Create Area Full Of Water

[GDShore]

Mr. Taylor I do mean to question your estimate  on the nature of the body of water being but would like to understand your reasoning. On page 112 of Basic Rules 6E. the table on damaging things first column has "stone (per hex) at 19 points of body. Water is considerably less dense than stone and over the same volume would not have placed it at more than 1/2 the body of stone, if that high.

[Gauntlet]

Well Transform will not work as to make enough water to fill a 4 hex radius area for 5th edition you would need to transform 753 BODY of air to make the water which would take a 251d6 Transform which would cost 3765 points. So to make an area of water that is a 4 hex radius you cannot utilize transform as I don't think even someone at the power level of Dr. Destroyer could do that. In 5th edition I believe that Change Environment would be the best way to do it, but I cannot figure out how to get it to do the same thing as actual water.

 

Now you might say that the spell could be less dice and they would just have to do it more than once, but considering it is an attack spell if you have to do it for multiple phases it kinda makes it worthless.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Gauntlet

[Doc Democracy]

Going to jump the shark....

 

I propose Summon.  Create the most passive, non aggressive Water Elemental.  It appears, goes to where you want it and stays there.  All it has is size.  Should be pretty cheap....

 

🙂

 

Doc

[LoneWolf]

What about breaking apart dirt, is that destroyed? It can also be returned to the original state.  In a way nothing is actually destroyed, all damage involves changing the state of things. Changing things back to their original state may be more difficult for some substances, but that does not change the fact it was changed in the first place. 

 

In game terms anything that physically exists and something that do not have BODY. 

[DShomshak]

22 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

For the red sea style thing, I might be inclined to use tunnelling where the "tunnel" remains intact. If the radius of the tunnel is enough, you get to the surface, or you might give the headroom for free.

 

Depends on what additional use you think the character might make of having a u-pipe rather than a pipe.

Hm. 5th and 6th editions explicitly say that Tunneling does not work through air or liquids.: it "only works on solid substances, such as soil." CC, with its abbreviated descriptions, does not include that specification. But I'm leery of taking that as a "rules change."

 

Sigh. A disadvantage of knowing multiple iterations of the system. (Or a Complication, if you prefer. )

 

Dean Shomshak

[GDShore]

Yesterday I said I had no idea where to start looking where to find the density of various objects, and I did not so I called a friend who is a geologist. From him I received the following. Stone, if we assume that it is limestone, sandstone or granite have remarkably similar density. As such the mass at a cubic meter would only vary between 2700 and 2800 kg. Water at the same mass (distilled) is 998 kg. and seawater is 1030 kg. This is 36% and 38% of the density of stone, (body of 19 per hex) and I think would then equate to a body of 7 points. The weight of water for a hex which is approximately 3.5 cubic meters would be 3500 kg. and for 4 hex's - 14000 kg. The amount of air that would have to be processed to extract that much water (air is 1.229 kg. per cubic meter) is extreme water vapor varies between .2 to 4% of the atmosphere (the least amount is found at the poles and the largest at hot tropical zones). If you were to attempt this at one of the poles you would need to process 1,428,571 cubic meters of atmosphere while in a tropical jungle only 71,429 cubic meters. and assuming approximately 2% over North America 142,392 cubic meters. That is a lot of air to be squeezed and wrung out to fill one hex, and four times that to fill four. Gauntlet your figures while massive might still be a little short, as an attack spell fizzelll, as a trap spell with a one way permeable barrier, in but not out, with a top, maybe. I tried building it in a number of different ways, but the numbers hurt my head so I stopped. Good luck to someone. 

[DShomshak]

21 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The trick is to remember that area effect applies the same effect to the entire area, so you don't have to move all of the water, just however much 2 cubic meters of water weighs (2000 kg, I believe).  That's a pretty hefty telekinesis still (around 32 STR) and you just apply it to an area effect line of the chosen size.  Each and every 2m area in that line has 32 STR applied to it to push it to the side and hold it there.

Every cubic meter of water weighs 1000 kg, so a 2m x 2m x 2m cube (the base volume for AoE (Any Area) is 8000 kg, which requires 42 STR.

 

However, the 6e text of Telekinesis seems to forbid applying that STR per unit volume of a larger AoE. Page 296:

Quote

Area Of Effect: If a character has Area Of Effect Telekinesis, generally you should calculate the amount he can lift over the overall area. For example, if a character with Telekinesis (60 STR), Area Of Effect (18m Radius) tries to telekinetically scoop up some sand, the weight of sand he picks up depends on his telekinetic STR -- he picks up 100 tons of sand, not 100 tons per 100 tons per 1m radius or what have you -- and the sand comes more or less equally from all the affected are.

CC leaves out that text, but once again I am hesitant to consider that a "rule change" that tacitly endorses mass per area rather than mass distributed over an area.

 

It may be moot. 42 STR per 2m cube doesn't allow a very large Area Of Effect Advantage. I actually get a larger volume of water just using 67 STR TK.

 

EDIT: If the calculation is per cubic meter instead of per 2m cube (27 STR TK, or 40 base points) I get  +1 1/2 Advantage. Uisng Any Area but Fixed Shape, I can have a passage through the water that's 2m wide, 4m tall (give some head room) and 64 m long. 208 feet is a little more impressive, though it's still not enough to let Brother Bone open a passage across, say, the Hudson River.

 

Dean Shomshak

Edited December 5, 2023 by DShomshak

[Christopher R Taylor]

God had a lot of points in TK to get the red sea to part; at the narrowest area where the Hebrews are said to have crossed is about 12 to 20 miles (19 to 32 km). Its 230 feet (about 37m) deep.  That's a pretty enormous AE (there is a point at which the area effect becomes cheaper than buying just STR because of doubling).

 

Thanks for the correction, I used a website to give volume and weight of water, and the 2000kg didn't feel right (because of cubing) but I was too tired to do the math personally.

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, DShomshak said:

Hm. 5th and 6th editions explicitly say that Tunneling does not work through air or liquids.: it "only works on solid substances, such as soil." CC, with its abbreviated descriptions, does not include that specification. But I'm leery of taking that as a "rules change."

 

Hmm. I hate to go against explicit rule descriptions.  What about a "gate" teleport, with physical manifestation that passes through intervening space.  The SFX are walking through a dry passage...

[death tribble]

Doc Democracy and I know a simple real world solution to the question.

Move to England and wait for it to rain.....

[Doc Democracy]

I have been in London for 25 years now, there has never been a wet year, not compared to the West of Scotland...

[L. Marcus]

West of Scotland exports rain. They have rain mines.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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However, the 6e text of Telekinesis seems to forbid applying that STR per unit volume of a larger AoE

 

Yeah and while I basically understand the idea behind that ruling?  It negates a lot of builds from the comics and effects from movies, books etc. I mean, technically you can build them, but it takes a zillion points.  So its a violation of consistency between builds that greatly hampers simulating the genre which makes it... not a great rule.  Look at how many points it would take just to part a swimming pool, let alone the Red Sea.  It expensive enough already to do fancy stuff with TK without altering the area effect rules just in case Joey Munchkin finds a killer build.

 

Quote

Water is considerably less dense than stone and over the same volume would not have placed it at more than 1/2 the body of stone, if that high

 

Stone shatters pretty easily though, it fragments.  Softer things are harder to do permanent damage to in that way; water is noncompressible so I figured it should be somewhat near stone but not as high.  Water also tends to absorb impact rather than be damaged by it, so its not something that is going to be easy to wipe out.  I mean look at how much energy it takes just to get water to boil?  How many body is that?

Edited December 6, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[GDShore]

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Stone shatters pretty easily though, it fragments.

Some stone does, shist, karst, flint, shale and such like. Yes water does everything that you said it does and it is less than 1/2 the mass of stone, actually it is less than 40% of its mass. Not all stone fragments easily that's why ancient and medieval walls were built of granite, limestone and sandstone, they don't fragment they chip.