Someone has done it: The Captain America Thread

[Solomon]

Originally posted by Agent X

I'm not building Cap to import him into the Champions Universe. He has a much more interesting universe he is already a part of.

 

But you did refer to a table that is, incidentally, named "Champions Universe Characteristics Standards" So I presumed you were going to compare Caps to the Champions Universe.

 

Originally posted by Agent X

Superhuman in Champions Genre: 31 Str, 31 Dex, 31 Con, 31 Body, 51 Int...

 

Cap is at least as high as you can get without being superhuman - Str 30, Dex 30, Con 30, Body 30 - in Champions Genre

[Monolith]

My Cap would probably look something like this:

 

30 STR

30 DEX

30 CON

20 BODY

18 INT

24 EGO

50 PRE

16 COM

15 PD

12 ED

7 SPD

12 REC

60 END

60 STUN

[Chuckg]

The characters in CU are not to benchmark the highest prodigies of the Champions Universe, they're just a random selection -- mostly at the beginning or moderate levels of experience, to boot.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Solomon

But you did refer to a table that is, incidentally, named "Champions Universe Characteristics Standards" So I presumed you were going to compare Caps to the Champions Universe.

"On Body, I know a lot of people worry about that because of the way Champions characters are usually built but I have the freedom to ignore that in building a new universe. Frankly, I don't think the characters were built with bodies in the range of 10-20 because Body was horribly imbalancing. I think a lot of characters are built that way because buying up body is generally an inefficient way to spend points for maximum effect in a game where it's hard to kill people. Let me ask you this, how hard is it to kill Captain America?

 

I think it's pretty hard and if I want to help reflect that with Body that's just reasoning to effect."

 

I said this earlier. This is the reason why I have no problem with 30 being "maximum human" and I really couldn't care less if Cap has a higher body than Ironclad or Dark Seraph.

 

Let's read from pg. 58 of the Champions Genre Book shall we, "Since the Champions Universe is a typical four-color, high adventure sort of superhero setting, GMs can use these standards for similar types of campaigns if they want to."

 

Apparently, Cap's ability to withstand injury is legendary because that is just short of superhuman and Dark Seraph has a body that is competent and Ironclad, as well. Doctor Destroyer has a legendary body. Given that my Captain America, if finished, would cost over 1,000 points, I'm not at all surprised his body would be higher than that of Dark Seraph or Ironclad.

 

The benchmarks in Champions is pretty useful and I have no wish to weaken Marvel or DC characters so that my Champions 350 point characters feel like they have a chance to compete.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

My Cap would probably look something like this:

 

30 STR

30 DEX

30 CON

20 BODY

18 INT

24 EGO

50 PRE

16 COM

15 PD

12 ED

7 SPD

12 REC

60 END

60 STUN

Yeah, I'd raise Cap's Presence to 50 before I finished him. I still like having his intelligence at 21.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X

[bThe benchmarks in Champions is pretty useful and I have no wish to weaken Marvel or DC characters so that my Champions 350 point characters feel like they have a chance to compete. [/b]

In a self-contained universe it can make sense that Cap would have a 30 BODY. But when you try to "port" that character into cross universe material it does not make sense that he would have that 30 BODY. As far as I know there are only 5 characters who have a 30 BODY in the CU (Dr. Destroyer, Grond, The Monster, Takofane, and Gargantua at full growth). It does not seem logical to me that Cap is in that range as well.

 

I also have a feeling that Cap would die just as quickly from a shot to the heart as the next guy. Cap's main ability is to keep from getting hit through skill and the shield, not because he can absorb a lot of damage, IMO.

[Chuckg]

Ah, yes, but the special effect is that you didn't hit the heart on the first try, you just wounded him again and again until the BODY was finally all gone.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

In a self-contained universe it can make sense that Cap would have a 30 BODY. But when you try to "port" that character into cross universe material it does not make sense that he would have that 30 BODY. As far as I know there are only 5 characters who have a 30 BODY in the CU (Dr. Destroyer, Grond, The Monster, Takofane, and Gargantua at full growth). It does not seem logical to me that Cap is in that range as well.

 

I also have a feeling that Cap would die just as quickly from a shot to the heart as the next guy. Cap's main ability is to keep from getting hit through skill and the shield, not because he can absorb a lot of damage, IMO.

It doesn't seem logical to me that Dr. Destroyer, Grond, The Monster, Takofanes, and Gargantua aren't superhuman in body.

[Gary]

Telios has 30 body as well, which helps support Cap's case.

[Chuckg]

Supports it? *Nails* it. Teleios *IS* the peak of human physical perfection without actually going metahuman in Champions, by defintiion -- that's his concept!

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Supports it? *Nails* it. Teleios *IS* the peak of human physical perfection without actually going metahuman in Champions, by defintiion -- that's his concept!

Excellent point.

[Monolith]

One character (Teleios) does not a case make when there are literally a dozen of martial artists/mercenary Cap-like characters, none of which have a 30 BODY. Gladiator, for example, is a "super-soldier" with a 12 BODY.

 

I have no problem if someone wants to give Cap the 30 BODY. I just wouldn't. It doesn't fit within the concept of the established benchmarks. Even though Marvel is a separate universe, you would still want to be able to port Cap into the CU for an adventure or port some CU characters into the MU and have some consistancy, IMO.

[Chuckg]

Monolith -- none of the ones you listed are explicitly and rigidly defined as *THE* peak of human physical perfection.

 

Cap and Teleios both are.

 

Otherwise, I could say that Cap can't possibly have a DEX 30 SPD 7 because the original Star-Spangled Kid or The Patriot or etc. didn't either.

 

Not all flag-wearing patriotic fisticuff artists or super-soldiers are created equal.

[Enforcer84]

Originally posted by Hermit

Well, of COURSE... I mean, Johny maybe a rebel, but he's no flagburner!

 

Keep that stuff on the Non Gaming Boards, Herm:D

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Enforcer84

Keep that stuff on the Non Gaming Boards, Herm:D

 

Heh.. okay.

 

Though, really, I do recall a running gag in an Old Marvel RPG adventure I played in. I got to play Cap (Joy!) and for some reason, the 'messy' situations never hit my character. The Wolverine guy fell down a sewer, poor Spidey got gooped by the Trapster, and Daredevil got his horns burned.

 

By the end of that adventure, they noticed that my character, though he'd taken some hits, was as fresh as a daisy and sparkling clean comparitively.

 

Finally the Spidey player and Woverine player went Monty Python on me...

 

"Must be Captain America."

"How can you tell?"

"Hasn't got #### all over him."

 

So maybe there IS some strange karmic protection

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

One character (Teleios) does not a case make when there are literally a dozen of martial artists/mercenary Cap-like characters, none of which have a 30 BODY. Gladiator, for example, is a "super-soldier" with a 12 BODY.

 

I have no problem if someone wants to give Cap the 30 BODY. I just wouldn't. It doesn't fit within the concept of the established benchmarks. Even though Marvel is a separate universe, you would still want to be able to port Cap into the CU for an adventure or port some CU characters into the MU and have some consistancy, IMO.

Why in the world would 30 Body make the difference in portability? Are you planning on killing Captain America?

[Chuckg]

We are talking about the same Cap who the Punisher once shot in the sternum with a rifle bullet, and who still walked out of the hospital less than 2 days later, right?

 

(Granted, Cap had body armor on, but still -- it was a freaking 7.62x51mm hard-tip!)

[Hermit]

As one way to rationalize the BODY stat is as "Will to live" I can see Cap having a very high BODY indeed.

 

That man's got a lot of will...

 

(Of course, Hal Jordon by that arguement would also have had loads )

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hermit

As one way to rationalize the BODY stat is as "Will to live" I can see Cap having a very high BODY indeed.

 

That man's got a lot of will...

 

(Of course, Hal Jordon by that arguement would also have had loads )

I thought the old Mayfair DC gave Hal a decent body score.

[Chuckg]

Yes, but what Mayfair called Body, Champions would call Armor.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Agent X

I thought the old Mayfair DC gave Hal a decent body score.

 

Probably did. I wasn't dissing Hal, quite the opposite... I think it would work for him as well.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Yes, but what Mayfair called Body, Champions would call Armor.

Champions would call it Body and Armor.

[Vigil]

some thoughts on Cap

 

When I began playing Champions...decades ago...ye gods!, the first references which converted MU to Champs which I picked up was the Different World with Glen Thain's version of the X Men. Since it was published I took it to be approved and authoratative.

 

In the write ups, it placed Wolverine, the most Cap-like of the X Men at:

 

STR 28

DEX 26

CON 30

BOD 15

INT 14

EGO 13

PRE 20

COM 12

 

PD 22

ED 15

SPD 5

REC 15

END 60

STN 45

 

He, obviously, also had Regeneration and other stuff.

 

In another such apparently authorized column a couple of years later the Teen tiatns and Deathstroke were written up. Deathstroke read as follows:

 

STR 25 (seems way low to me, I would have gone 35 - 45)

DEX 30

CON 28

BOD 15

INT 30 (what the...what for?)

EGO 14 (seems low)

PRE 25 (again seems low)

COM 20

 

PD 15

ED 15

SPD 8

REC 12

END 56

STN 50

 

Then he had armor and his gadgets, etc.

 

Back then I took those write ups as the basis with which to start converting Marvel characters. Over the years my opinions have changed and grown but I still think those write ups are a good launching pad, if out of date.

 

Given that, I'd write up Cap, off the cuff, the following way:

 

STR 30

DEX 30

CON 25

BODY 15

INT 18

EGO 23

PRE 40 (Magneto had a 50 in his write up and I don't think Cap is quite that messianic)

COM 20

 

PD 18

ED 15

SPD 6

REC 13

END 50 (as we all know Cap never seems to tire but I think that's as much a function of Reduced END Cost and actual END)

STN 45

 

All in all he looks kinda like Wolvie and kinda like Deathstroke which to my mind makes sense since they're physically very comparable.

 

In reagrd to the many OHOTMU comments, I believe it says in there that Cap "possesses greater agility than any Olympic athlete who ever competed", which I think may argue for an even higher DEX but at the same time Deathstroke, who's supposed to be the absolute peak of human into the superhuman range has a 30 so I think 30 is fair.

 

As for SPD, well, again Deathstroke uses 95% of his brain capacity and is super augmented so he gets an 8, which puts him into the speedster range...makes sense. Wolvie is fast, but not blazingly quick - toughness is more his hallmark - so he gets a 5 which, incidentally, I take to be kinda baseline Marvel superhero SPD. I think Cap is in between so 6 seems apropos.

 

I think it's important to remember in discussing Cap as the peak of human potential that the Super Soldier serum didn't make him the peak right across the board. It did, more or less, physically but it didn't seem to augment him significantly mentally. Steve Rogers was always a geeky kinda bookworm so he was pretty bright to begin with.

 

As for EGO, well Cap has an iron will rivalled only by Thor and maybe Wanda in The Avengers so I think 23...beyond NCM and into the low end mentalist range is good. After all, he's strong willed but not formally schooled in mental combat and he's not in Professor X or Phoenix's league. At the outside 25 EGO is as high as I'd go with him. Plus he's have Mental Defense and Overall Levels which he can use for Ego Combat.

 

Beyond that I think my write up is kinda basic and middel of the road but I think it makes Cap playable and enjoyable without making the other characters superfluous. remeber Cap is certainly the best combatant in The Avengers...other than Thor and maybe Hercules but he's isn't an island unto himself in the scope of the team.

 

As for his powers, I haven't really thought about them but maybe I'll chart them out soon and post them for savaging, lol.

 

Anyway that's my opinion and you should stick to it.

 

Vigil

[Vigil]

and just to add a little bit of fuel to the fire

 

Here's an off the cuff but carefully considered version of Batman:

 

STR 25

DEX 28 (higher than Wolverine or Nightcrawler but lower than Cap)

CON 25

BODY 13

INT 38 (at the level of Magneto)

EGO 23 (same as Cap)

PRE 40 (same as Cap)

COM 24 (again just short of Magneto. I think it's the cool helmet that makes the difference)

 

PD 15 (he's on the high end of human tough)

ED 15

SPD 6

REC 12 (same as Magneto)

END 50

STN 40

 

Plus he's got gadgets and Martial Arts and other nifty stuff too.

 

Again, I think putting Bats in this range makes him unique and nuanced and dynamic but not a "munchkin". I think it's important to think of characters in light of the other characters around them and in the perspective of their world. Obviously a lot of the dynamic appeal of a charcter is in how they're played and what's done with the pile of points.

 

 

Vigil

[Solomon]

Originally posted by Agent X

It doesn't seem logical to me that Dr. Destroyer, Grond, The Monster, Takofanes, and Gargantua aren't superhuman in body.

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. Since apparently CU's published characters contraddict (your view of) CU's Characteristics Standards table, I choose to stick to published characters as a reference frame. Of course, pretty much everything in Champions is open to interpretation and customization, so we can finally agree to disagree and move on.