"Fixing" the Speed Chart

[Richard Logue]

First I'd like to make something very very clear. I do NOT think the Speed chart is broken. I'm just toying around with a house-rule alternative that I'd like some feedback on. I've given it a good deal of thought, but I'm posting here because the collective HERO mind can come up with any glaring problems it may have. I plan to use it next week.

 

I'm abducting the initiative system from Deadlands and HEROizing it. Each player has his own deck of normal playing cards (complete with jokers). The GM has a double deck (sans jokers) because he is likely running several NPC's. Decks are reshuffled after each Turn.

 

Combats no longer start on Segment 12 and then go to an immediate post-12 Recovery. Instead, they simply begin. At the beginning of each 12-second Turn, the players all draw cards from their respective decks equal to their character's Speed. These, obviously, represent how many actions the PC has during the Turn.

 

If a player pulls a red joker, he has two choices. 1) He can plan to use it as an action like the other cards. If that's what he wants, he can pull an additional card from his deck for a an extra action that Turn. 2) He can throw it away, losing the action, but he gains a +2 DCV, or OCV, his choice, throughout the Turn.

 

If he pulls the black joker, the player loses that card, and thus an action. He also loses his highest card/action.

 

At this point, the GM begins counting off cards from Ace down to Two. The suits won't matter. Jokers count as an Ace for this purpose. Whenever a card you're holding is called out, you have an action. If you have an action at the same time as an opponent, the higher Dex (plus Lightning Reflexes, of course) breaks the initiative tie. Fairly straight forward, right? It gets better.

 

Players (and the GM) can "bid" unspent actions to gain bonuses to whatever it is they are trying to accomplish. If you bid an unspent action in this way, you discard that card. Of course you lose an action for the Turn, but you improve your chances of succeeding in the current action. There are four ways to benefit from an action bid. 1) +2 OCV. 2) +2 DCV. 3) +2 DC's. 4) +2d6 STR vs. Entangles.

 

In addition, you can bid unspent actions to beat initiative, or go earlier in the Turn. To beat an opponent's initiative during the current action, spend one card. To act during an action that you wouldn't be going in normally, spend two cards. Note that if you bid your two actions to do that, normal initiative still applies.

 

Here's an additional bonus to bidding. If you combine actions you get a "panel," as in a panel in a comic book. A panel is worth an additional .1 xp at the end of the scenario. If you bid all of your actions from a Turn into one action, you get a "splash page" which is worth an additional .5 xp. XP, by the way, is rounded down when its awarded.

 

Obviously, when you start combining actions, combat will go a lot quicker. Also, I think it has somewhat of a more comic booky feel to it. And with randomly drawn cards every turn, there's no more Speed counting.

 

Recoveries. You can take a recovery on any action card when its called. As long as the you weren't or aren't interrupted during that card, the recovery works.

 

Flash. A victim is Flashed for a number of called cards, not a number of actions. So if you're Flashed on Queen for five cards, you'll be Flashed during Queen, Jack, Ten, Nine, and Eight, whether or not you have those cards to perform actions with. If you do have one or more of those cards, those actions are "Flashed" and cannot be used to bid with or bid on. Also, you cannot take a recovery on a Flashed card.

 

Well, that's my new Speed chart/initiative house rule. Sorry about the lengthiness, but I wanted to be clear on how I plan to work it. Whacha think?

[Killer Shrike]

Hmm.

 

Thats actually pretty cool. I havent torn it apart or anything, but it reads well and is cinematic. It vaguely reminds me of the Marvel SAGA System, except that you have the actual HERO System rules (which is to say rules at all) to back it up.

 

Let us know how it works out!

[Guest Kolava]

Very facinating, but how do aborts work?

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Kolava

Very facinating, but how do aborts work?

Im betting by bidding.

 

He indicates that you spend two actions to go in a segment you normally wouldnt.

[Guest Kolava]

Oh. That won't make fans of Blocks, Dodges, or any other aborts very happy, since it punishes them by one more action then they'd usually spend. Still, I think the system is solid.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Kolava

Oh. That won't make fans of Blocks, Dodges, or any other aborts very happy, since it punishes them by one more action then they'd usually spend. Still, I think the system is solid.

Maybe aborts shouldnt cost two, but instead cost your highest current card still in hand?

[Richard Logue]

Originally posted by Kolava

Very facinating, but how do aborts work?

 

Good point. I hadn't thoguht of Aborts yet. I'll say since an abort is a reaction to someone attacking you, it will simply cost one unspent, un-Flashed action.

 

Thank you.

[Derek Hiemforth]

A few random thoughts...

• If a player draws two or more of the same card at the start of the Turn, does this mean he acts multiple times on the same "Phase?" If so, would the actions be back-to-back on his DEX, or one during the initial Combat Order, and further ones during additional cyclings of the Combat Order?
  
• If you bid an unspent action to better your chances of breaking out of an Entangle, does the "+2d6 STR vs. Entangles" mean that you roll 2d6 and add the result to your STR (i.e., +7 STR on an average roll) or do you mean that they add 2d6 to the dice of their STR Roll (i.e., a 15 STR character gets 5d6 to roll vs the Entangle instead of 3d6)? Also, can this be used against Grabs as well?
  
• I'm not sure about the XP bonuses. Wouldn't this just encourage folks to dump all their cards near the end of a combat into getting the XPs?
  
• I'd suggest pulling the Aces from the deck and using just the twos through kings. This would give 12 possible non-joker results, so the number of "Phases" in a Turn would stay the same as it is now.

[Solomon]

Re: "Fixing" the Speed Chart

 

I had been (idly) thinking about a similar system. My take was like this:

 

Players draw as many cards as their SPD from a poker deck with tens and jokers pulled out. Cards are called out from ace to deuce. Each card equates a segment.

 

You still can't act twice in a segment, meaning that if you draw, say, two kings, you're out of your luck - you get one less action. This was meant to make high SPD less cost-effective. The higher your SPD, the more likely you are of drawing duplicate cards. SPD is not limited to 12 though.

 

Aborting is done by discarding a lower card, and you still can't abort in the same segment you acted.

 

Edit: For clarity's purposes, I had not read Derek's post before typing this.

[Richard Logue]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

A few random thoughts...

• If a player draws two or more of the same card at the start of the Turn, does this mean he acts multiple times on the same "Phase?" If so, would the actions be back-to-back on his DEX, or one during the initial Combat Order, and further ones during additional cyclings of the Combat Order?
  
• If you bid an unspent action to better your chances of breaking out of an Entangle, does the "+2d6 STR vs. Entangles" mean that you roll 2d6 and add the result to your STR (i.e., +7 STR on an average roll) or do you mean that they add 2d6 to the dice of their STR Roll (i.e., a 15 STR character gets 5d6 to roll vs the Entangle instead of 3d6)? Also, can this be used against Grabs as well?
  
• I'm not sure about the XP bonuses. Wouldn't this just encourage folks to dump all their cards near the end of a combat into getting the XPs?
  
• I'd suggest pulling the Aces from the deck and using just the twos through kings. This would give 12 possible non-joker results, so the number of "Phases" in a Turn would stay the same as it is now.

 

 

1) Good point, I hadn't thought of that. I think it would be best to cycle through the initiative orders for multiple actions on the same card. That way its a little more balanced for the non-speedsters; high DEX and/or Lightning Reflexes maintains its value.

 

2) +2d6 meaning an extra 2 dice of effect. The 15 STR individual would roll 5 dice to break out instead of his normal 3. This is, of course, before pushing.

 

3) It could do that, but at the loss of actions. That might backfire on the player who tries to greedify the extra xp. Anyone else have an opinion on this?

 

4) I considered this to no end result. In my opinion, having the "extra" Phase doesn't affect it much. However, that being said, I could certainly reduce the deck by the Aces to keep it at 12 Phases. I'd like to hear more on this point as well.

[Killer Shrike]

Instead of pulling the extra 13th card, consider throwing out a card from the GM deck each turn, and that becomes the "wild card" for that turn, behaving like a joker of the same color as the card thrown.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Richard Logue

4) I considered this to no end result. In my opinion, having the "extra" Phase doesn't affect it much. However, that being said, I could certainly reduce the deck by the Aces to keep it at 12 Phases. I'd like to hear more on this point as well.

Keeping it at 12 "Segments" per Turn would prevent it from having unanticipated effects on aspects of the rules that use per-Turn values (like Adjustment Powers that operate per Turn, non-combat movement whose speed is based on inches per Turn, etc.)

[Pegasus]

I'm one of the people who dislikes the standard speed chart and would like to see a revision of some sort. Unfortunately, its hard to come up with a good alternative. My favorite alternative so far was using a twelve sided die, but I never got a chance to try it out. (Poor dodecahedron, the coolest, most under used die!)

 

I am intrigued by your plan. A question: (most of my questions have already been asked): no mass recovery point now (Is that correct?) If the only way to recover is via spending a card, how does regen work?

 

I like the idea, but I'd really have to see it in action. Time efficiency is the big test. Please let us know how it goes if and when you give it a try!

[ghost-angel]

I would assume the "Post-12" still exists and Regen and Post-12-Recovery would kick off normally.

 

I also think that the Ace should be removed to keep it at "12 segments".

 

Other than that this is a freakin' cool idea. It now takes Combat and shakes it up so the same character isn't going first/last every single time which makes combat boring after a while. "Oh, the speedster ran up and smacked down the bad guy again? Ok."

 

Faster just means they can do more in a Turn not just ness. before everyone else all the time. And it also makes it so combat might last a turn which is a proble in our games. We've gotten into a bad habit of "If combat took more than four phases we're outgunned" and then we run away. This keeps the random element of combat a little better off.

 

I'm gonna suggest this to my GM if you don't mind and see how it works with our group.

 

Damn, the idea so cool.

 

(just an aside, the SPD chart as it stands is definitely NOT broken, but it could use a little spice)

[Richard Logue]

Originally posted by Crisis

A question: (most of my questions have already been asked): no mass recovery point now (Is that correct?) If the only way to recover is via spending a card, how does regen work?

 

 

Yes, my apologies. There is still a "post-12" or between Turn Recovery. I forgot to make sure that was understood in my original post.

[Richard Logue]

Well, it seems the general consensus is to remove one of the card values from the decks. Derek has the strongest argument for it, I think, when he says it simply removes any possible problem that might arise later because of it. So we'll take the aces out. Thanks for the suggestion.

[JmOz]

I would take a face card not the ace out if you are going to do it, or perhaps make a face card a wild card (it's the ladies perogitive to do what she wants )

[JmOz]

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7609

[JmOz]

A couple problems from play, You will need two decks

 

You should probably use the SW method of distinguishing Mooks from characters, all mooks share one set

 

It actualy can get confusing

[Richard Logue]

Originally posted by JmOz

A couple problems from play, You will need two decks

 

You should probably use the SW method of distinguishing Mooks from characters, all mooks share one set

 

It actualy can get confusing

 

Yeah, each player will have his/her own deck. And the GM (me) will have a double deck.

 

One of the things I'm considering is grouping Speeds for NPC's. Instead of drawing a hand for each NPC present, draw a hand for all the Speed 4 NPC's, all the Speed 5 NPC's, all the Speed 6 NPC's, and so forth. It will be less cards to have to work with, and they were all going to go together on the normal Speed chart anyway, right?

 

And of course, as I laid out in my first post, the decks are all shuffled in between Turns. Keeps the jokers random.

[Richard Logue]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Instead of pulling the extra 13th card, consider throwing out a card from the GM deck each turn, and that becomes the "wild card" for that turn, behaving like a joker of the same color as the card thrown.

 

It would add an additional bit of whacky random fun, but I think too many Jokers/wild cards would ruin the pot. Having the jokers show up every so often adds flavor. Having them show up possibly every Turn might be a bit much. Anyone else on this thought?

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Richard Logue

It would add an additional bit of whacky random fun, but I think too many Jokers/wild cards would ruin the pot. Having the jokers show up every so often adds flavor. Having them show up possibly every Turn might be a bit much. Anyone else on this thought?

Well, its still only 6/54, or 1/9, and its an even split good/bad.

 

Seems easier than pulling the cards, and plays in to one of the "features" of the system.

 

Just an idea however

[BoneDaddy]

Originally posted by Richard Logue

It would add an additional bit of whacky random fun, but I think too many Jokers/wild cards would ruin the pot. Having the jokers show up every so often adds flavor. Having them show up possibly every Turn might be a bit much. Anyone else on this thought?

Lets say I'm playing Bullet - the high density shrinking speedster who flies (no munchkin here, no siree) with a Speed of 9. I draw nine cards. I get two wild cards - a joker and a queen. On my first turn, I lay my whole hand down, say "gin" and attack the bad guy 6 times. Once for the turn card, once for each wild card, and I trade in the other 6 for three early turns, for "cinematic effect".

 

Round one, phase one, Bullet whips the crap out of anyone he wants to. After Grond is reduced to a greenish paste, Bullett makes the obligatory presence attack, and the mooks need clean pants. The big cool fight scene is O-ver.

 

I think too many wild cards could be a real problem. I don't worry about benefiting speedsters too much - that speed stuff is expensive. I worry about creating the possibility for some seriously unbalanced attack sequences. Nothing would stop Mechanon from doing the same thing with his draw.

 

(Edited for math, sad to say. And then spelling. I need an editor and a fact checker)

[Killer Shrike]

Of course, the opposition could do the same thing. Makes for a big splash page scene.

 

Perhaps Wild Cards can be trumped by other Wild Cards? You Wild Card up, I counter with one of my Wild Cards. Wild Cards are declared in reverse DEX order. Something like that.

[Bengal]

This is very cool. But it means mutilating a bunch of decks of cards, and I can't be bothered with that, when I could be sketching or rolling up some new character with a new whacky EC and backstory.

 

 

Please keep me posted; I'd love to try this out when it hits Beta