How many potions?

[Mr. R]

I have a Potion making archetype in my world.  But how many potions can an individual carry?

 

I ask because 

1) each potion maker can make a limited selection, but can make multiple of one type.

2) each potion has will take up a certain amount space due to the containers.

 

I am assuming each potion has about 200 ml (about 6 oz) and since I am postulating a bronze age setting, so metal containers are VERY rare!

[GDShore]

Starting withyour postulent figures, a container of 200 ml. we assume this  also includes the weight of the conaitner. A sword, basic, weighs in at about 2 kilo, that would be 10 potions, a suit of armor 40 kilo - 200 potions. 200 potions would be nearly impossible to carry even if they were cylindrical. Shape of the potion container would be as improtanat as the mass. A beaker or gourd style container will take up far more space, also what the container will be made of is of grave importance. Too weak and it breaks being touched too strong and nothing breaks it which makes it useless to those who want things to go boom. 

     The 'Alchemist' is one of the hardest archtypes to play in a campaign, he/she has a limited array of 'tools' at their disposal, when those are used up they become little more than untrained ordinaries, unless of course they have a portable 'Jr. Scientist" kit along with them. They have the potential though of being one of if not the most powerful characters in any campaign, whatever spell your mage type can create the Alchemist can reduce it and make it more powerful

[Christopher R Taylor]

part of the problem with carrying potions is that they take up a lot of space and usually are fragile, so you can't carry like, 200 healing potions because where would you put them all and how do you keep them from breaking or leaking?

[Old Man]

13 hours ago, Mr. R said:

I have a Potion making archetype in my world.  But how many potions can an individual carry?

 

This seems like it would be kind of arbitrary.  A 5 Hour Energy is two ounces.  A Diet Coke is two liters, plus you have to carry the Mentos separately.

 

But if we've settled on six ounces (the size of a Capri Sun fwiw), then it becomes a question of what material the containers are made of.  Fortunately even in the Bronze Age we had all kinds of options.  Pottery and glass were most common but obviously not a great choice for wading into combat.  Bronze was not uncommon, and examples of ornate ~6 oz bronze sippy cups for kids persist today.  These would be pretty awesome for an alchemist to use, but you wouldn't want to lose them.  Horn was another surprisingly common drink container, though they would have to have some kind of lid fashioned for them.  (Horn just begs to have runes carved or inlaid into it.). There's nothing stopping the Bronze Age alchemist from making small waterskins out of... skins.  Lastly, you can make a pretty good stoppered bottle out of wood, though you might have to wax or lacquer the inside.  And there are wood-adjacent materials like gourds or bamboo as well.

 

Given all these options the limiting factor would seem to be size and shape, as opposed to just weight.  If the alchemist has a bunch of consistent-sized containers then he could rig up some kind of bandolier, but if he's carrying all kinds of randomly shaped skins, horns, and gourds, then he will have to either hang them from cords or carry them all in some kind of satchel.  Either option would be pretty ungainly.  More to the point, it will cost the alchemist precious time to locate and chug the right potion, which might be a serious handicap in combat.  I'd call that half DCV and a full phase at least, maybe less if the alchemist has that one emergency potion hanging around his neck, equipped with a straw.

 

As for bulk--a 30-count box of Capri Suns weighs about 5 kg, and that's with the practically weightless plastic pouches.  64 of those would equal about 10 kg or 22 pounds, which is around or even over the limit for encumbrance.  For comparison, I did a five-mile hike this past weekend with a 20-pound backpack, and though it was well packed I would really not have wanted to wear the thing into combat.

 

So to answer your question--32 potions in combat, 64 in combat with a real encumbrance penalty.  Liquids are heavy.

 

 

[Mr. R]

7 hours ago, Old Man said:

A Diet Coke is two liters, plus you have to carry the Mentos separately.

LOL!

7 hours ago, Old Man said:

So to answer your question--32 potions in combat, 64 in combat with a real encumbrance penalty.  Liquids are heavy.

 

Sounds like a good amount.  Sold!

[LoneWolf]

Does the alchemist have the ability to create potions on the fly or are they premade potions.  If he can create them on the fly he does not need multiple of every potion.  I could see the majority of the ingredients of the potions not taking up much space.  If the alchemist is basically mixing these ingredients with water or other liquids he could carry the ingredients for many potions.  This would make the alchemist perform similar to a normal spell caster.  

[GDShore]

In one of my campaigns, there was a player who chose to be an 'Alchemist', like me he was also an archer, to be precise a crossbowman. during the campaign he discovered the slurbow, a crossbow with a barrel, increased accuracy, and range. He built one, 75 kilo draw on a 11" stroke. he could hit a 4" targe at 150 meter 95 out of 100 times. Question asked could his Alchemist use a slurbow to toss potions further than he could hand toss them. Using a variety of glass containers he practiced at a local abandoned quarry with around 200 ml of water. Tried test tubes, beakers, gourde shaped, and spheres, in glass and pottery. (pottery types he quickly discarded as useof them ment lower payloads.) The spheres were he found the best overall for range and accuracy although test tube style gave a larger total number of units carried, dispersal with spheres was better. As well, the spheres need a sabot to handle launch or they shatter, the test tube style can have a grove cut across it's face to receive a string. 

     As for how many he could carry my postulae of 200 was not theoretical. He made a duster with a liner that held spaces for 200 test tube style, just don't lie down while wearing it, he did once but not a second time. I don't know where he is now but where ever it is "he is creating some thing unique, nasty and well tested."  If you are not wearin armor you have that 40 kilo of spare encumbrance. 

      The military pack out of the P.P.C.L.I. was approximately 64 kilo's, force march 50 km. and then fight a pitched battle. (Canadian definition of a pitched battle used to be a combat lasting more than 8 hours and using 66% of ammunition carried) 

      As the campaign wound down he came up with a portable Alchemist's labratory, costed out experiance points saved upto purchase it and he got to use it for about 6 months.  

As for your question Lone Wolf, about creating potions on the fly, I do not think so. As a GM I would not allow it>

[Gauntlet]

I definitely would allow an alchemist type character to make potions on the fly. Definitely not everything, and with a decent number of limitations (probably taking a minute to create them in advance). Would probably have them purchased as a multipower with the OAF and charges limitations on the multipower itself, not the individual slots. In addition, the character might have a VPP, with greater limitations (OAF and charges definitely being part of them) for items he has to spend time in a lab to create.

[GDShore]

Hmmm, I still don't think so, after all do you really want someone mixing up nitro-glycerine while on the move. 

[DShomshak]

Just to be obtuse, I'll note that according to Nathan Sivin's translation of an old Chinese alchemy manual, the "potions" (all immortality elixirs, the Chinese didn't care about anything else) took the form of powders produced in a crucible, then mixed with jujube pulp and molded into pills. Sort of alchemical gumdrops. These would be far less bulky than the D&D standard potion. But the image might be a bit less romantic.

 

(The elixirs were heavy on mercury and arsenic compounds. Well, eating a handful would ensure you'd never get sick again... They have extremely cool names, though. For a sample, see page 124 of Ultimate Mystic.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[Old Man]

Yeah the imagery of your alchemist changes drastically if instead of potions, they're eating edibles.  Or injecting their 'potions' with a syringe.

[Gauntlet]

2 hours ago, GDShore said:

Hmmm, I still don't think so, after all do you really want someone mixing up nitro-glycerine while on the move. 

 

How would that be any different than a Wizard trying to summon an Elemental while in the middle of combat?

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, GDShore said:

Hmmm, I still don't think so, after all do you really want someone mixing up nitro-glycerine while on the move. 

 

It depends, did the alchemist take the Side Effect limitation?

[Gauntlet]

52 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

It depends, did the alchemist take the Side Effect limitation?

 

If it would have a Side Effect, would the Side Effect go off when the potion is created, or when it is used. Would be rather interesting if the GM makes the skill roll for the character so they don't always know if it was good or not.

[Old Man]

47 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

 

If it would have a Side Effect, would the Side Effect go off when the potion is created, or when it is used.

 

Why not both?

[Gauntlet]

42 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

Why not both?

 

Problem is if it is both the one while it is used would be never encountered because they would already know it was bad when the first side effect goes off while the potion is being created.

 

Now you could have it set that one or the other goes off based on the roll or type of potion, like perhaps if they miss by one or two points it goes off in the creator's face, but if the roll is missed by 3 or more it goes off when used. Or you could say something like a potion that heals will have the side effect go off when the potion is used, while one that grants some type of power/ability will goes off when the potion is created.

Edited May 9 by Gauntlet

[Mr. R]

The big limitation on alchemy is the time to make a potion.  I have it divided into lesser (20 AP) regular (40 AP) and greater (60 AP).  To make a potion is a RSR at -1/ 10 AP and 1 hour / 10 AP.

 

So a lesser potion of healing is two hours and a -2 on the RSR.  Double the time to halve the skill roll ( 4 Hours and -1) and quadruple the time to quarter ( 8 hours and -0).  Greater potions are 6 hours and -6 base ( 12 hours and -3 OR 24 hours and -1).

 

Since Alchemy is clerical based (they pray while stirring a concoction while Force of Will makes it a potion), I would state they must have proper gear, time, and a sacred place to make the potion.  So no creating while on the move, but if they get to a small town and can rest up a few days, yes, a few can be made.

 

 

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, Mr. R said:

The big limitation on alchemy is the time to make a potion.  I have it divided into lesser (20 AP) regular (40 AP) and greater (60 AP).  To make a potion is a RSR at -1/ 10 AP and 1 hour / 10 AP.

 

So a lesser potion of healing is two hours and a -2 on the RSR.  Double the time to halve the skill roll ( 4 Hours and -1) and quadruple the time to quarter ( 8 hours and -0).  Greater potions are 6 hours and -6 base ( 12 hours and -3 OR 24 hours and -1).

 

Since Alchemy is clerical based (they pray while stirring a concoction while Force of Will makes it a potion), I would state they must have proper gear, time, and a sacred place to make the potion.  So no creating while on the move, but if they get to a small town and can rest up a few days, yes, a few can be made.

 

 

 

I kind of find this making Alchemists rather useless, kind of like Wizards in 2nd Edition D&D at lower levels, pretty much after the first encounter they were out of spells and had to wait the next 10 or more encounters hiding in the back as they had no way to fight. Problem is that in a dungeon, most of the time the Alchemist will run out of Potions, many times making them rather useless. Now you could say that they just need to spend more points on other combat abilities, but if you are playing a typical lower point Fantasy Hero game that becomes next to impossible. I think a better way would allow lesser potions to be created much faster, perhaps a minute, while greater potions take hours to create.

[Mr. R]

3 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

I kind of find this making Alchemists rather useless, kind of like Wizards in 2nd Edition D&D at lower levels, pretty much after the first encounter they were out of spells and had to wait the next 10 or more encounters hiding in the back as they had no way to fight. Problem is that in a dungeon, most of the time the Alchemist will run out of Potions, many times making them rather useless. Now you could say that they just need to spend more points on other combat abilities, but if you are playing a typical lower point Fantasy Hero game that becomes next to impossible. I think a better way would allow lesser potions to be created much faster, perhaps a minute, while greater potions take hours to create.

 

 

I'll consider that!

[Old Man]

To revisit the container discussion for a bit--the average volume of a human cranium is 1.4L.  Feel free to use this new knowledge as you see fit.

[Mr. R]

After much contemplation I have made a decision.  Since making potions can be an intensive affair, I will cap the potions to about 2-3 oz. ( about the size of a decent mixed drink).

 

Note that since potions can be carried be everyone (potions are designed to be easy to sell) everyone can stock up on a selection of potions.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

How alchemy works in a campaign is up to the GM.  That being said there is no reason that some of the preparation cannot be made in advanced and actually creating the potion being simply mixing the final ingredients just before drinking it.  This is how alchemist work in Pathfinder.  That is not to say it has to be done this way, but it is a valid method. 

[GDShore]

H'mm, actually historically (I know, I know) the alchemist potions were seldom drunk, most were rubbed on, went boom, were powders or used to make metals, glass and other manufactered goods better. Pre mixing the powders, herbs, and various other ingredients could well save time in creating the whatever was to be created. Still most of the infusion types require boiling, or recently boiled water the later is most unlikely to be essayed. I do not see him/her becoming useless upon using up their present store of devices, as my friend used to say, a crossbow is still a crossbow. Whather firing stones or bolts they would still be useful and when combat was ended acouple of hours would replenish some of their specialties. Not useless at all. I've always believed that the players will always find a way to do whatthey want to do. My only problem with this is the average 21 st. century man has at least the knowledge that X or Y  will work because someone in our past invented it. A thing once known is known,  unless it is deliberately forgotten.

Correction  --- ... is most unlikely to be essayed in combat.

[Asperion]

Something I have often wondered about is how these potions are carried. Most of the time they are shown in glass bottles but glass is a poor container for those leading a dangerous lifestyle since they quickly break with little stress. A better choice would be leather pouches since they can conform to what is needed,  less likely to get damaged, the greatest problem is that unless properly lined they will absorb and or leak.

[GDShore]

Yes containing liquids is a issue, too fragile the container and it shatters at the slightest touch, too strong and nothing breaks it. Usin leather is a possibility, but making leather leak proof is an art not a science, you can make a hundred and one small mistake and the $^%$# leaks all over the place. Metal and pottery are to heavy, other materials have other issues, but not all potions have to be liquid. Delivering a powder, a solid or a gas hafe issues of their own. As GM though you do not have to sit down and think it through, let your players do it. However, any new device, weapon or even a spell NEEDS  to be passed by the GM first. The GM thus controlls the introduction of the new into the game. The player's are just as determined as you that the game work, that everyone have fun and that things not become unbalanced. Let your players use their imagination!!!