the character than a separate creature.   This is based on the fact the clones can only act by the characters mental orders and cannot act on their own.  It also prevents the clones from being mind controlled. 

[Doc Democracy]

10 hours ago, migo2154 said:

Umm, yeah, maybe... But in that case, what kind of actions can i make with the shadows if they're not builded as summons?. For example, a shadow could walk by they own, attack, climb structures, spy... All of these by Zed's orders, because they cannot think by they own.

 

Me, Duke and LoneWolf are probably saying that the shadows are essentially SFX of other powers, they exist in the world and the advantages they provide can be removed by opponents by destroying the shadow, which must then be recreated by Zed.

 

Because they are SFX, they are extensions of Zed and can do anything you pay for Zed to do.

 

Essentially, the shadows are created and move away from Zed at whatever pace Zed can move.  They then become floating points from Zed to attack from, perceive from, instantly change places with, etc.

 

All you need to do is pay for those abilities.  So, attacking and carrying out tasks, those come using indirect, or stretching (does not pass through intervening space).  Swapping places is teleport, only to specific floating locations (the shadows). Spying would be clairsentience, only from those same locations.

 

I suggested that, on his own, Zed has SPD 5, and that increases when he creates shadows, representing an ability to do more when shadows are active.  If you stuck with RAW rules about SPD changes, that could get tedious, I would get a little loose with it.  If you were moving from SPD 5 to SPD 8, your phases go from 3,5,8,10,12 to 2,3,5,6,8,9,11,12.  I would suggest that you allocate phases 2, 6 and 11 to the existence of shadows and act on 3,5,8,9,12 in their absence.  If it takes an action to create a shadow, Zed might spend segment 12 in combat creating a shadow, segment 2 creating another, segment three creating another, so he would be delayed until at least segment 5 in acting, if he wanted to be fully up to speed.  If he chose to work with fewer shadows and different SPDs then you could work with the GM on what segments your phases would be, I dislike the RAW for this.

 

Duke and LoneWolf gave steered clear of this and suggested the shadows extend his ability to act in a round but not how often he acts (truly, more sensible but leaves out (for me) the feeling that he can do MORE per round).

 

It is a halfway house to using summons and duplication.

 

Doc

Edited October 12, 2023 by Doc Democracy

[Duke Bushido]

Doc:

 

For what it is worth, I suggested "loosening the MPA rules;"  that was intended to allow a feeling of more per round-  such that each "clone' could attack separate targets without penalty (or perhaps allow the purchase of skill levels to offset this penalty.

 

However, buying SPD +1 as a power (an END-costing Persistant power) with the SFX of "shadow guys running around" would give a nice cleanliness to their popping in and out- might even include a limitation that the SPD can be forcibly shut down if both shadow guys are attacked in the same phase, etc.

 

There is more you can do, but to be honest, as this was specified as a player character, I was trying to avoid an excess of "doing way more" for the same reason you (and I ) don't really like Duplication for Pcs: too easy to dominate the game, even id being careful not to.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[migo2154]

19 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Duplication or Summons is not a good fit because the shadows do not seem to be independent sentient creatures; they seem to be more of an extension of the character.  Basically, they allow the character to make his normal attacks from several different locations.  The original poster also stated he wants to play a Ninja.  Most Ninja use martial arts and some weapons to attack.  Stretching allows you to do attack from different locations.   

 

Start with Images to sight with a -5 to perception roll with the limitations only to create shadows duplicates, Limited Range, Physical Manifestation and Unified for 9 points.  

 

Add 15M Stretching with the advantages Fully Invisible and Does Not Cross Intervening Space and the limitations No Velocity Damage and No Noncombat Stretching, Unified Power, Linked to Images for 17 points.  

 

Add 15M teleport with Position shift, No Noncombat movement, Unified Power and linked to images for 10 points.

 

For 36 points the character can create one or more shadow duplicates within 15M and attack through them He can also use teleport to swap places with his duplicates.   
 

Oh i see. And yes, Shadows are not independent creatures, but extensions of Zed that can do everything he does.

 

 

18 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Sentient was probably a bad choice of words.  I should have just said independent and left it at that. I envision a shadow clone more as an extension of the character than a separate creature.   This is based on the fact the clones can only act by the characters mental orders and cannot act on their own.  It also prevents the clones from being mind controlled. 

That's also true. Shadows cannot be mindcontrolled because they're not creatures, they're most like a "ki-based" copies of Zed.

 

 

14 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Me, Duke and LoneWolf are probably saying that the shadows are essentially SFX of other powers, they exist in the world and the advantages they provide can be removed by opponents by destroying the shadow, which must then be recreated by Zed.

 

Because they are SFX, they are extensions of Zed and can do anything you pay for Zed to do.

 

Essentially, the shadows are created and move away from Zed at whatever pace Zed can move.  They then become floating points from Zed to attack from, perceive from, instantly change places with, etc.

 

All you need to do is pay for those abilities.  So, attacking and carrying out tasks, those come using indirect, or stretching (does not pass through intervening space).  Swapping places is teleport, only to specific floating locations (the shadows). Spying would be clairsentience, only from those same locations.

 

I suggested that, on his own, Zed has SPD 5, and that increases when he creates shadows, representing an ability to do more when shadows are active.  If you stuck with RAW rules about SPD changes, that could get tedious, I would get a little loose with it.  If you were moving from SPD 5 to SPD 8, your phases go from 3,5,8,10,12 to 2,3,5,6,8,9,11,12.  I would suggest that you allocate phases 2, 6 and 11 to the existence of shadows and act on 3,5,8,9,12 in their absence.  If it takes an action to create a shadow, Zed might spend segment 12 in combat creating a shadow, segment 2 creating another, segment three creating another, so he would be delayed until at least segment 5 in acting, if he wanted to be fully up to speed.  If he chose to work with fewer shadows and different SPDs then you could work with the GM on what segments your phases would be, I dislike the RAW for this.

 

Duke and LoneWolf gave steered clear of this and suggested the shadows extend his ability to act in a round but not how often he acts (truly, more sensible but leaves out (for me) the feeling that he can do MORE per round).

 

It is a halfway house to using summons and duplication.

 

Doc

Ok, i get it now. So that means Shadows are simply a roleplay excuse to make those powers, and a way to replicate Zed's abilities as if they're another copies of him. But in this case, aren't shadows a kind of fragile focus for all powers or actions? or the focus limitation is not necessary for those powers?.

Another question, could be possible to have a separated speed chart for my shadows?, something like: A SPD 5 Speed chart for zed, and a SPD 3 Chart to make the shadows actions when they are summoned?. I'm not sure if this could be possible... Maybe i could talk it with my GM about it.

 

 

8 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Doc:

 

For what it is worth, I suggested "loosening the MPA rules;"  that was intended to allow a feeling of more per round-  such that each "clone' could attack separate targets without penalty (or perhaps allow the purchase of skill levels to offset this penalty.

 

However, buying SPD +1 as a power (an END-costing Persistant power) with the SFX of "shadow guys running around" would give a nice cleanliness to their popping in and out- might even include a limitation that the SPD can be forcibly shut down if both shadow guys are attacked in the same phase, etc.

 

There is more you can do, but to be honest, as this was specified as a player character, I was trying to avoid an excess of "doing way more" for the same reason Doc (and I ) don't really like Duplication for Pcs: too easy to dominate the game, even id being careful not to.

I see. I'm agree to make Zed's powers in the less game-breaking way possible.

[Doc Democracy]

7 hours ago, migo2154 said:

Another question, could be possible to have a separated speed chart for my shadows?, something like: A SPD 5 Speed chart for zed, and a SPD 3 Chart to make the shadows actions when they are summoned?. I'm not sure if this could be possible... Maybe i could talk it with my GM about it.

 

You could agree anything with the GM that suits you both. As a GM, I would be content with two separate SPD tracks,  one for ZED hitting the usual SPD 5 segments and one for the shadows on a SPD 3 track. With you paying for 5 SPD at full price and an additional 3 with some kind of limitation.

 

The big question are how does it work when the SPD changes because a shadow is created or a shadow is destroyed.  What happens, in your system, when shadows and ZED are supposed to move at the same time? There is a big advantage in being able to act twice in one segment, that might be a 0 limitation taken on the 3 SPD, cannot act in same segment as ZED.

 

Doc

[migo2154]

5 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

You could agree anything with the GM that suits you both. As a GM, I would be content with two separate SPD tracks,  one for ZED hitting the usual SPD 5 segments and one for the shadows on a SPD 3 track. With you paying for 5 SPD at full price and an additional 3 with some kind of limitation.

 

The big question are how does it work when the SPD changes because a shadow is created or a shadow is destroyed.  What happens, in your system, when shadows and ZED are supposed to move at the same time? There is a big advantage in being able to act twice in one segment, that might be a 0 limitation taken on the 3 SPD, cannot act in same segment as ZED.

 

Doc

Got it, i'll talk with my GM about it, Thank you all! ^ ^

[LoneWolf]

I am not a big fan of limited SPD or even supper high SPD’s.  

 

Having limitations on SPD often cause a lot of problems in the game.  If the limitation is something that is constant like only in Hero ID or through a focus inaccessible focus it might be ok.  But if it is anything that can change in or varies in combat it is usually a pain. What happens when you cancel a phase to do something that is affected by the limitation?  In this case what happens to the phases your shadow goes in when you cancel to an action you want the character to do?  Are the phases the shadows go in lost?  If you want one of your shadows to cancel does that mean you lose all phases until the shadow goes?  Is it ok to attack all out in phase 12 Cancel your 3 to a defensive action in phase 1 and in phase 2 have your shadow make an all-out attack?  If you can do that what is your DCV those phases?  As a GM I will veto this type of power because it complicates thing too much and focuses too much of the game on a single player.

 

That is also the reason I really dislike extremely high SPD characters.  Having lots of actions in a turn sounds great but it also creates a lot of problems.  When a character can effectively act a lot more than any other character, that character hogs the spotlight too much.  If the character does not have good defenses and is canceling a lot to defensive actions, it is not so bad.  But a character that attacks significantly more often than the rest of the character is hogging the spotlight.  This often leads to SPD inflation where all the characters end up buying up their SPD.  When that happens, everyone gets punished.

 

High also can also mean your END usage go up and can become a problem.  Don’t forget that you have to pay END every phase for a lot of powers.  That extra 3 SPD could increase your END per turn significantly if you are moving and attacking on each phase.  This means you have to spend more points on REC and END or purchase reduced END on all your powers or you end up becoming exhausted too soon. 
 

[Doc Democracy]

LoneWolf is not wrong on any of what he says but a lot of this can be worked out in advance - these are all the things you and teh GM should have thrashed out ahead of time. 

 

As he said, if you use SPD changing RAW, it is a huge pain in the backside.  If you dont then you need to consider what is going on.  I had not thought about a shadow using a combat manouevre that changes the OCV or DCV, personally, the reason I did it the way I suggested is because, unless there is something that says otherwise, all the actions are, in game machanics done by ZED, they might just appear to be coming from the shadows and the shadows wil have a physical presence that opponents can interact with and interfere with your powers.

 

@LoneWolf would you agree that a SPD 8 character is probably less of a time hog than a character with three duplicates (all SPD 5) or three summoned creatures (all SPD 5)??  Do you veto those inds of characters because they also focus too much of the game on a single player?

 

My suggestions on SPD and how it changes were supposed to answer some of the concerns you might have.  @migo2154 had a different take that I would accept - the shadows go on SPD 3 timings but if that coincides with a phase for ZED they go on the phase after, which would mean 3,4,5,8,9,10,11,12.  Personally I would prefer the SPD 8 segments 2,3,5,6,8,9,11,12 with phases 3,6 and 9 being reserved for shadow segments.  Zed would get segment 3 if at least one shadow was present, segment 6 if at least two shadows were present on that segment, and segment 9 if at least three shadows were present at that time.  No variations.  It would mean he had an odd 5 phase turn of segments 2,5,8,11 and 12 as opposed to 3,5,8,10 and 12 but he is a SPD 8 character after all.

 

I would consider SPD 8 fine if other characters were at SPDs of 5 and 6, would drop to 7 if other characters were 4 and 5 and possibly go up to nice if other characters had higher SPDs.  As you say, he will have to finance that SPD in terms of END and REC.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Doc Democracy

[LoneWolf]

In the games I run we keep SPD down and adjust the SPDS of published characters as well.  In our campaigns a 6 or higher is what a full speedster is likely to have.   5 SPD is unusual, so 4 SPD is considered average for a PC.   As long as everyone respects this the campaign works fairly well.  Once we explain that if the players characters buy to high SPD all of the NPC’s will have their SPD adjusted people are usually ok with it.

 

I do agree that the 8 SPD is better than a 5 with summons or duplicates.  I view all of those builds as potently problematic and would be inclined to veto all of them.  I don’t really see the need to allow more actions because of the shadow clones.  From what the original post stated directing the shadow clone took some effort.  Considering the shadows are based on images you can have them appear to move as a zero-phase action.  Using any of the other powers is going to require Zed to spend an action anyways.   Activating a stretching is a zero-phase action so Zed can simply attack through any of the shadows or his own location anytime he wants.  

 

I would simply buy Zed’s SPD to an appropriate level and not worry about the origin of the attack.  Allow Zed to attack or teleport to any location as he wants.  That will actually give Zed more tactical options. Buying extra SPD and limiting Zed to actions to only specific locations does not gain him anything and pointlessly complicates the character.   

Edited October 13, 2023 by LoneWolf

[Doc Democracy]

12 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

I would simply buy Zed’s SPD to an appropriate level and not worry about the origin of the attack.  Allow Zed to attack or teleport to any location as he wants.  That will actually give Zed more tactical options. Buying extra SPD and limiting Zed to actions to only specific locations does not gain him anything and pointlessly complicates the character.   

 

I usually work overall characters so it is hard to say about an single element but I am usually fine with SPD being 2 higher than the average if that is the character's main schtick.  It would depend on hw it all worked in with everything else. 

 

Having those other locations is indeed useful as you can use one to simply attack rather than having to move and attack or having range modifiers.  It does however provide some colour and allows opponents to work on limiting that advantage by taing out shadows.  For me it adds to, rather than degrades, the tactical nature of combats (which is often, but not always, a good thing).  It also adds to the character, it is not simply another ranged attack, it has quite specific differences.  It obviously limits the use of teleport and melee attacks but that can result in some point savings.

 

As for complicating things, my friends never say that I err on the side of simlicity if complex is more fun! 🙂  I guess it comes down to those playing (and GMing) about that metric.

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

45 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

In the games I run we keep SPD down and adjust the SPDS of published characters as well.  In our campaigns a 6 or higher is what a full speedster is likely to have.   5 SPD is unusual, so 4 SPD is considered average for a PC.   As long as everyone respects this the campaign works fairly well.  Once we explain that if the players characters buy to high SPD all of the NPC’s will have their SPD adjusted people are usually ok with it.

 

I would say, in this game I might pitch ZED as SPD 3 with +3 for the shadows.  It probably works better with the SPD chart.  He would have phases on 2,4,6,8,10,12.  The Shadows would get phases 2,6 and 10.  Without them ZED moves on 4,8 and 12.

 

Every character needs to adapt to its standards.

[Grailknight]

I think I've figured a way to do this, but it's really complicated and expensive.

 

Zed chould buy all the Powers that the Shadow Clones will have access to first. Then buy Auto-fire and Indirect on all of them as Naked Advantages and add a Custom Limitation based off Retrainable to allow for them being destructible and perhaps an Extra Time to manifest them. I think that covers everything, but I wouldn't want to have to write this up.

 

Or with GM permission, he could make use of the 5-point doubling rule to make copies of a Multipower bought through a Focus and just have them be Fragile.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Grailknight