Waaaaahhhh!

[bcholmes]

Originally posted by Spence

My problem is if I see stats on a ship I want a deck plan. which is why it will be a bit before I run my SO game.

 

Yes. This. This is me, too.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by bobrunnicles

Just out of interest, which DP9 system are you using? Heavy Gear? Tribe 8? Or I guess since you refer to a space game it might be Jovian Chronicles?

 

I have a bunch of T8 and HG but no JC, is it any good?

 

I'm running a Jovian Chronicles game. I love it. Its hard science with big mechs, but the truth is, without the focus on the mechs and pilots, it comes into its own stride. Don't get me wrong - big walking robots are cool, but the game has way more potential than that.

 

A lot of the books that aren't the marquee items are the ones to get, because their the one's that give you the rich background and plot information.

 

The SolaPol book is an absolute must have for someone who wants to run a non-military game, as are the non-military equipment books (like the mechanical catalogue II and the spacer's guide). The world books are very well done too.

[Fitz]

I like the Terran Empire setting. It's not startlingly original, but it seems to be pretty internally consistent and it allows for a reasonably wide variety of playing styles. A big plus in my book is the fact that its similarity to the default Traveller universe means that a lot of the enormous amount of resource material available for Traveller (especially GURPS Traveller) can be slotted straight into a TE campaign with minimal work on the part of the GM.

 

What I'd like to see a lot more of is fairly generic low-cost sci-fi resources being published -- stuff like the Planetary Survey series SJG put out for GURPS Traveller. Those are only about 64 pages, soft covers, and stapled; the production values are quite adequate to the task but low enough to keep production costs down. Subjects which could be covered in a similar fashion might be, for example, organisations like megacorporations or mercenary companies, expansions on standard vehicle types with deckplans and what-not, planetary descriptions and so on.

 

If I could pick up 64-page specific sourcebooks like this for under ten bucks, I'd buy them pretty regularly. In fact, I'd be more likely to buy ten such ten dollar booklets in a year than three thirty dollar bigger sourcebooks.

[DrTemp]

Originally posted by Fitz

I like the Terran Empire setting. It's not startlingly original,

 

I'd even say RPG books should not attempt to be too original. "Terran Empire" makes it easy for any SF fan to feel at home, and thus he/she can play without reading the entire book.

 

Transhuman Space, for example, is quite interesting to read, but you'll need a bunch of die-hard fans to play it. Too many very original facts int that universe. Without reading the books, most people won't even know what the setting is like, because it is hard to explain.

 

So I'd say Hero Games' strategy to cover the various genres with archetypical settings is a good one. RPG is not a very good medium to introduce new concepts into SF, Fantasy or the like. For that, one has to write novels, I'd say.

[DrTemp]

Originally posted by Spence

I know many people who are put off by Hero's vehicle system. I think it is because they want the ship/equipment rules to be separate from the character rules. [/b]

 

I have the impression that the approach of merely writing together all abilities of, say, a spaceship, has the disadvantage that one might easily overlook some basic design principles which make, for example, a spaceship with chemical engines and a burn endurance of a month or more virtually impossible.

 

My problem is if I see stats on a ship I want a deck plan.

 

Seconded. Deck plans (or at least rough layouts and cutaway images of the ship) are a great assistance in imagining the vessel.

[bobrunnicles]

Originally posted by DrTemp

Seconded. Deck plans (or at least rough layouts and cutaway images of the ship) are a great assistance in imagining the vessel.

 

Thirded Deck plans in an SF game are like crack to me, I can't get enough. Comes down to all that time playing Traveller way back, I picked up the Kinunir and Broadsword adventures and Traders & Gunboats supplement mainly because they had cool deck plans in them.

 

The six (?) deckplan sets that SJG put out are fantastic, with grids of hexes on one side and squares on the other; I wish they would put out more.

 

Speaking of SJG I agree that the line of 'small' books SJG puts out are great; as someone said earlier I'd be more likely to pick up ten of those than the larger books. They use them for smaller Transhuman Space supplements, an NPC book for Traveller, planet books for Traveller, some of the smaller participants in WWII etc - highly useful.

 

Bob

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Fitz What I'd like to see a lot more of is fairly generic low-cost sci-fi resources being published -- stuff like the Planetary Survey series SJG put out for GURPS Traveller. Those are only about 64 pages, soft covers, and stapled; the production values are quite adequate to the task but low enough to keep production costs down. Subjects which could be covered in a similar fashion might be, for example, organisations like megacorporations or mercenary companies, expansions on standard vehicle types with deckplans and what-not, planetary descriptions and so on.

 

If I could pick up 64-page specific sourcebooks like this for under ten bucks, I'd buy them pretty regularly. In fact, I'd be more likely to buy ten such ten dollar booklets in a year than three thirty dollar bigger sourcebooks. [/b]

I'd love to see something like this as well. I think DOJ could even scrimp a little on the production values on this one -- not to save money, but to give the books a bit of verisimilitude (it's a government report, so it should look like one). I doubt that this would ever happen, but I would certainly be standing near the front of the line to get any of these.

 

That said, I'll add my voice to those calling for a book of (or at least including) starship deck plans, and mostly for the reasons already given. (I also think such a thing would make a good multi-system resource, handy for GURPS Space and other sci-fi GMs.)

[Mark Taylor]

Originally posted by Fitz

I like the Terran Empire setting. It's not startlingly original, but it seems to be pretty internally consistent and it allows for a reasonably wide variety of playing styles. A big plus in my book is the fact that its similarity to the default Traveller universe means that a lot of the enormous amount of resource material available for Traveller (especially GURPS Traveller) can be slotted straight into a TE campaign with minimal work on the part of the GM.

 

I agree, in fact I did exactly the opposite: I bought Terran Empire and Alien Wars so that I could use the various Alien Species and other cool ideas from them in my GURPS Traveller campaign.

 

However, while this is obviously useful to me I think it's also one of the major weaknesses of Terran Empire. Traveller in all its various incarnations is the 'big fish' out there when it comes to far future spacefaring sci-fi, and to attempt to compete with it by releasing a product so similar to it in so many ways seems like madness. If people want a traveller style game to play, they will play traveller. They'll have a far wider range of support material available to them and they even have a choice of (currently in print) three different systems, two of which are very large and well supported systems (GURPS and D20).

[DrTemp]

Originally posted by Realms of Chaos

However, while this is obviously useful to me I think it's also one of the major weaknesses of Terran Empire. Traveller in all its various incarnations is the 'big fish' out there when it comes to far future spacefaring sci-fi, and to attempt to compete with it by releasing a product so similar to it in so many ways seems like madness. If people want a traveller style game to play, they will play traveller. [/b]

 

I guess the authors don't need us to play the settings presented. They just want us to buy them. For you and me, it obviously worked.

 

They'll also do a "Galactic Federation", which seems to be very Trek-related in outlook, and I guess it's intentional. It's an example on how to convert these settings to Hero without actually being forced to pay license fees. Terran Empire works a bit like Traveller earlier in it's history, and can be used as Star Wars to the end.

 

Of course, these settings are also very good on their own (at least the two I know).

[Lowly Uhlan]

This has been an informative thread. I hadn't been reading the stuff on these boards for a little while and did'nt know the SH line was being scaled back. That's too bad. I've bought all of the 5E SH stuff. And I never had any intention of running a game set in the Terran Empire/Alien Wars settings. I'll be running a "hard' SF SH game. I bought the books primarily for the equipment and skill packages. With a few very minor changes I'll have just about every package I need for my game.The equipment will be useful, the game is set 400 years from now, I can get a little "rubbery" with the science and not feel bad about it.And I love the weapons presented for SH. A signifigant amount of my time has been saved by the purchase of those books.I'm sure I'll get around to reading TE and AW at length,but the settings aren't what I bought them for. And from what I have read they're decent enough settings,just not the kind of game I want to run (wanted something bloodier than the Star Trek games I usually run) and definetely want to use the Hero rules (I'm a player in a Champions game, GMed Champs 20 years ago)

 

I will probably buy any future SH books.To be totally honest, I don't want any of my players to have one-upmanship on me with regards to the books. And I like supporting the Hero line. The system rocks.And my LGS does carry the complete Hero line (Game Towne, San Diego).I'll be playing there and will probably drag a player or 2 from the game room into my game. The topic of supporting SH came up and I hope that qualifies as support.

 

Long live Star Hero !

[Cybrarian]

Supporting SH

 

Originally posted by Lowly Uhlan

I will probably buy any future SH books. ... I like supporting the Hero line. The system rocks.And my LGS does carry the complete Hero line (Game Towne, San Diego).I'll be playing there and will probably drag a player or 2 from the game room into my game. The topic of supporting SH came up and I hope that qualifies as support.

 

Buying the books and bringing in new players have to be the two biggest shows of support possible. Good work! I'm covered on the first and working toward the second.

[BobGreenwade]

Just the kind of thing we need!

 

Originally posted by Lowly Uhlan

I will probably buy any future SH books.To be totally honest, I don't want any of my players to have one-upmanship on me with regards to the books. And I like supporting the Hero line. The system rocks.And my LGS does carry the complete Hero line (Game Towne, San Diego).I'll be playing there and will probably drag a player or 2 from the game room into my game. The topic of supporting SH came up and I hope that qualifies as support.

 

Long live Star Hero !

Amen! :D

[Mark Taylor]

Originally posted by DrTemp

I guess the authors don't need us to play the settings presented. They just want us to buy them. For you and me, it obviously worked.

 

For me and you, yes, but that isn't enough or TE would be selling better.

 

I seriously think that sci-fi is a very different animal compared to say, fantasy. Fantasy authors and game developers can get away with churning out the same old stereotypes time after time, but sci-fi fans demand innovation and originality - that is a large part of what the genre is about. Trends in sci-fi literature show time after time that the big impacts are made by novels which break new ground - and ideas that are too old and tired fall by the wayside. Sci-fi movies and TV shows only get away with it because the vast majority of their viewers only have a casual interest in the genre - they are not hardcore sci-fi fans. Those gamers who are not hardcore sci-fi fans want to play something they've seen on TV or film, something like Star Wars or Star Trek, and they go for the licensed games based on those properties. So for a new sci-fi game lacking a big license to be successful it has to capture the imagination of hardcore sci-fi fans and the only way to do that is to break new ground.

 

I may of course be wrong, but I've been a hardcore sci-fi fan myself for as long as I've been able to read, and based on that experience it's my honest opinion.

[tmutant]

I just bought Terran Empire and Star Hero and my friend syberdwarf bought TE ( He already had Star Hero.) The rest of you, make Bob happy. Get out there and buy Star Hero stuff. Alien Wars is next on my list.

 

I'm (at least) a couple of months from starting a campaign. I'll use the books to get a jump on creating my own setting based on the "Space Opera" universe from way back in the eighties.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Realms of Chaos

I seriously think that sci-fi is a very different animal compared to say, fantasy. Fantasy authors and game developers can get away with churning out the same old stereotypes time after time, but sci-fi fans demand innovation and originality - that is a large part of what the genre is about. Trends in sci-fi literature show time after time that the big impacts are made by novels which break new ground - and ideas that are too old and tired fall by the wayside. Sci-fi movies and TV shows only get away with it because the vast majority of their viewers only have a casual interest in the genre - they are not hardcore sci-fi fans. Those gamers who are not hardcore sci-fi fans want to play something they've seen on TV or film, something like Star Wars or Star Trek, and they go for the licensed games based on those properties. So for a new sci-fi game lacking a big license to be successful it has to capture the imagination of hardcore sci-fi fans and the only way to do that is to break new ground.

Hmmm... A while back I postulated The Galactic Martial Artist as a mostly useless and overly obscure supplement idea (though one that I'd actually buy; it was in my "What's the most useless supplement you'd actually like to see?" thread). Based on this, I'm starting to think that an overly hasty assessment. A book on playing martial arts adventures in the Terran Empire setting might be just the innovative shot in the arm it needs. (How logical that seems being all up to the DOJ guys, of course.)

[Mark Taylor]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

Hmmm... A while back I postulated The Galactic Martial Artist as a mostly useless and overly obscure supplement idea (though one that I'd actually buy; it was in my "What's the most useless supplement you'd actually like to see?" thread). Based on this, I'm starting to think that an overly hasty assessment. A book on playing martial arts adventures in the Terran Empire setting might be just the innovative shot in the arm it needs. (How logical that seems being all up to the DOJ guys, of course.)

 

I'd buy it! I'm just not sure too many other people would. Packing pick 'n' mix with genres is a very hit or miss proposition.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Realms of Chaos

I'd buy it! I'm just not sure too many other people would. Packing pick 'n' mix with genres is a very hit or miss proposition.

For that very reason I'm still a bit pessimistic about it. Risk comes with innovation (I remember such "innovative" failures as Unsub, VR5, Nowhere Man, and -- dare I mention it? -- Cop Rock), so it's hard to tell what's going to work and what isn't. I'm not aware of any sci-fi martial arts supplement for any game system, and a setting with a Star Wars feel would tend to lend itself well to such a thing, but is the market really ready for it? If it coincides with the release of SW Chapter Three, it might be; I'm not sure otherwise. I'd definitely buy it -- for that matter, I'm pretty sure I could do a right decent job of writing it if Steve would let me -- but I'm a little hesitant about what sales might be like.

[CraterMaker]

I love the idea of a martial art campaign set in Star Hero.

I remember reading a good book, "The 96th Step" (I think that was the name) that was along those lines..

 

Eventually, I plan to have all the books.. I just have to keep my lady all buttered up so's she don't give me friction about it.

 

-CraterMaker

[buzz]

Originally posted by CraterMaker

I just have to keep my lady all buttered up...

:fingers in ears:

 

TMI! TMI!!!

 

[DrTemp]

Originally posted by Realms of Chaos

I seriously think that sci-fi is a very different animal compared to say, fantasy. Fantasy authors and game developers can get away with churning out the same old stereotypes time after time, but sci-fi fans demand innovation and originality - that is a large part of what the genre is about. [/b]

 

But is this also true for SF RPG? I mean, Traveller obviously has some success, and it was not even innovative when first brought to the market - but it is a solid space opera background.

 

Role-playing games, in my opinion, are a reflective medium- they reproduce, but don't innovate. This is due to the fact that if it is designed to be actually played, all the players and the GM will have to agree (at least implicitly) on what kind of story to play, which is hardly possible when only one person knows what kind of events are gpoing to happen. (Not the exact events, of course, but the "genre" will usually be known to all players.)

 

Would you love to make yourself a Star Hero Character designed for a typical Alien Wars campaign who then finds himself in an adventure like the movie Solaris? I certainly would not.

 

There _are_ "innovative" RPG's, true, but they usually either vary an old theme (most notably, a variation of the super hero genre, mixed with something else, as in the German RPG "Engel" or White Wolf's World of Darkness) or are really niche products. (Which is unsuitable for a universal system like Hero, I'd say.)

[Mark Taylor]

Originally posted by DrTemp

But is this also true for SF RPG? I mean, Traveller obviously has some success, and it was not even innovative when first brought to the market - but it is a solid space opera background.

 

Role-playing games, in my opinion, are a reflective medium- they reproduce, but don't innovate. This is due to the fact that if it is designed to be actually played, all the players and the GM will have to agree (at least implicitly) on what kind of story to play, which is hardly possible when only one person knows what kind of events are gpoing to happen. (Not the exact events, of course, but the "genre" will usually be known to all players.)

 

Would you love to make yourself a Star Hero Character designed for a typical Alien Wars campaign who then finds himself in an adventure like the movie Solaris? I certainly would not.

 

There _are_ "innovative" RPG's, true, but they usually either vary an old theme (most notably, a variation of the super hero genre, mixed with something else, as in the German RPG "Engel" or White Wolf's World of Darkness) or are really niche products. (Which is unsuitable for a universal system like Hero, I'd say.)

 

 

I think it is true to an extent for RPGs. Traveller may not have been anything new in the field of SF, but at the time it was something very new in the field of gaming. Have you noticed that no "Traveller clone" has ever been successful, while Traveller itself is one of the most successful RPG settings ever?

 

What other SF RPGs have been successful? Well there is Cyberpunk and its successor Cyberpunk 2020, the first RPG based on the (at the time) new cyberpunk genre. Other companies tried to jump on the cyberpunk bandwagon too but the only other cyberpunk based game which was truly successful was Shadowrun - funnily enough the only one that did something completely different from regular cyberpunk by adding fantasy elements.

 

Then there is RIFTS. The system may suck (my opinion only) but it's hard to deny that it's a pretty unique setting in the RPG world.

 

Paranoia - definitely unique.

 

More recently - Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicles, Transhuman Space. None of them are particularly innovative in the field of sci-fi as a whole but they all gave us something new in the field of sci-fi gaming.

 

Indeed, almost every (if not every) successful sci-fi RPG, with the exception of those with big TV or Movie based licences, has given us something distinctly new to the field of sci-fi gaming. The same is not true of other genres such as fantasy or superheroes.

 

Go along to your FLGS and take a look at the successful (non-licensed) sci-fi RPGs there. They are all distinctly different from each other, with unique points of difference which are usually pretty central to the campaign setting. Now look at the fantasy and superheroes RPGs and you will not see much evidence of the same effect. I maintain my assertion that sci-fi can only really thrive on innovation.

 

Yes - roleplaying games are reflective as you suggest - but the evidence seems to show that sci-fi roleplaying games are far more likely to be successful when they reflect something they have never reflected before.

 

-----

 

All this, of course, leaves HERO Games with a problem. HERO is a generic system, and its supplements and settings attempt to cover the most common bases of each genre. This means largely emulating what has already been done in each genre and distilling it down to it's essence. However, no SF RPG which has merely attempted to copy what has already been done by other SF RPGs has ever been truly successful.

 

HERO games will either just have to face facts that their Star Hero lines will probably never really sell that well, or they will have to take a whacking great risk and try to come up with an innovative setting for Star Hero. Tough choice, but IMO it isn't HERO Games' fault and it isn't anything they can do something about, it's just the nature of the genre.

[DrTemp]

Originally posted by Realms of Chaos

Yes - roleplaying games are reflective as you suggest - but the evidence seems to show that sci-fi roleplaying games are far more likely to be successful when they reflect something they have never reflected before.

 

True. Now, what new SF subgenre should one use for an innovative RPG setting?

 

My feeling is, they have all been done already. Am I wrong?

[Aroooo]

Originally posted by DrTemp

True. Now, what new SF subgenre should one use for an innovative RPG setting?

 

My feeling is, they have all been done already. Am I wrong?

 

Well, they say there are no original ideas... Personally I don't agree with that statement 100%, but is sure is damn hard these days.

 

Aroooo

[DrTemp]

Originally posted by Aroooo

Well, they say there are no original ideas... Personally I don't agree with that statement 100%, but is sure is damn hard these days.

 

What I meant is: Which already published idea/SF subgenre has not yet been written into an RPG setting somewhere?

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by DrTemp

What I meant is: Which already published idea/SF subgenre has not yet been written into an RPG setting somewhere?

I think a more useful question (not that yours isn't useful) would be: What can be done with the TE setting to make it interesting to SF RPG buyers?

 

We could come up with a good group of settings, extending the history of the Hero Universe into the fourth millennium. For example, suppose some great cataclysm/war were to take place (probably in connection with whatever prompted the Mandaarian Exodus) around 3200, leaving much of the galaxy a shambles and reducing magic to its Valdorian Age level. Earth could be left with an impassible barrier at the top of the atmosphere, leaving it as a post-apocalypse setting but with magic (a la Thundarr the Barbarian and I think a few other familiar settings). Beyond Earth, the galaxy is left in a state similar to the first season of Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda, but again with magic present (in the Spacejammer tradition, just a different feel).

 

Then, just as the Galactic Federation is re-forming and a means of getting on and off Earth is surfacing, contact is made with another galaxy (probably Andromeda), with all of the political and long-distance transportation issues involved there -- Space Opera with magic.

 

I'm sure someone else can take up the story from there.