Handing out Disadvantages

[Richard Logue]

Transform (Major; Improved Target Group: Almost Anything) is the first answer that jumps out at me, but you all might think of something else....

 

I'm coming up with a character design. One of her powers is forcing Disadvantages, specifically Vulnerabilities, upon the target. For example, she can thrust a 1 1/2 x STUN Vulnerability to Fire-based attacks Disadvantage onto her opponent. Now the opponent takes more damage from fire.

 

Is there a way to do this without a Transform? If it requires a Transform, what do you feel should be some limits (and Limitations) placed on the power to keep it from becoming out of control?

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

IMO an easier way to do this would be with a limited version of Supress or Drain targed against defensive powers.

 

The net effect of having a vulnerability is that the target takes more damage vs incoming attacks.

 

Drain vs All Defensive Powers (2d6) Expanded Effect (+2), Powers only considered drained vs. Single SFX of Attack (-1) 60 active & 30 real.

[Arthur]

Sounds like an unnecessarily complex way to dish out more damage. Just buy up the attack. Or buy it AP and/or Penetrating, with the special effect of induced Vulnerability.

[Arthur]

Re: Handing out Disadvantages

 

My first thought was "Why"? I mean, why bother with this much complexity? You can get the same effect by simply increasing the number of dice of attack by 1.5.

 

Hate to be cynical, but one reason would be a sneaky way to exceed campaign damage limits. If the game has a 12 DC cap, then you could get an effect 18 DC this way.

 

This is why I really don't know if I like things like AP caps and such. It's a point-based system - that should be sufficient. If the characters are too powerful, reduce the points. Nothing wrong with 100+150 or even 125+75. If someone makes a one-dimensional character, that should carry its own drawbacks somehow due to the lack of points spent elsewhere.

[Wormhole]

Re: Handing out Disadvantages

 

Originally posted by Richard Logue

Transform (Major; Improved Target Group: Almost Anything) is the first answer that jumps out at me, but you all might think of something else....

 

I'm coming up with a character design. One of her powers is forcing Disadvantages, specifically Vulnerabilities, upon the target. For example, she can thrust a 1 1/2 x STUN Vulnerability to Fire-based attacks Disadvantage onto her opponent. Now the opponent takes more damage from fire.

 

Is there a way to do this without a Transform? If it requires a Transform, what do you feel should be some limits (and Limitations) placed on the power to keep it from becoming out of control?

First Question: What's the special effect of this power?

 

Second Question: How do you plan to use it ingame? Are you only using it so your character can dish out more damage or will you also use it to "soften up" a target for a teammate? If the former, I'd recomend just sticking to something as simple as Find Weakness or an Armor Piercing Advantage. If the later, I might approve a power like this if the special effect of the power justifies the construct (see above). Though as others pointed out, A DEF Drain might be a better choice.

[Richard Logue]

To answer the questions...

 

First off, I'm the GM of the game, and this character is an NPC hero I'm creating. Its not a player's character so I'm not really worried about AP caps.

 

Secondly, the purpose isn't simply to cause more damage. For that, there are any number of obvious answers: Penetrating, AP, more DC's, etc.

 

The purpose is to build a power that fits the concept. She's a mystically-based super whose "spells" affect others in various adverse ways without causing direct harm. She herself has no directly offensive powers. She can, however, affect an opponent so that her teammates can be more effective against them. The discussed power to bestow Vulnerabilities upon her foes is one of the ways she can accomplish this.

 

She makes adverse effects upon others. I was thinking about calling her Hex, but I think its too short of a name. Witchfire was another choice, but I'm not real happy with it. It has the ring of being overused.

 

Anyway... Vanderbilt's suggested a decent alternative and I'm mulling it over versus the way I have it built with the Transform. But I'm also wondering if it can be built (fitting the concept) in any other way.

 

And, I'm interested in discussing what would be reasonable limits and Limitations placed on the power.

 

As a side question, but hoping not to derail my own topic, help me come up with a better name for her?

[Insaniac99]

first rule for a GM controlled NPC: Plot device

 

don't worry about writing it up as a power, just say "poof, the ray hits you, but you don't feel any differant" and give the player a note saying that they just got a mystery disadvantage, and reveal it as a weakness later on, or soemthing.. no sense in writing it up if you are the GM.

[caris]

Well, an alternative could be an odd Aid construct that effects everyone around the target with the correct special effect. Just limit it so that the bonus points from the Aid only apply to attacks directed at the target.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

I’ve had two another idea as well.

 

Hex Bolt EB (10d6) Trigger (+1/2), Variable SFX (+1/2) [Variable SFX Must Match Follow-up Attack By Teammate (-1)], Dice in EB limited to number of dice rolled by Teammate’s attack (-1/4). 100 active points. 70 real.

 

With this setup Hex girl fires her power off … and nothing seems to happen to the target. However when one of her teammates attacks a separate, matching, EB up to 10d6 goes off.

 

You could add Variable Advantage to this setup too if you need too to match AP blasts or some such by teammates. This attack could also make this a continuous uncontrolled power if you want it to last through several blasts from her teammates.

 

The downside to this setup is that it is less effective against high defense targets since her Hex and her teammates blasts will be applied separately. The advantage is that it’s an instant power & is much simpler than the Drain bookkeeping wise.

 

…

 

And Insaniac99 if that works for your group more power to all of you ... but personally I hate playing under GMs who operate like that. This is my personal bias but IMO the HERO system is capable of doing just about anything. Already in this thread alone we have had 4 different build suggestions. As a player it always ticks me off when the PCs have to play by the rules but GM NPCs don't. If they can hand wave why can't my PC? Also when I GM writing up powers give me as a much better idea of how balanced a particular idea is ahead of time. It can make the difference between running a memorable fight and one that is a stompfest either for or against the heroes.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Handing out Disadvantages

 

Originally posted by Richard Logue

Transform (Major; Improved Target Group: Almost Anything) is the first answer that jumps out at me, but you all might think of something else....

 

I'm coming up with a character design. One of her powers is forcing Disadvantages, specifically Vulnerabilities, upon the target. For example, she can thrust a 1 1/2 x STUN Vulnerability to Fire-based attacks Disadvantage onto her opponent. Now the opponent takes more damage from fire.

 

Is there a way to do this without a Transform? If it requires a Transform, what do you feel should be some limits (and Limitations) placed on the power to keep it from becoming out of control?

 

Transform, but rather than Almost Anything, set it to "Person into version of Person w/ Vulnerability Disadvantage".

 

I asked Steve a ? about adding Age to someone a long time ago on the Q/A Board and he basically said treat the Disad that you are adding as a Power you are trying to add for purpose of the number of Extra Body you need to affect IIRC.

[Jhamin]

One of the Supreme Serpent decoys from Viper 4th (an android in a nice suit as I recall) had this exact power. It was bought as a transform "People without vulnerability to electricity to people with x2 from electric attacks".

He was so over the top anyway that active point limits didn't really apply, but the thing that always struck me about it was that it was just mean .

 

When characters take a big hit, the Players deal with it.

If a charcter gets nailed with a transform to mess with his character, then gets hit by a power he is now vulnerable to, that will just stick in his craw.

[PhilFleischmann]

I've done this many times, and I've posted on these boards many times about how I've done it, and I'm sure I'll post this suggestion again many times in the future because everyone seems to ignore it.

 

I use Drain. The idea is that taking away points of power is comparable to putting on points of disad. If you want to bestow a 20-point Disadvantage, you need 20 points of accumulated effect from your Drain. Usually, you'll want to add "Slow Return Rate" to make it last a while.

 

I usually do this with Physical Limitations. I had a villain that could make people blind, deaf, unable to walk, etc., in a multipower of Drains.

 

With this method, I consider Vulnerabilities and Susceptibilities to be "Defensive Disadvantages," so the effect of an Adjustment Power is halved, just like it would be for Defensive Powers.

 

I find this method to be very well balanced because:

 

1) The cost is proportional to the effect created. Just like a 2 DC attack costs less than a 4 DC attack, bestowing a 10 point disad costs less than bestowing a 20 point disad.

 

2) It has nothing to do with the amount of BODY the target has. Why should making a 30 BODY Brick blind be more difficult than making a 10 BODY Martial Artist blind?

 

3) It can be countered by other appropriate Adjustment Powers such as Aid, Succor, and Healing.

 

Transform has none of these properties.

 

I do this with other Adjustment Powers as well. I have a mentalist who can Aid you to temporarily cancel out (or reduce) your Psych Lims.

 

Note a few things:

a) Power Defense still applies.

Any additional points spent on powers contrary to the Disad must be drained first before the Disad can be applied. For example, if you wanted to Drain away someone's sight (i.e. make them blind) you first apply the drain to whatever enhanced sight powers the target has. It the target has +5 to Sight PER rolls, that's 10 extra points that must first be drained away before any additional points are built up to bestowing the blindness. It's just like draining someone's STR: It takes more points of effect to drain a 50 STR brick down to 0, than it does to drain a 10 STR normal down to 0.

 

In effect, Sight is a power, one that just about everyone in the game world has for free (an "Everyman Power"). So are all the other normal senses, 6" of Running, 2" or Swimming, etc. And also taking the normal amount of damage from fire or other particular attack form.

 

IMO, this is the best way to handle effects like this. I've been doing it this way for years.

[Richard Logue]

I think we may have a winner. Vanderbilt suggested it first, but Phil convinced me with his logic. I'll use a specialized Drain. Transform would probably also do the trick and get the same result, but the way Transform works (having to defeat the target's BODY) doesn't really fit the description of the power. In essence, the target becomes more vulnerable to attacks of a specified sfx. That does sound more like a Drain vs Defenses than a Transform. Plus I like the way Drain works in that it "heals" back normally given a little time.

 

Vulnerability: Drain Defenses 2d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2), BOECV (Power Defense applies; +1), all defensive powers simultaneously (+2) (95 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Defenses Drained only vs. a single, specified SFX; -1). 9 END; 47 points real cost.

 

Works for me. Thanks to everyone who made suggestions here. Am I missing anything?

 

Now suggest me a name for this character!

 

Hex?

 

Witchfire?

 

She's quasi-mystical in nature and has a few abilities (such as the Vulnerability power I just outlined) to adversely effect others. She has no directly offensive capabilities.

[pinecone]

I have a fallen valkirie that has a spell called "Doom calling" that I built as a Drain (NPC villian) and it works "OK"...just put in the "only vs special effect X" and you're home free, might need a variable effect of some sort if X changes from use to use...Hmmm sounds like a cool probibility manipulator effect as well.....