Summon and disadvantages.

[Herolover]

I am building a summon.

 

I am going to summon a 100 point creature which whill cost me 20 active points.

 

The creature in question is built on a total of 100 points. My question is why not have all these points be Base points? Why would I want to place any disadvantages on the summoned creature? I don't get any more points?

[Lord Liaden]

Well, if all you want is a creature of 100 Base Points, I agree that there's no game-mechanic benefit to taking any Disadvantages. I think this is partly a matter of the philosophy of Disadvantages, though. They're more than just an excuse for more Character Points; they help define the nature and behavior of your character, or creature in this case. Some Disadvantages just make sense and logically follow for certain beings, like "Animal Intelligence" and "Limited Manipulation" for animals, or "Susceptibility to Holy Places and Objects" for demons.

 

Related to that is whether your GM would agree to let you Summon a creature based on 100 points without any Disadvantages. GMs often create or use lists of pre-built creatures that you can choose to Summon, like those listed in the Bestiary. The GM may want to use those to make sure they conform to his or her conception of what's appropriate.

[Hugh Neilson]

This very question is in the FAQ. The answer is "You have to give a Summoned being Disadvantages because this is a roleplaying game, not a tax return. The object isn’t to get away with whatever you can get away with — it’s to simulate a fictional setting and the fictional adventures taking place there. To do that properly, you have to do your best to represent the way things should be. If a demon should have, say, Susceptibility to holy objects, you should give it to him, regardless of whether you get a point break for it."

 

Since the GM must approve, if he doesn't write up, all summoned beings, I would expect the GM to enforce reasonable disadvantages on the creatures summoned. I would generally view any Summoned creature with more base points than the Summoner as a "Requires GM Permission" construct. Show me why this won't be unbalanced. One reason may be "these disadvantages".

 

edited to add actual FAQ response

[Herolover]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

This very question is in the FAQ

 

You know, not that you mention it I remember that. I guess I should have checked the FAQ first uhh.

 

I just wanted to be able to give a response to this question when I get asked it.

[Metaphysician]

I still think disadvantages should subtract from your point total, not add. As is, one 350 point character with 50 points of disadvantages, and another with 150, appear to be the same power level.

[Blue Jogger]

In my gaming group, we've talk about this. We came up with some strange loopholes. (Yes Steve, it is a tax return. As Worf would say, if it doesn't matter who wins, why keep score? )

 

#1 Summon a weak creature with -59 in stats and 59 points of powers and maybe some disadvantages that don't count. Hmm, 0 points without the disads. This is a small child (as per FREd) with some strange powers or perhaps a small kitten familar. Or a weak but beautiful demoness.

This costs 1 point to summon, 2 points for Slavishly Loyal.

(Remember, if it was 59 points of powers and -59 of Disadvantages, it would cost 12 to summon, 24 to make slavishly loyal.)

 

#2 Ok, ok, we want the creature to be decent in combat. So, out of the power points, we can make a decent monster, 1D6K Bite (Restrainable) for 10 points, 2 PD Armor for 3 points, +12 DEX and +1 SPEED, and +2 DCV for 46 points (7 OCV, 9 DCV). Although I haven't tested it, this creature should be able to take out the Black Bear in the book. To Summon a Black Bear costs 22 points, 44 for slavishly loyal.

 

The advantage that #2 has over the bear is an amazing but not superhuman DCV. To be extra cruel replace the 1D6K Bite with a 1D6K Ranged Flame Breath Attack and try to keep about 8" away (take the -2 for range). Also, replace 4" (of the 6") Running with 5" Flight (Restrainable). Now with wings!

 

EDIT: The bear hits 1/6 while the creature hits 5/6. However, the bear can do serious damage (one hit will basically stun it and then next will kill it) while the creature can only nibble for an average of (1.5 BODY on average). So it might take four of these little guys to take a bear down (unless your extra cruel and blasting from a height rather than closing and biting). It still takes only 8 points (2 points x4) to summon four of these slavishly loyal guys vs. 44.

 

Is this the Champion's equivalant of tax evasion? I don't know.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Blue Jogger

In my gaming group, we've talk about this. We came up with some strange loopholes. (Yes Steve, it is a tax return. As Worf would say, if it doesn't matter who wins, why keep score? )

 

#1 Summon a weak creature with -59 in stats and 59 points of powers and maybe some disadvantages that don't count. Hmm, 0 points without the disads. This is a small child (as per FREd) with some strange powers or perhaps a small kitten familar. Or a weak but beautiful demoness.

This costs 1 point to summon, 2 points for Slavishly Loyal.

(Remember, if it was 59 points of powers and -59 of Disadvantages, it would cost 12 to summon, 24 to make slavishly loyal.)

 

#2 Ok, ok, we want the creature to be decent in combat. So, out of the power points, we can make a decent monster, 1D6K Bite (Restrainable) for 10 points, 2 PD Armor for 3 points, +12 DEX and +1 SPEED, and +2 DCV for 46 points (7 OCV, 9 DCV). Although I haven't tested it, this creature should be able to take out the Black Bear in the book. To Summon a Black Bear costs 22 points, 44 for slavishly loyal.

 

The advantage that #2 has over the bear is an amazing but not superhuman DCV. To be extra cruel replace the 1D6K Bite with a 1D6K Ranged Flame Breath Attack and try to keep about 8" away (take the -2 for range). Also, replace 4" (of the 6") Running with 5" Flight (Restrainable). Now with wings!

 

EDIT: The bear hits 1/6 while the creature hits 5/6. However, the bear can do serious damage (one hit will basically stun it and then next will kill it) while the creature can only nibble for an average of (1.5 BODY on average). So it might take four of these little guys to take a bear down (unless your extra cruel and blasting from a height rather than closing and biting). It still takes only 8 points (2 points x4) to summon four of these slavishly loyal guys vs. 44.

 

Is this the Champion's equivalant of tax evasion? I don't know.

 

Seems cheesy to me, although I can see it depending on how limited (read balanced) the form is.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

I still think disadvantages should subtract from your point total, not add. As is, one 350 point character with 50 points of disadvantages, and another with 150, appear to be the same power level.

 

Assuming Base Points are equivilant to Experience points, the above example would appear to be one character with 300 XP and the other with only 200. That would be the difference.

 

As far as Summon, it's a messy can of worms. On the one hand, you actually have to pay points for those Disads. On the other, you can't reduce the cost of the Summon by placing Vulnerabilities & Psych Limits to make it easier to control.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Blue Jogger

#1 Summon a weak creature with -59 in stats and 59 points of powers and maybe some disadvantages that don't count. Hmm, 0 points without the disads. This is a small child (as per FREd) with some strange powers or perhaps a small kitten familar. Or a weak but beautiful demoness.

This costs 1 point to summon, 2 points for Slavishly Loyal.

(Remember, if it was 59 points of powers and -59 of Disadvantages, it would cost 12 to summon, 24 to make slavishly loyal.)

 

#2 Ok, ok, we want the creature to be decent in combat. So, out of the power points, we can make a decent monster, 1D6K Bite (Restrainable) for 10 points, 2 PD Armor for 3 points, +12 DEX and +1 SPEED, and +2 DCV for 46 points (7 OCV, 9 DCV). Although I haven't tested it, this creature should be able to take out the Black Bear in the book. To Summon a Black Bear costs 22 points, 44 for slavishly loyal.

 

The advantage that #2 has over the bear is an amazing but not superhuman DCV. To be extra cruel replace the 1D6K Bite with a 1D6K Ranged Flame Breath Attack and try to keep about 8" away (take the -2 for range). Also, replace 4" (of the 6") Running with 5" Flight (Restrainable). Now with wings!

 

It has -59 STAT points which can't come from SPD, DEX or more than one figured char. OK, let's go to 1 EGO, 1 INT and 0 COM (but is it now smart enough to stay 8" away?). That's 32 points. 27 to go. Now, if they come out of STR or CON, figureds go down. That makes it easier to hurt, and faster to exhaust (it needs 8 END per turn to keep firing and flying each phase, remember). BOD? Well, that only makes it easier to take out. Say 9 BOD, and we now have 9 points to go. PRE? Well, not the bad old bear scares it! Maybe go to 8 STR and 8 CON - that's 6 points, so 3 more to go. We can either sell back STUN (to 6) or END (to 10) to get there.

 

But what is it? The point of Summon is to summon up a creature, not a bundle of statistics. Hence, the bear costs more because the bear has actually been defined as a bear, and has bear abilities like exceptional senses, not pure min/max'ed combat abilities. If I saw a construct like that, I'd be reminding my player that the GM approves or designs all summoned creatures. And at that point, I'm leaning to the latter.

[L. Marcus]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

As far as Summon, it's a messy can of worms. On the one hand, you actually have to pay points for those Disads. On the other, you can't reduce the cost of the Summon by placing Vulnerabilities & Psych Limits to make it easier to control.

See it as not paying for the Disads, but paying for the point the creature actually gets for them. The Disads themselves are "just" there for "flavour".

 

Right? I think that's right . . .

 

Hey, nice new avatar, by the way!

[Blue Jogger]

Ok, you got me there, Hugh. I did not specifically state that I was summoning a small child wizard, a weak demon/creature, or a flying imp (although I don't think it violates any of these concepts, though child wizard would not be morally right). It may just be a pile of green ooze.

 

I started with a small child (for stats) but also give it specific creature-like abilities. I handwaved the PRE and Endurance expendures (as some GMs might) and that would have increased the cost. Ok, I give, I min-max the beast more than I should. I also went back and said, better summon four of these things, they are after all cheap and disposable and bears are mean creatures if they hit.

 

To say that a bear, however, is somehow intrinsically more than its combat statistics... I picture a bunch of Hero guys going out, finding a black bear and measuring it. "(Pant, Pant, Pant) Definately has 10 REC and 36 END. I'm too out of shape to be doing this." BTW, the bear's has about 15 points of non-combat bear powers out of its 108 total.

 

Here are the stats of a small child.

0 STR -10

8 DEX -6

5 CON -10

5 BODY -10

7 INT 3

5 EGO -10

5 PRE -5

10 COM 0

1 PD 1

1 ED 0

1 SPD -8

2 REC 2

10 END 0

8 STUN 0

 

Total: -59

 

I then ramped the DEX to 20 and the speed to 2, the +2 DCV is a normal small child ability, but could represent a certain skill in avoiding being hit.

 

However, the combat thing was a sidetrack, the main point is that you can get 59 points by using the small child stats (if your creature concept allows for it). You can't, however, get 59 points back by using disadvantages.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Blue Jogger

However, the combat thing was a sidetrack, the main point is that you can get 59 points by using the small child stats (if your creature concept allows for it). You can't, however, get 59 points back by using disadvantages.

 

The sinmple word "small" provides the physical limitation for being smaller than normal, doesn't it? Of curse, if you aren't smaller than normal, I believe you'll need to roll a STR roll (9-) each phase just to move.

 

Other disads? Well, the usual "demon" disads for an imp or demon creature, just off the top of my head.

 

Yeah, you get back 59 points by selling all those stats. You also get low END, poor STUN, etc. To some extent, it's a creature of the game mechanics, but that's unavoidable.

 

If the GM chooses to handwave PRE and END, then don't whine when the result is people selling back PRE and END to save points.

[Blue Jogger]

Actually I was whining that I could (and have) pull points out of stats to make a cheaper summon but couldn't just add a Disadvantage (to the creature) to make it cheaper.

 

This becomes a problem when you want to summon an unseen servant and it becomes more expensive than a real loyal servant (though unseen servants are less useful, smart, and flexible as a real loyal servant).

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by L. Marcus

See it as not paying for the Disads, but paying for the point the creature actually gets for them. The Disads themselves are "just" there for "flavour".

 

Right? I think that's right . . .

I wouldn't say they are there for "flavour" but for [cinimatic] realism. It makes sense than a summoned undead would be vulerable to holy ground/symbols and such, just as it would that a dog wouldn't think like a human (unless it's a "magic" dog or something).

Hey, nice new avatar, by the way!

 

Thanks! It's actually Mephisto from Demon City Shinjinku, but since he and my Dust Raven character happen to look kinda similar...

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

Thanks! It's actually Mephisto from Demon City Shinjinku, but since he and my Dust Raven character happen to look kinda similar...

 

Huh. I was sure that it was Dream, from Grant Morrison's Sandman comic book series. Figured that was the tie-in to the "Prince of Dreams" title.

 

Still cool in any case.

[L. Marcus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Huh. I was sure that it was Dream, from Grant Morrison's Sandman comic book series. Figured that was the tie-in to the "Prince of Dreams" title.

Grant Morrison? Who he? Did he draw any episodes of Sandman?

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Huh. I was sure that it was Dream, from Grant Morrison's Sandman comic book series. Figured that was the tie-in to the "Prince of Dreams" title.

 

Still cool in any case.

 

 

I'll have to check that out (not too familiar with the Sandman series).

[caris]

Originally posted by L. Marcus

Grant Morrison? Who he? Did he draw any episodes of Sandman?

 

I'm sure it was just a mis-speak. Lord Liaden, probably meant Neil Gaiman. Grant Morrison and Neil Gaiman, were two of the strongest voices out of a large stable of strong voices that lead to the creation of the Verigo line.

[L. Marcus]

But what did Morrison do?

[caris]

Originally posted by L. Marcus

But what did Morrison do?

 

He relaunched Animal Man around 1989.

 

He took over Doom Patrol in the early 1990s

 

He created the Invisibles in the mid to late 1990s.

[caris]

Originally posted by caris

He relaunched Animal Man around 1989.

 

He took over Doom Patrol in the early 1990s

 

He created the Invisibles in the mid to late 1990s.

 

Sorry, also in the late 1990s he relaunched JLA with Superman, Batman, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman

[L. Marcus]

Hmmm . . . Saw the first collection of Animal Man at the local book shop today . . . Do you recommend it?

[caris]

Originally posted by L. Marcus

Hmmm . . . Saw the first collection of Animal Man at the local book shop today . . . Do you recommend it?

 

I do with some reservations. Grant's entire run on the series forms one large arc, and you might leave the TB feeling somewhat unsatisfied, since the whole story isn't complete in 9 issues. I can't remember what issue "Coyote Gospel" is in, but if it is in the first TB, than increase the enthusiasm of the recommendation. That story is my personal favorite of Morrison's run on Animal Man.

[L. Marcus]

The cover did say something about a coyote, yes . . . I hope they'll still have it after pay day, because then it will be . . . Mine . . . !

[caris]

Originally posted by L. Marcus

The cover did say something about a coyote, yes . . . I hope they'll still have it after pay day, because then it will be . . . Mine . . . !

 

Please let me know what you think of it. Coyote Gospel is one of my favorite comic book stories of all time. There is a some what surreal aspect to the story. I thought it was pretty spiffy back in 1988/1989, but I'm not sure how well it stands up to the test of time for readers of today.