Someone has done it: The Captain America Thread

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Solomon

That's exactly what I'm saying. Since apparently CU's published characters contraddict (your view of) CU's Characteristics Standards table, I choose to stick to published characters as a reference frame. Of course, pretty much everything in Champions is open to interpretation and customization, so we can finally agree to disagree and move on.

So, four characters allow you to ignore a set of guidelines listed for the Champions Universe that has been published? Even though there has been a character specifically written and described as the "acme of human potential", Teleios, and this character is given a 30 body. You ignore Teleios and the guidelines that specifically address the issue and choose to emphasize that 4 characters should have more body. I think you need to raise their body if you want to be consistent with the Champions Universe's standards for superhuman body. I also think Dr. Destroyer should have some freaking knockback resistance and telescopic senses but that doesn't affect the guidelines at all.

 

"(your view of) CU's Characteristics Standards table" makes it sound like your saying there is more than one interpretation of the table. There isn't. Either you use it or you don't but the table means what it means.

[Solomon]

Originally posted by Agent X

So, four characters allow you to ignore a set of guidelines listed for the Champions Universe that has been published?

 

No, but several hundred published characters allow me to disagree with you on how to apply those guidelines.

Hundreds of published characters are much more informative than a 7-column table.

The table just says that if you got STR 31+, then you're labelled as a superhuman (whatever that means). The table doesn't say that if Smilin' Stan Lee says you're a paragon human specimen you're entitled to 30s scores across the board.

 

Originally posted by Agent X

Even though there has been a character specifically written and described as the "acme of human potential", Teleios, and this character is given a 30 body. You ignore Teleios and the guidelines that specifically address the issue and choose to emphasize that 4 characters should have more body.

 

Stan Lee's not an HERO Games writer. A character from a game supplement and a character from an unrelated comic just happen to have similar flavour text. This doesn't imply they perform equally well. I'd rather define characters by their performance; flavour text is misleading at worst, and uninformative at best.

 

Spiderman is defined as having "strength proportional to that of a spider", but I'm not going to check a typical tarantula's lifting capacity versus his body weight to find out Spidey's strength. Rather, I'm going to check what feats of strength he performs in his comics.

 

I'm not saying this is the "right" approach, I'm just saying this is the one I prefer. And I'd rather just agree to disagree and move on.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Solomon

No, but several hundred published characters allow me to disagree with you on how to apply those guidelines.

Hundreds of published characters are much more informative than a 7-column table.

The table just says that if you got STR 31+, then you're labelled as a superhuman (whatever that means). The table doesn't say that if Smilin' Stan Lee says you're a paragon human specimen you're entitled to 30s scores across the board.

 

 

 

Stan Lee's not an HERO Games writer. A character from a game supplement and a character from an unrelated comic just happen to have similar flavour text. This doesn't imply they perform equally well. I'd rather define characters by their performance; flavour text is misleading at worst, and uninformative at best.

 

Spiderman is defined as having "strength proportional to that of a spider", but I'm not going to check a typical tarantula's lifting capacity versus his body weight to find out Spidey's strength. Rather, I'm going to check what feats of strength he performs in his comics.

 

I'm not saying this is the "right" approach, I'm just saying this is the one I prefer. And I'd rather just agree to disagree and move on.

Okay. But the chart is the chart. And, if you use the chart, Cap has a 30 Body.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

I wouldn't give Cap across the board 30's either. STR 30 means you can lift a ton and Cap does NOT do that consistently. Likewise, I don't think Cap has a 30 INT or EGO either. He does have a good EGO, but 30 would make him the equal of Menton(and probably Professor X) and I'm not buying that. Cap probably DOES have PRE 30.....as he IS a living legend. I think his other stats are probably minimums of 20, except possibly BODY. Most would range between 20-30. SPD is between 5-7....take your pick. I think the All American(From Champions Universe) is a good starting point for building Cap. Cap's stats are better, but the concept is very close.

 

Rob

[Chuckg]

Somebody once showed me a page scan of Cap doing casual 500-lb curls. That's *not* STR 20.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Dr. MID-Nite

I wouldn't give Cap across the board 30's either. STR 30 means you can lift a ton and Cap does NOT do that consistently. Likewise, I don't think Cap has a 30 INT or EGO either. He does have a good EGO, but 30 would make him the equal of Menton(and probably Professor X) and I'm not buying that. Cap probably DOES have PRE 30.....as he IS a living legend. I think his other stats are probably minimums of 20, except possibly BODY. Most would range between 20-30. SPD is between 5-7....take your pick. I think the All American(From Champions Universe) is a good starting point for building Cap. Cap's stats are better, but the concept is very close.

 

Rob

Back in the 70s and 80s, Cap lifted a ton when he needed to, consistently. We were talking physical characteristics. The All American is a lousy character, IMO.

[Metaphysician]

Actually, to lift a ton, all you need is Str 25 ( no pushing ).

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

Actually, to lift a ton, all you need is Str 25 ( no pushing ).

I never set a ton as Cap's limits. I was responding to a post.

 

Doesnt' the conversion of 25 str to pounds come out to about 1,760 pounds? That's shy of a ton.

[Metaphysician]

According to the book, 25 Str = 800 kilograms, 2.2 pounds per kilogram, = 2000 pounds.

[Chuckg]

OK, STR 25 I'll accept for Cap.

[Vigil]

I agree

 

25 seems appropriate for Cap. If I recall correctly the issues that you are referring to were published in the early to mid seventies at which time Cap gained superhuman STR and toughness. Those increases were temporart and by the time of Avengers 170 had faded to the point where Cap had to exert himself to do the aforementioned 500 lbs curls. As an aside, the Beast in re-racking the weights did so with a mere 2 fingers and dangled the weight above his head. I don't know what that says for the Beasts STR but to do that gives him I think a score of somewhere around 38 or 40.

 

Vigil

[levi]

Re: I agree

 

Originally posted by Vigil

...As an aside, the Beast in re-racking the weights did so with a mere 2 fingers and dangled the weight above his head. I don't know what that says for the Beasts STR but to do that gives him I think a score of somewhere around 38 or 40.

 

Vigil

 

In the old Marvel game and Handbook Beast was listed as being able to lift little over a ton. Puting him in the 30-35 STR category for Champions

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

According to the book, 25 Str = 800 kilograms, 2.2 pounds per kilogram, = 2000 pounds.

2.2 x 800 = 1,600 + 160 = 1,760 pounds which is 240 pounds less than 2,000 pounds.

[Agent X]

Re: I agree

 

Originally posted by Vigil

25 seems appropriate for Cap. If I recall correctly the issues that you are referring to were published in the early to mid seventies at which time Cap gained superhuman STR and toughness. Those increases were temporart and by the time of Avengers 170 had faded to the point where Cap had to exert himself to do the aforementioned 500 lbs curls. As an aside, the Beast in re-racking the weights did so with a mere 2 fingers and dangled the weight above his head. I don't know what that says for the Beasts STR but to do that gives him I think a score of somewhere around 38 or 40.

 

Vigil

Cap throws objects around which are deceptively heavy without superhuman strength subplots all through the 80s. He's peak human and 30 is peak human in the Champions Guidelines. That's good enough for me.

[Gary]

One problem with giving Cap 30 body is that this affects stuff like Transformation attacks as well. Cap is certainly more resistant to being shot, but is he any better protected than the average big guy from being turned into a centipede?

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Gary

One problem with giving Cap 30 body is that this affects stuff like Transformation attacks as well. Cap is certainly more resistant to being shot, but is he any better protected than the average big guy from being turned into a centipede?

 

As anything, it can be rationalized, and in this case it's not even that big of a stretch.

 

Depending on the 'writer':

 

1) it could be seen as yet another demonstration of iron will. "He's resisting my spell? Impossible!"

2) A partial deflection with that shield, "Blast, I almost turned him to stone, but that cursed shield knocked away my grasp."

3) Some play up Cap's position as the symbol of the American Dream as quasi mystical, ordained by Fate, etc. Thus trying to transform him might be much more difficult than for the average hero.

 

All that aside, you can open that can of worms, but then you have someone asking just why so many Bricks are hard to transform either.

 

 

One could, I suppose, buy extra BODY with a limit like "Does not protect against Transform attacks; -1/4" with GM permission.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hermit

As anything, it can be rationalized, and in this case it's not even that big of a stretch.

 

Depending on the 'writer':

 

1) it could be seen as yet another demonstration of iron will. "He's resisting my spell? Impossible!"

2) A partial deflection with that shield, "Blast, I almost turned him to stone, but that cursed shield knocked away my grasp."

3) Some play up Cap's position as the symbol of the American Dream as quasi mystical, ordained by Fate, etc. Thus trying to transform him might be much more difficult than for the average hero.

 

All that aside, you can open that can of worms, but then you have someone asking just why so many Bricks are hard to transform either.

 

 

One could, I suppose, buy extra BODY with a limit like "Does not protect against Transform attacks; -1/4" with GM permission.

Transforms are a power that is so difficult to design with game balance in mind that it shouldn't be the reason to dictate other qualities of the game.

[Hermit]

Just saying that if one must have a rationale, it can be found.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hermit

Just saying that if one must have a rationale, it can be found.

I thought I was just reinforcing one of your points.

[pinecone]

Heck if transform is an issue...I have 30 body and I'm Vulnrable to transforms X2 effects....

[Vigil]

Yeah, but I think 30 BODY for Cap is way way out of line and isn't indicated at all by anything shown in comics. I think 15 BODY with around 10 points of Power Defense is more appropriate. Just because max human is defined one way in Champions doesn't mean that Cap should comform to that one definition. Earlier I gave the way I'd stat out Cap and i think something in that ranger...where he approaches theoretical human maxes in a couple of areas makes more sense, but to give him a BODY score on the level of superbricks makes no sense. Sucking up BODY is a brick's job but it isn't Cap's.

 

Vigil

[caris]

Part of the problem is that in many ways Body above a certain amount is actually the most underused Characteristic in Champions (I’m referring to the standard super-hero genre here, not Dark Champions, or a Heroic game). Dr. Destroyer and others that could/should legitimately by concept have higher Bodies simply don’t buy them, because they don’t need them. Really, how often in a Champions game is 30+ Body after defenses, actually happen to anyone/thing other than something the GM put in the game to be killed/destroyed? Particularly, if your character is already built with improved defenses?

[Starlord]

DEX is also poorly utilized. Does any official character have a DEX over 30? No one in the CU has superhuman DEX? By straight comparison, wouldn't that make Spider-Man have like a 50 DEX or something?

 

It does sometimes seem as though the 'standards chart' wasn't followed very well by Champions authors.

[Vigil]

Excuse my ignorance...but just what and where is this Standards Chart that is oft referred to here?

 

Vigil

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Vigil

Excuse my ignorance...but just what and where is this Standards Chart that is oft referred to here?

 

Vigil

 

Champions genre book, pg 58. I believe it might be somewhere else as well, though.