Waaaaahhhh!

[Mark Taylor]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

I think a more useful question (not that yours isn't useful) would be: What can be done with the TE setting to make it interesting to SF RPG buyers?

 

We could come up with a good group of settings, extending the history of the Hero Universe into the fourth millennium. For example, suppose some great cataclysm/war were to take place (probably in connection with whatever prompted the Mandaarian Exodus) around 3200, leaving much of the galaxy a shambles and reducing magic to its Valdorian Age level. Earth could be left with an impassible barrier at the top of the atmosphere, leaving it as a post-apocalypse setting but with magic (a la Thundarr the Barbarian and I think a few other familiar settings). Beyond Earth, the galaxy is left in a state similar to the first season of Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda, but again with magic present (in the Spacejammer tradition, just a different feel).

 

Then, just as the Galactic Federation is re-forming and a means of getting on and off Earth is surfacing, contact is made with another galaxy (probably Andromeda), with all of the political and long-distance transportation issues involved there -- Space Opera with magic.

 

I'm sure someone else can take up the story from there.

 

I think this kind of background could potentially be quite cool - if it was done right. SF with magic in a fairly dark post-apocalyptic universe is an idea I've been toying with myself for quite a while now, as a matter of fact, so I have plenty of ideas (though not many of them are really very fully formed at present). Such a background would require the designer to take all the societal implications of both technology and magic fully into account or the campaign world would be wide open to massive abuse by player characters. I'm happy to swap ideas on the subject with anybody who is interested (Provided I get credit for them ).

[Mark Taylor]

Of course Galactic Champions could give Star Hero a bit of a boost - except that it's listed as part of the Champions line, not part of the Star Hero line. I'm kinda wondering why that should be since I'd have thought that Star Hero - with its guidelines on technology, starships, worlds and so on - would be of at least as much use if not more to a Galactic Champions campaign as Champions.

 

Edit: Or to put it another way, I understand that Galactic Champions is an extension of the Champions universe, and falls into the superhero genre, but I've had thought that a GC GM would be more likely to need the information in Star Hero than the information in Champions to run it.

[BobGreenwade]

Setting up GC as a SH book probably wouldn't make much difference -- the issue, from what I've gathered, is the sales numbers for the support books (TE, STK, and AW). Really, I think we should back up just a tad and try to think of what can be done to make TE stand out in the pack. The earlier remark that TE is too "generic" has some merit -- I absolutely love the setting myself (much more than I would if were trying to play in the Star Trek or Star Wars universes), but some sort of "hook" to draw in the audiences is what's missing.

[Mark Taylor]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

Setting up GC as a SH book probably wouldn't make much difference -- the issue, from what I've gathered, is the sales numbers for the support books (TE, STK, and AW). Really, I think we should back up just a tad and try to think of what can be done to make TE stand out in the pack. The earlier remark that TE is too "generic" has some merit -- I absolutely love the setting myself (much more than I would if were trying to play in the Star Trek or Star Wars universes), but some sort of "hook" to draw in the audiences is what's missing.

 

True, but then I don't see how extending the timeline would make much of a difference either - it would effectively be a different setting. I also like the TE setting personally, I just don't think it's a recipe for success.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Realms of Chaos

True, but then I don't see how extending the timeline would make much of a difference either - it would effectively be a different setting. I also like the TE setting personally, I just don't think it's a recipe for success.

Extending the timeline is a whole different thought process, and one of those that I'm now trying to back up over. (But carefully -- I don't want to damage it, as it may be valuable later.) I think throwing in some elements of martial arts adventures, or at least using the TE setting as a possible basis for SF/MA adventures, would be a good boost. I'm wondering what other little touches we might be able to suggest.

[Steve]

When I was in the process of gearing up for a new campaign, I presented my players with a number of setting options, all non-fantasy, and the one they chose was Alien Wars. They're even okay with starting out at the 50+50 level as raw recruits.

 

So at least in one gaming group, Star Hero is alive and well.

[Toadmaster]

My thoughts of what I would have prefered to see (my opinion only) is instead of trying to jump in with specific settings (TE, AW) would have been to bring out the subgenre books, a hard science near future for games set in the Aliens universe, Outland or some Cyberpunk games. A rubbery hard science distant future book for games such as Startrek, a fantastic or pulpy genrebook for Starwars or Battlestar Galactica games etc. Postapocalypse book, Alien books, Equipment books etc.

 

DoJ seems to be set on bringing out their own setting right up front which to me is putting the horse before the cart. I'm converting or creating my own settings which it looks like many others are as well. It's not that I don't want to see DoJ bring out setting books, just that they are way down on my list of stuff to buy. DoJ has said scenarios do not sell well, so they will not be making many if any. Why do they think settings will sell better, to me they go hand in hand, if an adventure module won't sell why will a setting? Most games include a setting because that is how their rulse are designed to work, HERO does not work like that. If you look at GURPS (which is the most HERO like product out there) nearly all of the GURPS products were generic first and then settings added in later, that seems to have worked well for SJG.

 

Again just my thoughts, I've probably repeated much of my earlier comments but some of the recent posts showed me some others seem to think the same way.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Toadmaster

DoJ seems to be set on bringing out their own setting right up front which to me is putting the horse before the cart.

Isn't the assumption, though, that SH basically covered all the "genericness", so moving on to specific settings is perfectly reasonable? I mean, GURPS Space is like a pamphlet compared to SH.

 

And don't setting books like TE or AW sort of serve your purposes by example?

 

I think it all boils down to the fact that SF has never been a big seller, RPG-wise, barring mammoth liscenses like Star Wars.

[Spence]

I was thinking of what made me like the SciFi games I played in the past. I loved Traveller in the begining, but now it prompts little to no interest. When LUG put out LUGtrek I enjoyed the system as one of the better games to catch the "Trek" feel, but never had it "grab" me.

 

I think I have figured it out. The early SciFi games were heavy (for their time) on the gear and tech of the ships. They had detailed world building. But, they had vague and generalized "world/universes". I never had a player "Know" a Grill wouldn't do that as I've been told "A Klingon would never do that!" To me SciFi more than any other genre is about exploring the unknown. If the player can buy the supplement and read it, and they do, the magic of the unknown is gone.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Spence

I think I have figured it out. The early SciFi games were heavy (for their time) on the gear and tech of the ships. They had detailed world building. But, they had vague and generalized "world/universes". I never had a player "Know" a Grill wouldn't do that as I've been told "A Klingon would never do that!" To me SciFi more than any other genre is about exploring the unknown. If the player can buy the supplement and read it, and they do, the magic of the unknown is gone.

Not a bad thought, but it doesn't hold up in light of successful original (as opposed to licensed) sci-fi universes like Traveller.

 

I still think the earlier point by "Realms of Chaos" is the strongest -- the Terran Empire setting really needs some unique "hook" to make it stand out. My thought of The Galactic Martial Artist is one way this could be... well, not actually accomplished, but at least pushed in the right direction. It also occurs to me that such a book would be handy for Galactic Champions games as well, and probably even straightforward Champions.

 

A "space pirates" supplement focusing on the Vorsan Expanse might be of some help as well; I'm not aware of a lot of existing materials on space piracy in science fiction RPGs.

[Spence]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

Not a bad thought, but it doesn't hold up in light of successful original (as opposed to licensed) sci-fi universes like Traveller.

 

I don't see how. The original Traveller in the original three black books, which I still have, contained almost nothing about an existing universe. It did tell you how to generate one. In fact the "Worlds and Adventure" doesn't have anything of the existing universe other than mentioning "the Psionics Institute" as a way to cover the Psi rules. Animals are decribed by type: Herbivore, Carnvore or more specifically Pouncer, Grazer and so on.

 

Even later on, in the 80's (the original game came out in 77) when an adventure was published it would say a name (planet, starport etc.) but there usually wasn't and actual map to place it. It was later when they began to publish the sectors and prebuilt universes that I started to lose interest. Heck, one time I had purchased the "Azhanti High Lightning" supplement for the deck plans, and when one of my players noticed the cover of the pamphlet (pre-box version) he started telling me about it in detail. I do have to admit the Judges Guild traveller map for a spaceport hotel (can't remember the name} was the site of many a Champs battle.

[Toadmaster]

Originally posted by buzz

Isn't the assumption, though, that SH basically covered all the "genericness", so moving on to specific settings is perfectly reasonable? I mean, GURPS Space is like a pamphlet compared to SH.

 

And don't setting books like TE or AW sort of serve your purposes by example?

 

I think it all boils down to the fact that SF has never been a big seller, RPG-wise, barring mammoth liscenses like Star Wars.

 

You are correct but the perception is it is a stand alone setting not a generic book of ideas, this may seem stupid but I am a HERO long time fan and I only recently bought Dark Champions because of my expectation that it was a Supers book. So yes, AW and TE have stuff useful to me in a generic sense but it is mixed in and about with setting material I couldn't care less about. Look at TE and look at FH Grimoire, both have setting specific material but the Grimoire is much less in your face while still quite useful for the DoJ setting.

 

It just seems like DoJ is putting alot of weight on a few products without giving the line a fair shot. Shades of Black is another example they put out a good product (at least from what I've heard) but it was a product that even Champs players are saying is very limited in appeal instead of putting out a product such as the Asian Beastiry which (in my opinion) would have had a much wider audience. It seems to me SH is getting the same treatment, instead of putting out products with broad appeal all the SH support has been limited to the DoJ settings, it would have been nice to see a real book of equipment, starships or aliens to compare the sales against the settings. FH has the advantage of both a popular genre and gettng generic material up front. I realize that they don't have the cash to muck about with low profit items but it seems to me SH isn't being marketed as well as the other lines either which is too bad and I don't understand the reasoning. If SH cannot get enough attention to stay up front on the schedule it does not inspire much hope for future fringe genres like Horror, Pulp or the old west.