a ? about SPD

[The Maxx]

has anyone use characters that have a SPD higher than a 12? and if so how did you work in the extra phases per segment?

[Monolith]

I've done it. I just allow 2 full actions on the double Phases. So a SPD 14 gets 1 action each Phase and 2 actions on Phases 6 and 12. It's just simple to do it that way.

[lemming]

Same as Monolith.

 

edit: On further thought perhaps a bit differently.

 

Their second phase in a segment would happen at 1/2 their DEX. (Third would happen at 1/4)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by lemming

edit: On further thought perhaps a bit differently.

 

Their second phase in a segment would happen at 1/2 their DEX. (Third would happen at 1/4)

Not really so differently. I use DEX -10 to determine each additional attack time.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: a ? about SPD

 

Originally posted by The Maxx

has anyone use characters that have a SPD higher than a 12? and if so how did you work in the extra phases per segment?

Others have noted possible ways to do this if you want to. I just wanted to note that this is technically not allowed by the rules, per H5E page 24.

[The Maxx]

Re: Re: a ? about SPD

 

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Others have noted possible ways to do this if you want to. I just wanted to note that this is technically not allowed by the rules, per H5E page 24.

now that's interesting

I didn't know that the rules had put a cap on SPD like that or more to the point prohibited more than one action per second in that fashion

[Guest Kolava]

According to the book, speed above 12 is only useful as a buffer to absorb negative adjustment.

[ghost-angel]

Probably done because ppl with SPD over 12 just made combat so much more complicated than it needs to be. You get twelve seconds, twelve possible actions to take and that's it. If you want to keep going first buy a higher DEX. If you want to go second just hold. If you want to go both .. well, considering that ppl with 12SPD are generally twice as fast as most other Supers you kind of do go before and after everyone.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Re: Re: a ? about SPD

 

Originally posted by The Maxx

I didn't know that the rules had put a cap on SPD like that or more to the point prohibited more than one action per second in that fashion

Pretty much everything in the rules prohibits more than one action in a second. That's also the reason you can't hold an action into your next Phase, for example.

[lemming]

Re: Re: a ? about SPD

 

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Others have noted possible ways to do this if you want to. I just wanted to note that this is technically not allowed by the rules, per H5E page 24.

I defy the rules! MWA HA HA HA HA!

 

Actually, I haven't run or played in a game with a 12+ character in years. But I retain my option to torture my players! ha!

[Victim]

Re: Re: Re: Re: a ? about SPD

 

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Pretty much everything in the rules prohibits more than one action in a second. That's also the reason you can't hold an action into your next Phase, for example.

 

True, but it seems like buying tons of speed to take many actions in a phase for a Time Stop like effect is much simpler than full time stop effect Steve wrote up.

[PhilFleischmann]

Another thing you could do is create a new SPD Chart (it isn't hard) with more phases per turn, say 24. Each phase would then represent 1/2 second, you still get post-24 recoveries every turn, etc. For people with <12 SPD, this really doesn't make much difference. If your SPD is 4, you still get an action every 3 seconds. But with a "longer" SPD Chart, characters with, say 18 SPD, can distribute their phases evenly throughout the 24 segments available:

 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

- x x x - x x x - x x x - x x x - x x x - x x x - x x x - x x x

 

I've created villians before with >12 SPD, and have found that it didn't work very well. There's diminishing returns after a while. You have to spend LOTS of END and it's a long time between End-Of-Turn Recoveries. Sure, you can take recoveries any time, but your opponent can just hold until you do and then mess it up for you. And If you're sacrificing phases to take recoveries, that defeats the purpose of being able to take extra actions somewhat.

 

In my case, I had a villain (named "Accelerato" IIRC) who had a 24 SPD and wound up costing about 400 points. He was taken down by a single 250-point brick because he couldn't help but be inefficient. This was in 4th ed.

 

You can also use the "extended SPD Chart" for greater granularity in SPD, without necessarily having characters faster than 12.

[Vondy]

No. I've never allowed a character with a speed above 8 in one of my games. Speed isn't a measure of how fast the character is - that is determined by a combination of factors, of which speed is only one of them. Speedsters can effectively simulate superhuman speed and massive numbers of actions with powers and modifiers. And characters with high speed scores tend to dominate the game, even when they shouldn't. It also leads to other players, who want equal airtime, wanting more speed even when its not appropriate. I say cap it at a lower number and use a variety of other effects to achieve the result you want.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Von D-Man

No. I've never allowed a character with a speed above 8 in one of my games. Speed isn't a measure of how fast the character is - that is determined by a combination of factors, of which speed is only one of them. Speedsters can effectively simulate superhuman speed and massive numbers of actions with powers and modifiers. And characters with high speed scores tend to dominate the game, even when they shouldn't. It also leads to other players, who want equal airtime, wanting more speed even when its not appropriate. I say cap it at a lower number and use a variety of other effects to achieve the result you want.

 

I'm going with the Man on this one.

 

Exactly my opinions, even down to my "unofficial speed cap".

 

D

[Mike W]

I think SPD over 8 gets into serious game balance issues. If most supers have 4 or 5 SPD then an 8 SPD character is already getting twice as many actions as everyone else(or close to it). I think the game balance guidelines in 4th edition were a good place to start. Too bad so many published characters don't fit into them or don't fit together very well. Geez, look through European Enemies. At least half of those characters have NO chance of survival in any campaign. Champs allows you to mathematically do a lot of things that you simply shouldn't. It requires reasonable players and a good GM to make sure such things don't happen.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Mike W

I think SPD over 8 gets into serious game balance issues.

eh, sometimes. I've played a speed 4 with a speed 15 character. it really depends on the group dynamics, the GM and a couple other factors.

With me, one important consideration is that "Can the Player handle a high speed character?"

If they can't plan ahead and be ready for their phase, then a high speed is not for them.

However, except for saying NO. I agree with Von D-Man's points.

[ghost-angel]

In our games supers go from 4-6, Speedsters start at 7 and tend to go to 9. Most of us don't much higher than 9 unless we're playing a high-powered game that night (450+ points). In fact we don't even consider them a "real" speedster unless they have a speed of 8 or higher. It rarely creates game balance issues for us, simply because the point cost involved in a SPD9 character reduces their versitality in other areas .. just assume they went to 20DEX and 9SPD they spent 90pnts one basically one effect whose only combat result is to go more often.

 

Outside of combat usually means that they also have less skills to work with.

 

It balances itself out in the end most of the time in a point based system where everyone has the same points to play with. Of course, if your games fearture more than 50% combat then the Speedster will get more air-time than the others, but I'd say that's an issue of the game not the player/character.

[Kdansky]

In a low-powered campaign (which we do) high speed seriously messed everything up. If speed scores go from 2 (brick type) to 5, the brick is simply useless against someone who acts twice as much for a meagre 30 (40 with NCM) points, even on 150 cp Level. We adjusted speed a bit differently, we started it at 4 instead of 2 and let the NCM drop. The difference between 4 and 7 isn't so harsh as 2 to 5. (+75% compared to +150%). We also dropped all figured characteristics to solve STR/CON issue and a few other changes I'm going to post sometimes perhaps

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by ghost-angel

It rarely creates game balance issues for us, simply because the point cost involved in a SPD9 character reduces their versitality in other areas .. just assume they went to 20DEX and 9SPD they spent 90pnts one basically one effect whose only combat result is to go more often.

 

This is also exacerbated by the need to spend END 9 times per turn. It's great to say "Oh, with all that extra Speed, I can take extra recoveries", but try it when people are paying attention. Your DCV drops, all defense powers that require END shut down and you don't even GET the recovery if someone hits you before your next phase. One guy with a reserved phase, and notonly do you not get any END back, your STUN drops.

[Law Dog]

The way to get more actions without exceeding speed 12 is Duplication with some limitations or the area effect advantage.

 

With the duplication, you're probably talking some serious points, even with the limitations (like only in line with path of travel & only lasts for that phase). But if you're trying to simulate the "hypothetical" Flash, you're going to have to dole out the points anyway.

[Mike W]

I've seen 12 SPD characters on 300 points that were absolutely terrifying though. 12D6 main attack at 0 END, plenty of defenses, 30+ DEX. The character would be scary with a 6 SPD, at 12 he's a game breaker.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Mike W

I've seen 12 SPD characters on 300 points that were absolutely terrifying though. 12D6 main attack at 0 END, plenty of defenses, 30+ DEX. The character would be scary with a 6 SPD, at 12 he's a game breaker.

 

90 point attack, 60 for DEX, 80 for SPD = 230. Not very versatile, is he? But I agree such a character could easily be a gamebreaker. He has 70 points left for movement and defense, so his defenses can't be too huge. Is the character a Brick (lots of figureds) or focus character (or otherwise limited on virtually every ability?) That's the only way I can see to buy all that, plus good DEF and decent movement.

[Ndreare]

MAn I have never realy had a player give me a character with over a 8 speed. But then again we use the ER system with few changess so even if he did it would get cought and limit him in other ways.

 

 

When looking at game balance the ER system saves so many head echs and reely can save a game with powers the GM would have over looked.

[Guest Kolava]

What is the ER system?

[ghost-angel]

Originally posted by Mike W

I've seen 12 SPD characters on 300 points that were absolutely terrifying though. 12D6 main attack at 0 END, plenty of defenses, 30+ DEX. The character would be scary with a 6 SPD, at 12 he's a game breaker.

 

He wouldn't be much of a game-breaker around us. As Hugh poitned out he's got 70pts left over for everything else. that's not a lot to work with, especially outside of combat.

 

I would say we spend no more than 50% of any game session "in combat", frequently less. The best way to balance out someone who wants to build that speed-demon is just to make him utterly useless in other situations. The player should quickly learn how to make a "Faster" character as in faster-than-most-everyone-else without going that far out so he has room left over for Roleplaying Points instead of just Rollplaying Points.

 

It all depends on your games, if you feature combat heavy games a high SPD character with a high attack will break a game quickly, if you feature games that require more balance to powers/skills then a high speed guy will be left behind.