Someone has done it: The Captain America Thread

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

I've seen quite a few instances where either the Uber Villain casually deals with the riff-raff, or completely ignores them ( as they are, in fact, incapable of hurting him ).

 

Besides, Cap is more capable than most street levels of surviving, since he's got the shield to block any direct attacks ( and at least part of AoE attacks, IMHO, though *not* the entirety of them ).

How many villains place Cap in the riff-raff section?

 

Cap is very capable of surviving powerful attacks. How many times do we have to see a scene of a broken, battered hero bleeding and unconscious left behind only to discover that somehow they survived the attack before we accept that high body in a superhero milieu is perfectly warranted?

[Metaphysician]

To a major villain like DD, he's "riff-raff" because he's *incapable of doing anything to them*. Now, the more intelligent villains might target him for elimination to cut off the tactical head of the Avengers.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

To a major villain like DD, he's "riff-raff" because he's *incapable of doing anything to them*. Now, the more intelligent villains might target him for elimination to cut off the tactical head of the Avengers.

Cap is exactly the kind of character who is going to have Find Weakness attacks that would make such a decision a regretful one on the part of any villain.

[Metaphysician]

Um, if you look it up, you'll note that Doctor Destroyer has 15 points of Lack of Weaknesses.

 

While Cap might have some Find Weakness, there's no way he has enough to beat that penalty. You'd need somebody like Gamorra or Karate Kid.

[Hermit]

Well, in fairness, Cap has just the tacticial knowledge to realize that maybe chatting it up with Dr D and using time to build up the bonuses of that Find Weakness might be the best way to go.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hermit

Well, in fairness, Cap has just the tacticial knowledge to realize that maybe chatting it up with Dr D and using time to build up the bonuses of that Find Weakness might be the best way to go.

It's even easier than that. Cap should have some points tied into simply offsetting some of the Lack of Weakness and there is his Analyze Combat Skill Roll and his Overall Skill Levels. Cap can very nicely get a pretty good shot at lowering DD's defenses enough to put some stun on him. He can also tell the other people on the team where to shoot.

[Vigil]

re: as to your points to my points

 

In response to the earlier postings:

 

1 + 2) I raise the specter of munchkinism because I feel that the thorhny issue of Cap with a 30 BODY is not borne out by anything shown in comics and is instead a gamer's vanity and a slavish literalization of the genre rules.

 

3) You mention Cap surviving because of incredible stamina (END), fortitude (CON) and will to live (EGO). The point I'm trying to make about Cap with 30 BODY is that it reflects none of those things. The only use for BODY is to soak up damage which none of those characteristics reflect. BODY

 

4) I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that Neafria has never demonstrated the 8.5d6 PRKA which you espoused. Nefaria has demonstrated STR in excess of Wonder Man and Thor and that his naked, overwhelming STR which does NORMAL damage can be so great as to be overwhelming even to The Avenger's mightiest. There's simply no need to munchkinize again and tack on powers which there is no evidence, support or NEED for. Given your line of thought I could as easily postulate that hhis Superspeed is in fact a wide area Mental Paralysis to reflect that others seem to stand still around him but the evidence doesn't show or support that...it's just Running! And it's for the exact same reason that I don't think you need tp postulate some sort of unsupported OIF PRKA when Nefaria's great STR allows for normal attacks which do monstrous damage.

 

5) You don't think Cap should go down from 1 or 2 10d6 RKA's! I'm flummoxed by this. How invulnerable do you think this guy is? He's supposed to be the paragon of human phsycality, not The Hulk! Without his shield I wouldn't give him more than 12 rPD and rED (2 Levels of Combat Luck and his Chainmail which I belive would have a 11- ACT or so). Even then, he's soaking up 20+ BODY per shot and 93 STUN! That's more Thor's territory than Cap's. I think it's ludicrous to even begin to expect Cap to just soak that kind of damage up. I can not think of even a single example of Cap sustaining that kind of damage. When Cap (without his shield) fought Michael Korvac (who I believe can pretty easily generate a 10d6 RKA) in the absolute classic Avengers #177, CAP GOT KILLED. Cap is mortal. End of story unless you want to argue that Korvac used a 30 or 50d6 RKA instead. I don't know why you can't see that Cap's strength is in avoiding damage not absorbing it. If he get's hit with that kind of power, without his shield, he's pizza and that's it.

[Agent X]

Re: re: as to your points to my points

 

Originally posted by Vigil

In response to the earlier postings:

 

1 + 2) I raise the specter of munchkinism because I feel that the thorhny issue of Cap with a 30 BODY is not borne out by anything shown in comics and is instead a gamer's vanity and a slavish literalization of the genre rules.

 

3) You mention Cap surviving because of incredible stamina (END), fortitude (CON) and will to live (EGO). The point I'm trying to make about Cap with 30 BODY is that it reflects none of those things. The only use for BODY is to soak up damage which none of those characteristics reflect. BODY

 

4) I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that Neafria has never demonstrated the 8.5d6 PRKA which you espoused. Nefaria has demonstrated STR in excess of Wonder Man and Thor and that his naked, overwhelming STR which does NORMAL damage can be so great as to be overwhelming even to The Avenger's mightiest. There's simply no need to munchkinize again and tack on powers which there is no evidence, support or NEED for. Given your line of thought I could as easily postulate that hhis Superspeed is in fact a wide area Mental Paralysis to reflect that others seem to stand still around him but the evidence doesn't show or support that...it's just Running! And it's for the exact same reason that I don't think you need tp postulate some sort of unsupported OIF PRKA when Nefaria's great STR allows for normal attacks which do monstrous damage.

 

5) You don't think Cap should go down from 1 or 2 10d6 RKA's! I'm flummoxed by this. How invulnerable do you think this guy is? He's supposed to be the paragon of human phsycality, not The Hulk! Without his shield I wouldn't give him more than 12 rPD and rED (2 Levels of Combat Luck and his Chainmail which I belive would have a 11- ACT or so). Even then, he's soaking up 20+ BODY per shot and 93 STUN! That's more Thor's territory than Cap's. I think it's ludicrous to even begin to expect Cap to just soak that kind of damage up. I can not think of even a single example of Cap sustaining that kind of damage. When Cap (without his shield) fought Michael Korvac (who I believe can pretty easily generate a 10d6 RKA) in the absolute classic Avengers #177, CAP GOT KILLED. Cap is mortal. End of story unless you want to argue that Korvac used a 30 or 50d6 RKA instead. I don't know why you can't see that Cap's strength is in avoiding damage not absorbing it. If he get's hit with that kind of power, without his shield, he's pizza and that's it.

1 & 2) Bull! Buying Captain America a 30 Body is not munchkinism because you don't like the Champions Standard for peak human body or that Captain America is defined by most people as having peak human physical characteristics which would include body. What would be munchkinism is some atrocious cost savings measure to get the 30 body. Body is pretty much the least abusive characteristic that you can imagine. The reason it is usually bought so low is BECAUSE of munchkinism. Munchkins realize there is little bang for the buck in buying up body.

 

3) You are not worth arguing with if you are going to assign stamina, fortitude, and will to live to certain characteristics and refuse to reason to effect. It's okay for you to prefer a lower body. It's arrogant for you to assume that it's the only way to play without being a munchkin.

 

4) Read the USPD. You'll see plenty of examples of what I guess you think is Munchkin-like behavior. Vigil, you have no business telling everyone else what Count Nefaria can do just to argue your point. Especially when another poster has pointed out the inherent flaw whether you take my position on the thrown attacks or not.

 

5) Even with 30 Body, Cap will go down from the attacks. What I'm saying is he shouldn't be killed by two such attacks. Somehow you seem to be confusing body with constitution and stun.

[Metaphysician]

So, you *don't* think Cap should be mortally wounded by a tank shell hit and require medical attention??

[TheImperialKhan]

Not to put a damper on things but I've been playing Champions for more than twenty years now and in all that time I have never created a character, Hero or Villian, who had 30+ Body. In fact most of them get by just fine with a Body in the 13-15 area. Several have less and a few have just the 10 that they started with. All were still viable and quite effective characters.

 

I look at it this way Body reflectes two things: Mass and Will to Live. If a charcter is physically large or has a very strong Will to Live he'll get a Body of above 15 possibly as high as 20. He will go above 20 only if he is both Massive AND has an extraordinarily high Will to Live or if the characters Powers and Conception indicate that he is supposed to be effectively unkillable.

 

As for Cap (who is one of my favorite characters BTW) I would give him a Body in the 15 to 20 range to reflect his Will to Live but that's as far as it goes. I just don't think it should be higher. To paraphrase Thor Without the possiblity of death Heroism is an empty word with no meaning. I would never want to see Cap's heroism reduced to that.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

So, you *don't* think Cap should be mortally wounded by a tank shell hit and require medical attention??

Your question is phrased improperly. It should read like this. When confronted with a tank shell hurtling at him, should Cap be mortally wounded by the tank shell and require medical attention?

 

The answer is no. Cap will duck and dive, roll with the force of the explosion and the like. The way I envision Cap (and someday I'll finish the build) is that he doesn't need to be losing phases for this or get stuck having committed his actions and not be in a position to abort. The Cap I've begun to build has multiple redundancies. He's got damage reduction, a high body, and +2 Speed only to abort actions with a +1 advantage that the speed can be "stacked" on top of his normal phases. My Captain America won't be killed by a tank shell even if it "hits" because he's not supposed to take a direct hit from a tank shell. Please count the number of times he's been directly hit by a tank shell (not counting the shield).

 

A way to simulate this quality of Captain America is through a series of seemingly redundant options that ensure that Cap won't be killed. I'm very happy with my methods. It allows a player to run Cap and get to do something besides dodge in a fight with the kind of heavy-hitters the Avengers face. And yet, Cap can take stun from an ordinary joe with a baseball bat.

 

If you want Captain America splattered by Ultron's fist, you are playing in a different genre than the one I read in the Avengers and in Captain America.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan

Not to put a damper on things but I've been playing Champions for more than twenty years now and in all that time I have never created a character, Hero or Villian, who had 30+ Body. In fact most of them get by just fine with a Body in the 13-15 area. Several have less and a few have just the 10 that they started with. All were still viable and quite effective characters.

 

I look at it this way Body reflectes two things: Mass and Will to Live. If a charcter is physically large or has a very strong Will to Live he'll get a Body of above 15 possibly as high as 20. He will go above 20 only if he is both Massive AND has an extraordinarily high Will to Live or if the characters Powers and Conception indicate that he is supposed to be effectively unkillable.

 

As for Cap (who is one of my favorite characters BTW) I would give him a Body in the 15 to 20 range to reflect his Will to Live but that's as far as it goes. I just don't think it should be higher. To paraphrase Thor Without the possiblity of death Heroism is an empty word with no meaning. I would never want to see Cap's heroism reduced to that.

You are metagaming with that last response to argue that somehow Cap is less a hero with a 30 body. The characters don't see their stats and they don't appreciate the method of construction of the character to reason to effect. Either you are going to have tank shells or Ultron's fist kill Cap in your game or you are going to fudge the fight. I'm not sure how either are preferable.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan

Not to put a damper on things but I've been playing Champions for more than twenty years now and in all that time I have never created a character, Hero or Villian, who had 30+ Body. In fact most of them get by just fine with a Body in the 13-15 area. Several have less and a few have just the 10 that they started with. All were still viable and quite effective characters.

 

I look at it this way Body reflectes two things: Mass and Will to Live. If a charcter is physically large or has a very strong Will to Live he'll get a Body of above 15 possibly as high as 20. He will go above 20 only if he is both Massive AND has an extraordinarily high Will to Live or if the characters Powers and Conception indicate that he is supposed to be effectively unkillable.

 

As for Cap (who is one of my favorite characters BTW) I would give him a Body in the 15 to 20 range to reflect his Will to Live but that's as far as it goes. I just don't think it should be higher. To paraphrase Thor Without the possiblity of death Heroism is an empty word with no meaning. I would never want to see Cap's heroism reduced to that.

 

That's fine for your games, but the people who wrote 5th Edition obviously don't consider mass to be one of the main factors in determining a character's body.

[TheImperialKhan]

Originally posted by Agent X

You are metagaming with that last response to argue that somehow Cap is less a hero with a 30 body. The characters don't see their stats and they don't appreciate the method of construction of the character to reason to effect. Either you are going to have tank shells or Ultron's fist kill Cap in your game or you are going to fudge the fight. I'm not sure how either are preferable.

 

Not at all. Cap still has his agility to avoid the damage and his shield to soak it up if he gets tagged anyway. But if the shot gets past all of Cap's defenses then I think yes the attack should kill or cripple him. Way back during the SuperPatriot storyline they did a what if that had Cap killed by a single gunshot from an ordinary .38 caliber revolver. Such a weapon is nothing compared to what Ultron or the tank gun can dish out but it is capable of killing Cap. And really it should be, if only just barely capable.

 

A hero should be at risk from his foes. That's why in his own book Cap fights so many Highly Trained Normals and only rarely faces guys like Ultron, except when he is leading the Avengers. And then he plays what is largely a defensive game, attacking only when he sees an opening in his foes defenses and when he has manuevered that foe into a losing situation.

 

I'm sorry but unless you're running a campaign where really high powered attacks are the norm I just don't see the need for 30 Body.

[TheImperialKhan]

Originally posted by Champsguy

That's fine for your games, but the people who wrote 5th Edition obviously don't consider mass to be one of the main factors in determining a character's body.

 

Sorry but I'm a dinosaur. Body was stated to represent Mass and Will to Live way back in Champions II twenty years ago and I see no reason to change that. If it ain't broken why try to fix it?

 

But if that's how TPTB want to play it that way they're certainly welcome to.

[Vigil]

to Agent X

 

Well, what can I say? Given your last post it seems that you are, in fact, delusional as to Cap's true nature and that's fine. In the final analysis all I can say is that the character you describe in your post at the top of this page isn't any Captain America that I have read about or seen portrayed in comics anywhere at any time. And that's fine too. What I would have liked though, before we'd begun this rather lengthy discussionis for you to preface your comments by stating that the Cap you were building and arguing for existed nowehre else save than in your own mind. that would have made things clear.

 

Vigil

[Agent X]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan

Not at all. Cap still has his agility to avoid the damage and his shield to soak it up if he gets tagged anyway. But if the shot gets past all of Cap's defenses then I think yes the attack should kill or cripple him. Way back during the SuperPatriot storyline they did a what if that had Cap killed by a single gunshot from an ordinary .38 caliber revolver. Such a weapon is nothing compared to what Ultron or the tank gun can dish out but it is capable of killing Cap. And really it should be, if only just barely capable.

 

A hero should be at risk from his foes. That's why in his own book Cap fights so many Highly Trained Normals and only rarely faces guys like Ultron, except when he is leading the Avengers. And then he plays what is largely a defensive game, attacking only when he sees an opening in his foes defenses and when he has manuevered that foe into a losing situation.

 

I'm sorry but unless you're running a campaign where really high powered attacks are the norm I just don't see the need for 30 Body.

Peak Human is 30 Body. Cap does face high powered threats, such as Ultron.

 

"But if the shot gets past all of Cap's defenses " The shot NEVER gets past his defenses. That's the point.

[Agent X]

Re: to Agent X

 

Originally posted by Vigil

Well, what can I say? Given your last post it seems that you are, in fact, delusional as to Cap's true nature and that's fine. In the final analysis all I can say is that the character you describe in your post at the top of this page isn't any Captain America that I have read about or seen portrayed in comics anywhere at any time. And that's fine too. What I would have liked though, before we'd begun this rather lengthy discussionis for you to preface your comments by stating that the Cap you were building and arguing for existed nowehre else save than in your own mind. that would have made things clear.

 

Vigil

Amazing how a disagreement about design philosophy gives you the right to call someone a munchkin or a delusional person. That's better suited to NGD.

 

You haven't made one substantive point in this post. It is merely laced with condescending hostility for someone who dares disagree with you.

 

I've brought up points like the standards in the game, the purpose of the high body (so Cap doesn't die), and the whole notion of "reasoning to effect." But, of course, you're way is the only way.

 

You know better than me and you know better than DOJ. Why? because you've always played body a certain way and it can't possibly be used to simulate something else. I'm always amazed at how inflexible some people view the building blocks of this game. Body can mean mass, will to life, mutant healing factor, or flat out luck.

 

What I tried to do was follow the published standards in building the character and keep in mind that Cap does fight Ultrons, Thanoses, Count Nefarias, and the like, and even when they hit him - they don't kill him.

 

Can a tank shell kill Captain America if it gets a direct hit? Yes. Should a tank shell ever get a direct hit? No. That's what the Body and his other defenses are for. Cap may come out of a fight helpless and badly injured but he doesn't die. That's why his book has gone on so long.

[TheImperialKhan]

Originally posted by Agent X

Peak Human is 30 Body. Cap does face high powered threats, such as Ultron.

 

"But if the shot gets past all of Cap's defenses " The shot NEVER gets past his defenses. That's the point.

 

Alright if that's way you want to be. Yes in the all-new revised 5th Edition of the Hero System, Peak Human is 30 Body. Never mind that for the 20+ years before 5th Ed. came out it was 20, now it's 30, There are you happy now?

 

Oh and if the shot NEVER gets past Cap's defenses then what's the point of having 30 Body? Yes I know the 30 Body is part of his defenses. The point that was trying to make with my original post was that there are other ways to show this besides just 30 Body and I've never seen it as necessary for Body to go that high. If that's the way you prefer it go ahead but don't insist that everyone do it that way.

[Vigil]

...further

 

Like TheImperialKhan, I'm a dinosaur also. I've been playing this game, through all of it's iterations since day 1.

 

Laying the mechanics aside, which is something that I don't believe we'll ever agree on I have to say that I find statements like "My Cap won't be killed by a tank shell..." to be truly disingenuous. One of the fundamental concepts, one of the pillars of Captain America's character (as The Imperial Khan pointed out) is that he is mortal. Underneath the mask, behind the chainmail and the shield he is a living, breathing, fallible human being who does what he does through sheer will and determination. If you're going to make Cap unkillable then you've gutted one of the essences of his character. From a role playing perspective it is the fact that Cap is mortal and killable and human and that he still marches in where angels fear to tread that makes him the consummate hero. And that's role playing. You mention the example of Cap and The Avenger's fighting Ultron and I mentioned the epic showdown between The Avengers and Michael. I think the commonality in both those is that Cap is playing beyond his league power wise but if you judged by spirit and will and determination then Cap is the heaviest Avenger of all. It's not whether or not he can survive Ultron's blasters or not (which I don't think he could anyway) but the mere fact that he's willing to put himself in harm's way to protect others. That's the essence of Cap. He's the consummate underdog, fighting on with skill and will and determination when all hope seems faded. It doesn't always pay off and Cap doesn't always come out on top but that's the essence of Captain America.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan

Alright if that's way you want to be. Yes in the all-new revised 5th Edition of the Hero System, Peak Human is 30 Body. Never mind that for the 20+ years before 5th Ed. came out it was 20, now it's 30, There are you happy now?

Peak Human was never 20. Normal Characteristic Maxima does not mean that a 21 is superhuman, only supernormal. Peak Human stats in 4th Edition, as far as I can tell, were never set. Apparently, an Olympic Champion Archer was capable of a 36 or 39? DEX though.

 

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan

Oh and if the shot NEVER gets past Cap's defenses then what's the point of having 30 Body? Yes I know the 30 Body is part of his defenses. The point that was trying to make with my original post was that there are other ways to show this besides just 30 Body and I've never seen it as necessary for Body to go that high. If that's the way you prefer it go ahead but don't insist that everyone do it that way.

Game Mechanic: Tank hits and rolls a 3 while Cap's shield is stuck in a tree or Master Man or somesuch is taunting him with it. Tank rolls 30 body on armor piercing attack. Cap's resistant defense from combat luck doesn't apply in this situation and his chain mail and You only nicked me! power only gives him 14 resistant divided by 2 for 7. Captain America takes 23 Body. Cap is down to 7 Body. Cap is thrown back 26" and slams into a brick wall that once was a building. 26 dice later and Cap has taken 1 more body. Thankfully his natural defenses, chain mail, and his you nicked me! power combined to absorb most of the impact. So, now Cap is at 6 Body. The Tank rolls a 5 on the stun multiplier so Cap is looking at 120 stun + the damage from the knockback. Cap is way down in the negatives when it comes to stun. In my game we usually don't bother with impairment or disabling rules but, in cases where a character has lost more than half his body and he is at -40+ stun - it seems a reasonable thing to use. Hit location rolls chest. Cap has lost d6 Strength and is basically comatose.

 

How does this work in game: Cap finds himself without his shield. The tank fires and Cap leaps up and rolls as the shell explodes. Any normal man would be dead but Cap reacted instinctively with amazing speed. The force of the blow causes Cap to careen into a brick wall. He has a concussion, is unconscious for hours if no one comes to his aid, and several ribs are broken. Fortunately, part of the roof of the wrecked building falls down over him to hide him from the gaze of the enemy. Unable to see a barely living, breathing Cap and unable to imagine him surviving such a blast, the villains depart leaving him for dead. Hours later, a little gypsy boy finds our hero and gets his uncle out to rescue Cap. After a few days convalescing, Cap checks the bandages to go back out into the fight and find the man who has his shield.

 

It could just as easily be someone like Count Nefaria hopped up on Ionic/Lazer/Superspeed Energy throwing a huge rka at Cap.

[Agent X]

Re: ...further

 

Originally posted by Vigil

Like TheImperialKhan, I'm a dinosaur also. I've been playing this game, through all of it's iterations since day 1.

 

Laying the mechanics aside, which is something that I don't believe we'll ever agree on I have to say that I find statements like "My Cap won't be killed by a tank shell..." to be truly disingenuous. One of the fundamental concepts, one of the pillars of Captain America's character (as The Imperial Khan pointed out) is that he is mortal. Underneath the mask, behind the chainmail and the shield he is a living, breathing, fallible human being who does what he does through sheer will and determination. If you're going to make Cap unkillable then you've gutted one of the essences of his character. From a role playing perspective it is the fact that Cap is mortal and killable and human and that he still marches in where angels fear to tread that makes him the consummate hero. And that's role playing. You mention the example of Cap and The Avenger's fighting Ultron and I mentioned the epic showdown between The Avengers and Michael. I think the commonality in both those is that Cap is playing beyond his league power wise but if you judged by spirit and will and determination then Cap is the heaviest Avenger of all. It's not whether or not he can survive Ultron's blasters or not (which I don't think he could anyway) but the mere fact that he's willing to put himself in harm's way to protect others. That's the essence of Cap. He's the consummate underdog, fighting on with skill and will and determination when all hope seems faded. It doesn't always pay off and Cap doesn't always come out on top but that's the essence of Captain America.

When doesn't Cap come out on top? Sometimes he's knocked out. Sometimes he's injured. The bad guys always lose in the end and Cap always heals up.

 

I am using a GAME MECHANIC to simulate this. Cap is no less heroic because his stats aren't what he sees. The GAME MECHANIC simulates that Cap doesn't die against these incredibly powerful threats. There is nothing about this that makes Cap less a hero other than you guys mixing up your ability to read character sheets with the character's inability to do the same. Cap knows a tank shell could directly hit him and kill him. I know the tank shell will not directly him him and kill him.

[Solomon]

I woudn't put Cap at over 20 BODY either, though I take a point for his willpower and determination. However, there's one case that could be made for having Cap at 30 BODY: Rob Liefeld's "art".

 

 

I mean, look at those huge man-boobs! Shouldn't they be worth at least 15 BODY apiece?

[Chuckg]

*ahem*

 

You stop that right now.