Someone has done it: The Captain America Thread

[JmOz]

Someone has once again stated that Cap's stat's should be (In relationship to NCM, so let's sound off on it

 

So what should Cap's stats be, here are my thoughts, note I give ranges as it depends on who is writing him)

 

Dex: 23-27 (25)

Str: 20-30 (25)

Con: 25-30 (28)

Body: 15-20 (18)

Int: 13-18 (16)

Ego: 15-30 (23)

Pre: 25-35 (30)

Com: 14-20 (17)

 

PD: 8-12 (10)

ED: 8-12 (10)

Spd: 4-8 (6)

Rec: 10-15 (13)

End: 50-100 (75)

Stun: 40-60 (50)

[Battlestaff]

I would think a higher SPD, but otherwise looks good.

[Monolith]

Cap's stats are in direct relation to whatever power-levels you are using in your game. In the Champions Universe he would probably have 30 STR, DEX, CON. In an Dark Champions game those stats will be in the 25 range. In a straight-forward game he would be given the 20 stat maximums.

 

I will point out though, as I always do in threads such as this, that NCM does not mean Maximum Characteristic, it just means the point where people are required to pay double for increased characteristics. It does not mean someone with NCM cannot have a 30 DEX, it just means they must pay 60 points for the 10 over 20.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Someone has done it: The Captain America Thread

 

Originally posted by JmOz

Someone has once again stated that Cap's stat's should be (In relationship to NCM, so let's sound off on it

 

So what should Cap's stats be, here are my thoughts, note I give ranges as it depends on who is writing him)

 

Dex: 23-27 (25)

Str: 20-30 (25)

Con: 25-30 (28)

Body: 15-20 (18)

Int: 13-18 (16)

Ego: 15-30 (23)

Pre: 25-35 (30)

Com: 14-20 (17)

 

PD: 8-12 (10)

ED: 8-12 (10)

Spd: 4-8 (6)

Rec: 10-15 (13)

End: 50-100 (75)

Stun: 40-60 (50)

 

I'd keep towards the lower end for the physical characteristics, but the upper end for the mental ones. Speed 7. PD/ED of only 8-9, but he'd also have combat luck anyway.

[Stray Cat]

Please define "straight-forward game." Do mean a straight conversion of the Marvel Universe?

 

As for NCM, I wouldn't think that PCs would normally have that disad in a Champions game. Surely Cap wouldn't since he's had the serum-stuff. Would he?

 

(Just an Ignorant) Cat

 

Originally posted by Monolith

Cap's stats are in direct relation to whatever power-levels you are using in your game. In the Champions Universe he would probably have 30 STR, DEX, CON. In an Dark Champions game those stats will be in the 25 range. In a straight-forward game he would be given the 20 stat maximums.

 

I will point out though, as I always do in threads such as this, that NCM does not mean Maximum Characteristic, it just means the point where people are required to pay double for increased characteristics. It does not mean someone with NCM cannot have a 30 DEX, it just means they must pay 60 points for the 10 over 20.

[Agent X]

Superhuman in Champions Genre: 31 Str, 31 Dex, 31 Con, 31 Body, 51 Int...

 

Cap is at least as high as you can get without being superhuman - Str 30, Dex 30, Con 30, Body 30 - in Champions Genre

 

I believe speed is rated at being superhuman at 8 or above so Cap would have a 7.

 

However, Cap's skill levels would allow him to perform various maneuvers to be very effective with his 7 speed.

 

If you don't like these stats, that's okay, you've come up with your own genre - not the one described in the Champions Genre Book.

 

If you want to debate that your genre is better, cool.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Stray Cat

Please define "straight-forward game." Do mean a straight conversion of the Marvel Universe?

By straight-forward I mean a game which does not normally allow characteristics above the NCM. There a many people who only play the game by not allowing "normal" heroes to ever go over 20, no matter what the reasoning.

 

As for NCM, I wouldn't think that PCs would normally have that disad in a Champions game. Surely Cap wouldn't since he's had the serum-stuff. Would he?

There are superhero characters who have the NCM Disadvantage. They are not common, but they do exist. I personally save that Disadvantage for characters who use focuses to augments characteristics (Ironman, for example). I would not normally allow it on a regular superhero because I do not think a 20 stat 4 SPD character would survive long in the CU.

 

As for Cap's stats, I use the guidelines in Champions for the Champions Universe. My Cap would be along the same lines as the example Agent X sited.

[Blue]

I've got to say that STR isn't relative. Maybe some of the other items are. But STR is probably the one item that can be statted out because I believe how much he can lift is listed in the "Handbook of the Marvel Universe".

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Blue

I've got to say that STR isn't relative. Maybe some of the other items are. But STR is probably the one item that can be statted out because I believe how much he can lift is listed in the "Handbook of the Marvel Universe".

The OHOTMU is frighteningly inconsistent with the comic books and that was when it was current. Thor, for example, has demonstrated lifting capacity far in excess of the 100-200 ton range. Captain America has demonstrated the ability to lift more than 800 pounds. Hercules was able to drag Manhattan back into place.

 

Now, I know some will begin the "he was pushing" argument but I save the "he was pushing" argument for captions that make it obvious he was pushing. Cap has lifted heavy motorcycles and tossed them rediculous distances for someone who is supposed to be only able to lift 800 pounds, and he appeared to do it with little effort, no straining.

 

Now, Thor may not be able to lift as much as Superman but when Superman, Black Adam, and Captain Marvel are all able to throw Cleopatra's Needle to escape velocity I'm thinking Thor is able to lift more than 200 tons, at least just to stay close enough to their range to make the crossovers interesting.

 

OHOTMU doesn't work.

[Blue]

It's not that the OHOTMU doesn't work, it's that none of the writers, creators, etc. ever bother to consult it. Not that I blame them... If I were writing a scene where Spiderman had to be able to throw the refrigerator the length of the football field in order to complete the scene then I'm not going to care what the book says; I'm just going to finish the scene.

 

But I think the OHOTMU is a very good guide to such things. It gives you the opportunity to stack one hero up against the next in "I didn't know Elektra could beat Daredevil arm-wrestling" fashion. (Not that she can--I don't know, I just made that one up).

 

If you really want to make Cap's stats fluctuate with the type of campaign, then at least you can use the OHOTMU to compare him in regards to the others. But I'd just use the figure if I were designing him.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Blue

It's not that the OHOTMU doesn't work, it's that none of the writers, creators, etc. ever bother to consult it. Not that I blame them... If I were writing a scene where Spiderman had to be able to throw the refrigerator the length of the football field in order to complete the scene then I'm not going to care what the book says; I'm just going to finish the scene.

 

But I think the OHOTMU is a very good guide to such things. It gives you the opportunity to stack one hero up against the next in "I didn't know Elektra could beat Daredevil arm-wrestling" fashion. (Not that she can--I don't know, I just made that one up).

 

If you really want to make Cap's stats fluctuate with the type of campaign, then at least you can use the OHOTMU to compare him in regards to the others. But I'd just use the figure if I were designing him.

The OHOTMU is not the character bible and the characters have consistently outperformed the strength measurements in the OHOTMU. The guys who wrote that have forced people to make a distinction between REAL Tons and MARVEL Tons.

[Chuckg]

I think that if I were writing up Cap, I'd use the "peak of human potential" statement to mean "all physical stats are at Human Legendary maaximum as defined by the table on page 58 of the Champions sourcebook."

 

IOW...

 

STR 30

DEX 30 (*)

CON 30

BODY 30

 

[skip]

 

PD 15

ED 15

SPD 7

REC 12 (or possibly 13)

END 60

STUN 60

 

Also, 1/2 END on STR and Running

 

That's what the full original version of the Super-Soldier Serum gives, IMO -- add on experience points from here.

 

(Not to the physical stats... to Skills, Powers, Fcci, Contacts, mental attributes, etc.)

 

Comments?

 

 

 

 

(*) He will have a nice selection of Combat Skill Level, of course.

[death tribble]

I'd make Int at least 18 to get the favourable break on INT/5.

[Starlord]

I agree with ChuckG's stats, Agent X's points about OHOTMU, and Monolith's take on superheroes using the NCM advantage.

 

Debate over.

 

Now, if anyone can devise a good writeup for Cap's Shield, then I'll be impressed.

[Chuckg]

I'm not going to do actual points, largely 'cause I'm in a hurry and lazy. But the #'s can be filled in...

 

The Mighty Shield (Multipower, OAF)(*)

 

x u +lots OCV w/ Block, OAF Shield

 

x u Missile Deflection vs. All Ranged Attacks, +lots OCV, can cover Adjacent Hex (+1/2), OAF Shield

 

x u 10d6 or so EB, Indirect (+1/2, always originates from attacker, can be bounced back from any angle)(**), OAF Shield

 

(edit -- damn, almost forgot)

 

x u +however-many-d6 Hand-To-Hand Attack, OAF Shield (not too many d6, though, Cap does enough damage as is and we don't want him to be using the shield to cut through Ultron or something)

 

Unbreakable Universal Focus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(*) The reason Cap almost never gets Disarmed of his shield is simply because very few people can successfully execute a Disarm, Grab, or Takeaway maneuver against him. But if Joe Agent were holding it, Cap could just walk up and snatch it back from him... Lord knows that's happened once or twice. Hence, OAF... Cap's ability to retain it under almost any circumstances is a power *he* has, not the shield.

 

(**) Again, if Joe Agent is holding the shield, he can throw it at only one thing at a time. /Cap/ can do the huge multi-bounce not because it's a shield power, but because he bought an assload of Penalty Skill Levels with Rapid Fire, shield only.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X

The OHOTMU is not the character bible and the characters have consistently outperformed the strength measurements in the OHOTMU. The guys who wrote that have forced people to make a distinction between REAL Tons and MARVEL Tons.

I have never used the OHOTMU STR stats for anything. The only relevancy they have is just in deciding who is stronger than who. I've seen Sasquatch lift ground oil tankers back into the water. I've seen Sasquatch throw a 747. I've seen Gladiator pick up the Baxter Building. I have seen Ironman and Thor pick up and move Avenger's Mansion. The 100 ton limit on STR caught as many writers for Marvel by surprise as it did fans.

[Guest Champsguy]

Cap with 30 stats good. Cap with low stats bad.

 

Another problem with the OHOTMU is that it was inconsistent with prior published works. Even the writers of the book stated that it was inaccurate (apparently an editorial decree from Marvel at the time is responsible).

 

This would be my writeup of Cap's shield:

Missile Deflection, deflect adjacent, + several OCV levels

+3 DCV to represent Cap casually (i.e., not using an action) deflecting attacks

xD6 Energy Blast

40/40 x3 Hardened Force Wall, one hex only, no range, only against Area Effect attacks and other appropriate uses* (-1)

 

*The "other appropriate uses are things that an indestructible shield could theoretically be used for, but don't come up often. I.e., wedging open a closing door, etc.

[Chuckg]

Champsguy -- the reason I avoided the Force Wall is because it would mean that theoretically, a powerful enough attack could break through the shield...

 

... and i don't think that even 10d6 RKAs where the guy got lucky and rolled all 6's should be allowed to break through the shield.

 

Hence, my reliance on "all or nothing" defense maneuvers... Missile Deflects and Blocks.

 

The +3 DCV "casual defense" slot is a good idea, however. Add that on to my multipower concept as well.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Champsguy -- the reason I avoided the Force Wall is because it would mean that theoretically, a powerful enough attack could break through the shield...

 

... and i don't think that even 10d6 RKAs where the guy got lucky and rolled all 6's should be allowed to break through the shield.

 

Hence, my reliance on "all or nothing" defense maneuvers... Missile Deflects and Blocks.

 

The +3 DCV "casual defense" slot is a good idea, however. Add that on to my multipower concept as well.

 

Good point. I guess I should say the reason I chose 40/40 is because that's from my writeup of Cap, as he runs around in my writeup of the Marvel Universe. 10D6 RKAs that are Area Effect aren't all that common there. The only thing I can think of in that class is Johnny Storm's Nova Flame.

 

Besides, even if they broke the Force Wall, they wouldn't break the shield. You'd just have Cap taking Stun (lots and lots of Stun, but still just Stun). I needed a way for him to be safe from AE attacks (and I didn't want to go with Desolid).

[Chuckg]

As for Missile Deflecting area effect attacks...

 

There already is 5e precedent that if the special effect for an Area Effect attack is projectile-based -- such as a grenade -- you're still allowed to Missile Deflect the grenade /if/ your special effect for your Missile Deflect would be plausible, and /if/ you can reach it before the grenade detonates.

 

So Cap putting the shield up and hunching down to avoid a fragmentation blast is an allowable use of Missile Deflect, as is, without needing a new power slot. (The DM would probably invoke the special effect rule to say that Cap would have to rp being crouched down that Phase, however).

 

As for AE attacks defined as wide beam cones...

 

.. the shield *doesn't* usually stop those, one contrary incident to the contrary. Dive for Cover, Cap, it's something else you do really really well.

 

 

 

Edit -- actually, what I was afraid of was some ungodly high-dice non-area-effect RKA -- such as, oh, a railgun -- that would do *Body* damage to Cap through the shield, which is possible if they get a lucky enough KA roll. 40 is damn high, but we've seen it beat occasionally.

 

This I did not like. Cap *NEVER EVER* takes Body damage from an attack the shield successfully blocks. Nev-er. I won't accept it. Either it went around the shield or, at most, it only does Knockback.

 

Bugger, you can't take KB from a successfully Blocked or Deflected shot... that's it! *scribbles down -1/4 limitation on Missile Deflect -- "still takes Knockback".

[Rune]

Adding to the capabilities of Cap's shield without actually pointing it out, I would add some basic armor (PD/ED) to represent those cases where the baddy actually hits Cap but he gets the shield in the way. The shield takes some, but not all, of the damage. I would also add armor that applies against Explosions, Area Effects and Damage Shields. When Cap uses the shield to punch the Porcupine, he isn't hurt by Porky's damage shield.

[Chuckg]

We could use the Armor slot to replace the +3 DCV "Casual Defense" slot?

 

That way, if Cap uses the 'casual defense' slot and gets hit with a big one, the special effect is that the shield was only partly brought up in time. That would jibe with my last post and still work.

 

And yes, link the "Casual Defense" Armor slot with the HA slot.

[Chuckg]

*LOL*

 

I just had an odd thought...

 

The Mighty Shield might be the only case of Combat Luck ever bought on a Focus.

 

(Yes, I know, CL doesn't stop damage from Damage Shields... except when you're using Unbreakable weapon foci! )

[JmOz]

On Cap's shield I personaly would use the ILLEGAL build of a HA bought with range, I perfer to build thrown blunt objects like this with that as it allows the STR add...

[Monolith]

I just use the verion DOJ posted to their website 2 years ago. It's also possible there will be a newer version published in the Gadget book in a few months.