Nightmask Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 ...is there really that much difference? Is there or will be an addenium or expanion available? My shelves are getting full, more and more Hero material. Do I need to get a storage unit in the future? I have an addition on my house just for my other *sneezes AD&D* gaming libary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 I've moved this because it's not a rules question, and other fans might wish to offer their opinions. Absolutely you should get 5E; it's much better. We don't have any plans for any sort of "addendum" or "expansion" from 4E to 5E. I believe a couple of fans keep lists of changes and additions on their websites, but they're bare-bones lists without any game information. I think an expansion for your Hero stuff would be well worth it! We have 18 books on our schedule for this year, and probably the same for next year, so there's lots of yummy Hero goodness heading your way just as fast as we can dig new tunnels in the book mines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 The differences between 4e and 5e are as vast and subtle as the differences between AD&D 2nd edition and D&D 3.5. IOW, by all means, *YES*, buy the damn thing. It's worth it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzinbane Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 I'd say get FRED at least. The Expansions on Fred are good too, but you can use much of the earlier material (meaning 4th edition) for character ideas, scenarios for GMing, etc. The old Dark Champions book for example works fine still - you'd have to modify characters a bit to conform with FRED but the basics of the old book itself are valid. Sigh. I know about the book space issue not to mention costs adding! HERO needs a subscription service to all manuals - with a nice discount or something! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitz Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 I would say, if you have the money available for it, get Fred. The feel and overall application of the rules hasn't been changed at all, but a lot of stuff has been tidied up and rationalized, and there are a *lot* more explanations and examples to make it easier for the neophyte to comprehend how things work.. I would probably still be quite happy running my campaigns in 4th Ed. (and in fact, I'm still using pretty much exactly the same house rules for Fred as I did for 4th), but Fred feels a lot tighter as a technical manual. If I had to go back, I would, but I wouldn't be completely joyful about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 SHAMELESS PLUG! If you'd like some analysis of what has changed and what that means, I maintain a list at the following link. Note that the list is vague on the details -- that's not an accident. It's intended to help people understand the update and decide whether or not to purchase it, not to allow them to bypass the purchase Since this borders on a solicitation, let me assure you I don't get paid for hits or anything -- in fact I pay to keep the ads off. Linkage! There's an email link on the site if you have any comments, questions, or corrections -- just remember my "cover as much as possible without getting too detailed" boilerplate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 Not to worry, Emerged -- after all, I referred to your list in my own post, albeit not by precise name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Originally posted by Steve Long Not to worry, Emerged -- after all, I referred to your list in my own post, albeit not by precise name. Thanks, but... /humor on Steve, telling *me* not to worry is a waste of time. That's what I am, that's what I do /humor off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicGladiator Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Someone bought the 5th Edition rules for me as a Christmas present. I had seen a copy and felt the changes were not significant enough to merit buying it, though I was glad to see a rulebook back in print, and I've tried to support the new HERO by picking up supplements. I'm not a game mechanic, so the tweaking of various costs didn't interest me much. I've played Champions for years, and I have a sense of what is going to unbalance a campaign that's not really based on costs of power points. Points are a nice yardstick and help you enforce some things, but 4th edition rules are adequate for that. In my experience it's mainly certain PLAYERS who you have to watch carefully, not so much the powers, if you get my meaning. The greatest, most useful thing in 5th Edition to me is the beautifully detailed index so that you can find things quickly. I love that feature. Some powers, etc. have been more thoroughly defined with extra options and "adders". But there's nothing conceptually new that couldn't have been done before under the 4th Edition. It's an improvement in clarity and mathematical balance overall, and that's appreciated. There's greater detail about most things, but the downside is that it's even more cumbersome and overwhelming for a new player to try to grasp. The old rules ran about 215 pages with a 70-page sourcebook. This hits 360, and its just rules, no sourcebook or characters. Yet I'm glad I have the 5th Edition. And one of the main reasons is the HeroDesigner version 2. It's is so much better than previous character-creation software that I used in the past. I really like using it. I too have tons of HERO expansions/supplements. Of late, I have picked up The Ultimate Vehicle, the UNTIL Database and Shades of Black in recent months. They're all well-done, a cut above previous HERO supplements in production values. But be warned when buying new adventures. Write-ups for the major characters in Shades of Black are not included with the adventure. You have to buy them separately in the Killers & Conquerors enemy book and the Champions supplement. I understand that's also true for the Champions Battleground supplement, though I don't have the book. Overall, the real value for me in the 5th Edition is that it sparked my interest to drag out my battlemat and play Champions again. And that's worth a heck of a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 I'd say the rules changes are not nearly as big as the change from D&D 2nd to D&D 3rd, but their bigger than from D&D 3rd to D&D 3.5. Perhaps about the same as D&D 1st to D&D 2nd. But enough with the comparisons to D&D. That's like comparing an upgrade to a Yugo to an upgrade to a Cadillac. (Uh, D&D is the Yugo, in case that wasn't clear.) I'd say that the rules changes alone may or may not be worth the purchase, but there's more than the rules changes. The way the book is written and organized, the overall design philosophy of the system, and let's not forget the most important part of any RPG book: The Index! Let me say that again for emphasis: The most important part of any RPG book is the INDEX! An RPG book without an index is a sandwich without bread - still tasty perhaps, but a horrible mess. For all you RPG writers out there, read that line again over and over until you get it. Set these words which I command you this day upon your heart. Speak of them in your home and on your way, when you lie down and when you rise up. Bind them as a sign upon your hand. Let them be a symbol before your eyes. Inscribe them on the doorposts of your house, and on your gates. Sorry. I got a little carried away there. And sorry also for another D&D comparison: with 3.5 out, you know that 3.6 can't be too far off, but with HERO, you know that it'll be a looooong time before we'll see a 6th edition. Because there are still lots of things broken in deendee 3.5 (according to people I know who play it), but there's relatively very little to complain about with FREd. And besides, it will take a which to come up with the 6th edition book nickname. BBB, FREd, ...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 An RPG book without an index is a sandwich without bread - still tasty perhaps, but a horrible mess. For all you RPG writers out there, read that line again over and over until you get it. Set these words which I command you this day upon your heart. Speak of them in your home and on your way, when you lie down and when you rise up. Bind them as a sign upon your hand. Let them be a symbol before your eyes. Inscribe them on the doorposts of your house, and on your gates. You're preaching to the wrong crowd, Phil. The writer has nothing to do with the index; that's the work of the editors and the companies. I've written about a hundred game books and supplements, but I never prepared the index for one until I took over Hero -- because I have no idea what will remain in the manuscript, or where it will be placed. That's all up to those fiendish editors. But your basic sentiment is spot-on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by PhilFleischmann And besides, it will take a which to come up with the 6th edition book nickname. BBB, FREd, ...? /humor on I thought that was already decided? Sixth Editorial Expansion? /humor off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCUBA Hero Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 How about Sixth EXpansion? 'Have you bought a copy of SEX yet?' 'No, but it's first on my list!' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kolava Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Forgive my ignorance, but what does FRED actually stand for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by Kolava Forgive my ignorance, but what does FRED actually stand for? Nothing, really. In the days prior to H5E's release, people were pondering what to call it as a nickname. (The 4th Edition was called the "BBB," which stood for "Big Blue Book.") Steve made a joking comment in passing to the effect of, "You can call it "Fred" for all I care, as long as you buy a copy." Presto. Everyone was calling it "Fred." After the fact, some folks started devising acronyms to fit it. The most popular seem to be "Fifth Rules EDition" or "Fifth Revised EDition." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 "You can call it "Fred" for all I care, as long as you buy a copy." As usual, I feel compelled to add my caveat: I was being funny, there was a smiley face. When people reprint it, I always sound like Montgomery Burns. I blame the media!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by Steve Long As usual, I feel compelled to add my caveat: I was being funny, there was a smiley face. Well, yeah. That's why I described it as a "joking comment." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengal Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Oh Steve, there's nothing wrong with Monty Burns. In all his curmudgeonly decrepitude, he's one of the funniest characters on the Simpsons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Steve Long You're preaching to the wrong crowd, Phil. The writer has nothing to do with the index; that's the work of the editors and the companies. I've written about a hundred game books and supplements, but I never prepared the index for one until I took over Hero -- because I have no idea what will remain in the manuscript, or where it will be placed. That's all up to those fiendish editors. Well, you're following the advice of a character from Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle who was a professional book indexer. She said, "Never index your own book." Apparently, it reveals a lot about yourself, unless you really know what you're doing. She was very embarrassed on behalf of another character who had written a book and indexed it himself, because she could tell just from reading the index, that he was gay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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