SomeAsianKid Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 I'm completely confused about how many points a character would be to be able to do some things. For instance, in many comics supers are taking down military jets/attack spaceships by themelves. At what point should a character be able to do that reliably? (ie, 350pts, 500pts, etc) In Ultimate X-Men, Storm is a lot weaker then her mainstream counterpart, yet she can still one shot sentinels. Mystics are often depicted as being able to teleport across the world and traveling different dimensions. Would it be too broken if a 350pt mystic had that power? (assuming the player doesn't abuse it) Some thoughts and feedbacks on character points and relative powerlevels would be much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Could you clarify your question please? Kind of unclear on what you mean. The level at which characters can accomplish things is the level at which they can afford it with the points they have available. Or do you mean, at what point level should a GM be OK with the characters being able to do certain things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeAsianKid Posted February 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Ah, sorry about that. I mean at what point level should a gm be ok with players doing certain things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 There is a fine line between what a comic character can do and what a game character can do. In the comics it makes for a interesting panel if Storm destroys a Sentinel with one shot. In the game it would not be much fun if everything your character fought was defeated with one hit. The game needs to attempt to emulate the genre but still make for a fun challenge for the players as a whole. So while Storm can beat the Sentinel with one shot (and it might also make sense that a Sentinel is vulnerable to electricty), in the CU Lightning Storm might require 5-6 hits to accomlish the same thing on a Minuteman. There is also power level design to take into account. If you want one-hit Sentinels then you just make them weaker. You do not necessarily need to make the heroes stronger. The mystic telport thing is a fairly simple thing to do with Mega-Scale, easily within the concept of a 350 point character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 As I sit here and think about my many years of reading X-Men comics now I think I've come to the conclusion that Sentinels are really not that powerful. Cyclops can blow them to bits, Storm can blow them to bits, Wolverine can chop them up, Colossus to punch them down, even Sprite could short-circuit them. I don't think that the X-Men were all that powerful (as I said in another thread, I could probably build most of the Giant-Size X-Men on 350 points), I just think that the Sentinels are just not that tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by Monolith even Sprite could short-circuit them. Showing your age there Monolith Sprite aka Arial has been known as Shadowcat for a while now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by Killer Shrike Showing your age there Monolith Sprite aka Arial has been known as Shadowcat for a while now What can I say? I liked it when characters were simpler; before everyone became a ninja. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by Monolith What can I say? I liked it when characters were simpler; before everyone became a ninja. Sadly, even Yoda is a ninja these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeAsianKid Posted February 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Lol. I have no idea who sprite was when monolith mentioned her. Of course, Shadowcat's power to kill technology is just truly disturbing. The X-Men might be able to beat the avengers if they had Shadowcat on their side. She could just drop Vision and Iron-Man right off the bat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by Monolith As I sit here and think about my many years of reading X-Men comics now I think I've come to the conclusion that Sentinels are really not that powerful. Cyclops can blow them to bits, Storm can blow them to bits, Wolverine can chop them up, Colossus to punch them down, even Sprite could short-circuit them. I don't think that the X-Men were all that powerful (as I said in another thread, I could probably build most of the Giant-Size X-Men on 350 points), I just think that the Sentinels are just not that tough. Still kinda tough... but those people make sense to win (when statted in Hero, of course. ) Even at 350... Cyclops : The MOST powerful attack they've got. (As you'd expect when, instead of buying flight and forcefield, he buys more attack... and sticks at least -1/2 limitations on the whole thing. ) Storm : Shouldn't they be vulnerable to her? (Plus, Megascale cheapens the CE, so still a pretty heavy hitter anyway) 'Sprite' : I think again, a specific weakeness. Colossus : Brick vs Robots. C'mon. (Especially since he tacks on a -1/4 lim on everything... +Some Kind of 'Robot Smasher' HKA power?) Wolverine : Firstly, sharp (Killing Attacks) are a good choice for anything you have to turn into scrap (the extra body goes a long way). Secondly, he's fast martial territory (so skill levels for dmg, plus extra SPD). Third - this is Wolverine. He doesn't HAVE to make sense to win... All up, these are the guys with fairly good reasons to be able to take on the killer robots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Just continuing my thoughts here... It's hard to determine at what power-level characters should be able to accomplish certain things. Not all 350 point characters are the same. Nighthawk and Ironclad are both 350 points but I'd rather fight Nighthawk than Ironclad any day of the week. My own scale would be as follows: 200-250 points: New Mutants 250-300 points: Original X-Men 300-400 points: Giant-Size X-Men 400-500 points: Fantastic Four 500-750 points: Avengers 750+ points: JLA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Given that Logan's adamantium claws cut *ANYTHING* except more adamantium and force fields, my own interpretation of them was that they were a Does Body NND (not vs. force fields or unbreakable) HKA. As for Bone Claw Wolvie... *twitch* THERE WAS NO "BONE CLAW" WOLVIE. *hides* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg Given that Logan's adamantium claws cut *ANYTHING* except more adamantium and force fields, my own interpretation of them was that they were a Does Body NND (not vs. force fields or unbreakable) HKA. There's a write-up for those claws in Gadgets & Gear. It's not done with an NND. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Steve took one approach in Gadgets and Gear -- that does not mean that all other approaches are invalid. Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg Given that Logan's adamantium claws cut *ANYTHING* except more adamantium and force fields, my own interpretation of them was that they were a Does Body NND (not vs. force fields or unbreakable) HKA. As for Bone Claw Wolvie... *twitch* THERE WAS NO "BONE CLAW" WOLVIE. *hides* NO BONE CLAW!!! NO BONE CLAW!!! NO BONE CLAW!!! NO BONE CLAW!!! NO BONE CLAW!!! NO BONE CLAW!!! NO BONE CLAW!!! NO BONE CLAW!!! NO BONE CLAW!!! NO BONE CLAW!!! NO BONE CLAW!!! NO BONE CLAW!!! NO BONE CLAW!!! NO BONE CLAW!!! I feel very strongly about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Personally, I'd say that 600-850 is about low to mid range Avengers and JLA, with upper end of both being the 900-1000 range. Its just that its been years since we've seen a truly low level JLA team, and most people don't figure the power level averages for the Avengers accurately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by rjcurrie Steve took one approach in Gadgets and Gear -- that does not mean that all other approaches are invalid. I never said it was. There are 10 ways to do everything in HERO. Your 9 wrong ways and my right one way. I actually tend to be one of the people who finds the "IDIC" ability of the HERO System to be a weakness. I'd much rather know what Captain America's shield is rather than have 50 different versions of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 At a certain point level, the GM can scale the world so that the heroes can do the sorts of things that are appropriate for the campaign. If the campaign is using a 14d6 max and the GM wants players who throw 12d6 to be able to one shot a battle tank, then 12 BODY (when delivered by a metahuman) will do the job because that is the way the world works. As for Marvel Comic's Sentinels, their strength has varied over the years. Some are one shot wonders. Others took a bit more pounding. Some writers have treated Sentinels as heavily armed, mobile one shot agents. Individually, Wolverine or Cyclops can mow it down. It was the Sentinels' numbers and powerful weapons that made them so dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by Metaphysician Personally, I'd say that 600-850 is about low to mid range Avengers and JLA, with upper end of both being the 900-1000 range. Its just that its been years since we've seen a truly low level JLA team, and most people don't figure the power level averages for the Avengers accurately. Sounds fair to me. I think that 900-1000 range has a few 1000+ characters though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by Monolith I never said it was. There are 10 ways to do everything in HERO. Your 9 wrong ways and my right one way. I actually tend to be one of the people who finds the "IDIC" ability of the HERO System to be a weakness. I'd much rather know what Captain America's shield is rather than have 50 different versions of it. Well, of course, you're never going to get a definitive version of Cap's shield. Cap has appeared in what is likely over 1000 comics over the years written and drawn by hundreds of writers and artists. Unless you have sat down and analyzed every single appearance of Cap, you're going to miss something. And that something that is missed has a chance of being something that is important to someone else's interpretation of the shield. Not to mention, you're likely to include some aspect that is important to you but is not important to someone else. I am on the complete opposite side of the "IDIC" issue from you. I love the fact that two characters may both be "nigh invulnerable" but have implemented that "nigh invulnerableness" in two different manners, leading to slight differences in how the powers work in game. That is why I have somewhat mixed feelings about books like USPD and G&G. While I will admit that they are handy tools, I am a bit worried that they will lead to cut and paste character creation and we will lose the subtle differences created by each player creating his abilities in his own way. Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengal Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Great thread, everyone. I am reminded of Avengers (vol. 1) #28, wherein the Living Laser melted the "special alloy" off or Cap's shield, and eventually disintegrated it. Later that issue, Cap appeared with his shield, perfectly unharmed... "special alloy" intact. In the first few Cap issues of the Avengers, Tony Stark installed magnets and special circutry into Cap's shield, which allowed Cap to control it by remote-control. No mention of how Tony was able to hollow out room in the indestructable disk, or why Cap didn't just use his fabulous skills with the disk like he always used to. A few issues later, this whole canard was dropped in favor of the ol' reliable skill and training explanation. During the Secret Wars or something, when Cap was off-earth, somehow he lost his shield, or the Beyonder destroyed it or something. Through sheer force of will, he re-created it, perfect in every detail. Despite the fact that nobody alive knows the precise chemical makeup of the disk... and I'm sure Cap has no idea how to make Vibranium or Admantium. Not dreams, not imaginary stories, still considered in continuity I believe... The point is, you never can tell what something can or will do. You may need at least 50 writeups of Cap's shield just to get it right, considering the butchery of horrid writing and catastrophy of dreadful editing that goes on from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allandrel Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 I liked the Bone Claw Wolverine story arc. The arc from issue #100-110 or so (after he goes completely feral) was especially good. We got to see just how bestial Wolverine had the potential to become, and that even then his inner nobility kept him from being the monster he feared he might become. And his quest to regain to humanity was a great character arc. I agree that Sentinels aren't all that powerful. A single Sentinel is really no match for almost any X-Man. Which makes it REALLY funny that the Mark VII Sentinel is tied for the highest point value HeroClix figure (until they release Galactus, at least). More powerful than Thanos... Tougher than Superman... More versatile (and a better shot)* than Iron Man... It's... Sentinel! Don't bother pitting a horde of them against the X-Men- just one is worth an entire combat team, regardless of what the comics say! *I'm not kidding. It has better attack values than Tony across the board. Patrick J McGraw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Cross Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Ttrue enough-and they had to state later on in his own comuc that when Captain America magically reaasembled his shield he left an atom or two out of alignment,which meant that every hit on the shield weakened it,to the point were it became fragile as glass,as it shattered just after James Rhodes recovered it.Worse yet,the released energy spread around the globe,detonating any vibranium it touched.The whole story arc culminated in a temporairily boosted Klaw sonic blasting Captain America & the shield in such a way that the shield was restored.Sheesh.. Still,it was great to see the Sentinel Of Liberty wallop Klaw with his restored shield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Sadly, the great writers of the world dont seem to feel a pressing need to write comic books. And thanx to this sad fact huge logic and continuity bending idiocies have found their way into paneled print. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.