Maneuvers for Blast (No Range)

[unclevlad]

Blast (No Range) is the flip side of Telekinesis...Telekinesis says you can use "STR" at range, and thus (with FIne Manip and GM approval) martial maneuvers.  But...ranged or HTH?  They're neither fish nor fowl entirely.  Blast (No Range) is the same in that regard...it's not ranged because of the limitation, but it's not entirely HTH.

 

But to me, someone whose power set centers on no-range blasts should be training in a manner similar to an HTH type, particularly with issues like balance, footwork, stance, and recovery.  IOW:  martial arts training makes perfect sense.  So...how should we build maneuvers for someone with real combat training with his no-range blasts (or flashes, or RKAs).

 

There are 2 approaches.

 

1.  Use HTH martial maneuvers as the baseline, but no damage can be added...period.  HTH martial maneuvers require that an attack uses STR.  EDIT:  maneuver elements that add velocity based on *your* movement, such as Passing Strike, use momentum as a form of additional STR, so they can't be used either.  If the extra damage comes from the opponent's movement, like most Trip variations?  That's up to the GM.

 

2.  Use Ranged martial maneuvers as the baseline, but obviously range mods never come into play.

 

Differences:

--HTH martial art maneuver construction supports certain things that aren't included in Ranged...Grab Opponent, FMove attacks, and Bind, Disarm, and Grab Weapon.  Stylistically, these feel like they should be allowed.  

--HTH martial arts allows up to +4 OCV/DCV.  Cost is 1 point per for 1-2 then 2 per.  Ranged, the max is +2, and it's 2 points per.

--Opponent Falls is 1 point for HTH, 2 points for Ranged.

 

I'm leaning to using HTH maneuvers...probably mostly custom ones, but there may be a good enough group that don't improve damage.  Which also means, no HTH damage classes, of course.  And for skills that connect to a combat style (HTH or Ranged), Blast No Range falls into the HTH class.  It does NOT mean that the power "HTH Attack" can augment a Blast No Range.  

 

 

[Grailknight]

Your blast can use the Ranged Martial Arts moves right out of the box. I'd just buy the weapon proficiency for it and allow the Hand to Hand moves that apply.

Edited February 12 by Grailknight

[unclevlad]

5 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Your blast can use the Ranged Martial Arts moves right out of the box. I'd just buy the weapon proficiency for it and allow the Hand to Hand moves that apply.

 

Many of the Ranged Combat pre-built maneuvers include a Ranged Mod...which you never use.  So you're going custom there.  Ranged Maneuvers also have a very limited set of elements...neither FMove nor Disable are defined, and they should be supported.  

 

It's gonna be a hybrid of some sort no matter what, it seems to me.  I actually have no problem with 

 

--from Ranged maneuvers, the bases (Disarm, Strike, Throw) and the elements for OCV, DCV, Throw (when Strike is the basis), v/10 (which is target's velo), and if appropriate, the Half Move Required and Time+ restrictive elements.  Using +OCV/DCV is 2 points per probably gives better balance in any case. because without + to damage or a Range Mod bonus, the maneuvers are really cheap.

--from HTH, helpful would at least be Disable, Disarm (again, as a helpful element when Strike is the basis...it uses the power of the Blast), FMove, Throw, v/10 and v/6 but ONLY treating the target's velo, not the relative velos involved;  and most of the restrictives for HTH don't seem to be problematic, altho they might not apply that often.  

 

I actually built the no-range concept I'm developing like this, as this has been going on.  His attacks:

--normal attack based on ED;  does no KB

--AVAD Power Def

--NND, Does Body, Power Def

--Flash, Sight and Hearing, targets Power Def (same level as Flash Def, so this is a +0 swap)

 

The maneuvers:

5 -- Disabling Strike:  1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, Weapon Strike;  Disable Limb;  Target Falls  

4 -- Disarming Strike:  1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Weapon Strike;  Target is Disarmed

4 -- Balanced Strike:  1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, Weapon Strike

5 -- Evasive Strike:  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, FMove, Weapon Strike

 

Remember that +1 OCV or DCV is 2 points.  Just because the attack doesn't do KB per se, doesn't mean it can't be disruptive enough to force the target to drop something, or lose balance, I figure, but...I might pull it if it messes up those attacks.  

 

 

 

[Tech]

I'd just go with Martial Arts. I wouldn't use Blast, no range. I'd go with extra damage defined as Energy to your Str. If necessary, add weapon proficiency. I don't think we need new martial arts.

[Sketchpad]

1 hour ago, Tech said:

I'd just go with Martial Arts. I wouldn't use Blast, no range. I'd go with extra damage defined as Energy to your Str. If necessary, add weapon proficiency. I don't think we need new martial arts.

 

I agree with Tech here. Wouldn't Hand to Hand Attack work just as well? 

[LoneWolf]

Special effect allowing I don’t see a reason you cannot use both.  I seem to remember one of the knife based martial arts having both ranged and HTH maneuvers in it.  If you  can do that with a knife why is TK or blast no range any different.     

[unclevlad]

10 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

 

I agree with Tech here. Wouldn't Hand to Hand Attack work just as well? 

 

In general, mechanically, yes.  But it simply does not fit the character concept.   And, note that the same issues arise with Drain, Transform, Entangle, or Flash that are delivered by touch...AKA, no range.  

 

7 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Special effect allowing I don’t see a reason you cannot use both.  I seem to remember one of the knife based martial arts having both ranged and HTH maneuvers in it.  If you  can do that with a knife why is TK or blast no range any different.     

 

That's a specific situation...don't need to go to a character or style build, see 6E1 231, adding Ranged to an HA.  The baseline is, you can't add Ranged to an HA.  

[Lord Liaden]

There are some published builds for skilled fighters, trained "martial artists," who don't buy MA maneuvers at all. The just buy Combat Skill Levels with normal HTH Combat Maneuvers, to an equivalent amount of MA maneuvers, and call that their Martial Art. When you look at what you can do with CSL in conjunction with standard free Maneuvers, the options can get quite sophisticated. But you won't run into the same issue you have over what type of Maneuvers to buy.

Edited February 13 by Lord Liaden

[unclevlad]

That's another approach, to be sure.

[LoneWolf]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

In general, mechanically, yes.  But it simply does not fit the character concept.   And, note that the same issues arise with Drain, Transform, Entangle, or Flash that are delivered by touch...AKA, no range.  

 

 

That's a specific situation...don't need to go to a character or style build, see 6E1 231, adding Ranged to an HA.  The baseline is, you can't add Ranged to an HA.  

 

That simply says you cannot add the advantage ranged to the power HA.  Even that mentions an exception for thrown HTH weapons in a heroic campaign.

 

I don’t see a reason you could not use either HTH or ranged martial maneuvers with TK or blast no range.   Since Blast with no range will obviously not have any range modifiers using ranged maneuvers really does not do anything, but if the power in question was part of a multipower that had both types of attacks I could see the value of having both ranged and HTH maneuvers. 

[Gauntlet]

On oddball powers like that I usually state that whether they are HTH or Ranges has to be determined when power is purchased and be based on the special effect. Should you have to touch the target to make the attack then most likely it would have to be HTH. If you can do it without touching them, even if it has a 1 hex maximum range, it is Ranged. I even have one character who is a mentalist but has to touch his target; I have a limitation on this stating that he has to make two attack rolls, HTH and Mental, for the attack to hit the target (1/2 Limitation).