speeding up combat

[Tech]

Damage Reduction can be difficult but since I'm a wiz at math, it doesn't bother me.

 

I believe it's already been suggested but having charts for combat is a quick method. You roll the 3d6 and consult the chart which DCV you hit. Not having agents/villains get up after being knocked to zero, not using END and having simpler characters for beginning players adds up in time-savings.

 

I personally use END, even for villains but as I mentioned, math doesn't bother me. I have a hero with variable PD & ED with Damage Reduction but I'll add - yes, that can strain even my brain. Still, for my villains with D.R., rarely does any player realize they have it (unless I mention it for the sheer pleasure of letting the players know.)

 

Another suggestion is ignoring Knockback or the BODY done from an attack, unless a Killing Attack.

[Terry Wilcox]

Originally posted by Rebar

I can state from experience that any kind of formal timing will be received poorly. Leads to paralysis and frustration.

 

If you've got a player that takes 5 minutes to make a decision, no amount of rule hacking is going to make combat go faster. The player is the bottleneck.

 

So get them chess timers. Those make a slow game of chess go faster without changing the rules.

 

If you have 5 players and 5 NPCS in combat and you want to limit it to 10 minutes, put a minute on each timer. Or scale each character's time according to their speed.

[Dust Raven]

I'm having a similar problem in my own camapign. The players seem to take too long to make their phases, often asking for quick recaps before they take their actions.

 

I've done a few things that have worked to speed things up, though some worked more than others:

 

Make everything sound urgent: My players are primarily role-players, rather than "roll" players. If the major combats involve something hazardous to NPCs, or a villain that isnt' attacking but prepairing something, the tension bleeds right into the players, who then take less time to take their actions.

 

I don't recap: If a player wasn't paying attention, neither was their character (unless it's something obvious, like something directly in the character's field of view). If the player wants to know what's going on, I ask them to make a PER roll at -2 and give them very general info if it's made. If they want more info, they have to use up part of their phase.

Glance: 0 Phase, PER -2. Location of known participants. If any participants are standing or prone (but not whether or not they are knocked out/stunned).

Quick Look: 1/2 Phase, PER -1. As above plus whether or not prone targets are knocked out/stunned. Knows who is enganged with whom.

Long Look: Full Phase, PER -0. As above plus may notice other factors in combat, such as what maneuvers participants are using, or the actions of bystandards.

 

Of course, if a player is paying attention, they'll already know all of this information and be able to act appropriately on their Phase. Great incentive for paying attention.

[Bloodshot]

Hey...I *really* like the ideas here. Rebar can back me up when I say the players are definitely role-players, not roll-players. Making them expend actions to see what's going on is not only fair but will probably make them focus.

 

Again, a lot of the work is up to ME to make sure the players stay interested in what's going on...

 

Originally posted by Dust Raven

I'm having a similar problem in my own camapign. The players seem to take too long to make their phases, often asking for quick recaps before they take their actions.

 

I've done a few things that have worked to speed things up, though some worked more than others:

 

Make everything sound urgent: My players are primarily role-players, rather than "roll" players. If the major combats involve something hazardous to NPCs, or a villain that isnt' attacking but prepairing something, the tension bleeds right into the players, who then take less time to take their actions.

 

I don't recap: If a player wasn't paying attention, neither was their character (unless it's something obvious, like something directly in the character's field of view). If the player wants to know what's going on, I ask them to make a PER roll at -2 and give them very general info if it's made. If they want more info, they have to use up part of their phase.

Glance: 0 Phase, PER -2. Location of known participants. If any participants are standing or prone (but not whether or not they are knocked out/stunned).

Quick Look: 1/2 Phase, PER -1. As above plus whether or not prone targets are knocked out/stunned. Knows who is enganged with whom.

Long Look: Full Phase, PER -0. As above plus may notice other factors in combat, such as what maneuvers participants are using, or the actions of bystandards.

 

Of course, if a player is paying attention, they'll already know all of this information and be able to act appropriately on their Phase. Great incentive for paying attention.

[ghost-angel]

One of the things I did when running my cyberpunk games is force player to spit out actions without any pause.

 

i held the following rules:

 

For character talking in combat

0-5 words = 0 phase

6-10 words = 1/2 phase

11-15 words = full phase

16+ words = I moved onto next person mid sentence.

 

When I spoke your name you had to give me a one sentence description of what your action will be, then soliloquy, then roll, then done. next.

 

I ran this method with a bunch of new-to-Hero players, though not new to gaming in general. most of them were OK at best roll-players.

 

To my surprise they cooperated with me rather well and combat hummed along. I ran a full 2 Turn combat in fifteen minutes flat with basically newbies (3-4 SPD characters, so not very many actions per Turn, but enough). One of the things I notice people forget is that a Phase/Segment is 1 second long. Time yourself talking and see how many words you actually get out in 1 second or what you can really do. Realizing Hero is Heroic this can be bent a little, but still - 1 second is a very very short time. Hammer it into the players brains that their Phase is part of a 1 second Segment.

 

Ive had games where entire conversations have taken place in a combat that would normally take fifteen minutes. Bad mojo. Bad combat. Bad GM for not stopping it.

[dstarfire]

ways to remove spd

 

If you don't want to mess around with the spd stat, steal the method from palladium: rather than going phase-dex, just let each player have a number of actions each turn equal to how many phases they'd normally get to go on. just keep going through the combat order, and if a player still has actions left on when their time comes up, they can go.

 

The downside to this approach is that a group of players suddenly becomes equal to even the fastest of npc, but that can be fixed with some minor tweaking.

[Rebar]

Ive had games where entire conversations have taken place in a combat that would normally take fifteen minutes.

 

I remember as a young lad reading some gunslinger comic and being disgusted when the good guy and the bad guy had a stand off. Suspension of disbelief when it comes to normal time dliation/compression in a story is standard practice - but in a shootout, elapsed time is key to the drama. In drawing his gun, the baddie spoke a paragraph of words. Bad enough, but the good guy managed to respond with several paragraphs of words - and still draw his gun faster than baddie - and shoot him.

[RDU Neil]

Just my .02

 

I tossed the SPD chart a long time ago. The use of the chart penalized slower SPD characters much more than 10 points difference should really do, IMO. Because players saw each phase as so "precious" they would take too much time deciding what to do. The SPD chart forced characters to fear "wasting an action" which increased their attempts to hash over every option, debate every option, think through every option... and IMO totally destroyed any "danger... fast... action... threat!" feel of combat.

 

I use initiative now, and have for years, and it works wonders.

 

Combat happens in rounds... each player rolling a d6 and adding it to their SPD. Highest number goes first.

 

To reflect the higher SPDs of supers, the rule is expanded. If your initiative total is 11-16, you get two actions. 17-22, three actions, etc.

 

Example: Four characters, SPDs 8, 5, 4 & 2 in combat. Each rolls a d6.

 

SPD8 + 3 = 11

 

SPD5 + 6 = 11

 

SPD4 + 2 = 6

 

SPD2 + 5 = 7

 

So you count down. 11 goes first, SPD8 before SPD5 as per SPD, then DEX. SPD2 goes on 7, the SPD4 goes on 6.

 

After all first action, second actions count down again, so SPD8 goes on 11, then SPD5.

 

Every round, each character gets at least one action, which makes people much less likely to hem and haw... they are willing to shoot and miss... set up shots... yell commands... all that stuff that actually takes time... because they will get an action next roun.

 

Better yet, it allows slowers SPD characters to sometimes go BEFORE faster speeds. Things are a touch more random, and a low SPD character can easily run alongside high speeds.

 

Best of all, it eliminates any concept of post segment 12... so no auto recoveries which drag combat out. You have to take an action to recover.

 

Combats are fast and furious and a real blast this way. YMMV, but I'd suggest at least trying it once. (Yes, incorporating this rule change will take some tweaking of velocity modifiers, END Reserver recovery, etc., but they are minor issues.) For timing purposes, four combat rounds of this system are equivalent of 12 full segments of the SPD chart.

 

If you try it... lemme know what you think.

[Mike W]

For reasons I posted on another thread, I'm against eliminating END, it's a balance factor. So to is SPD. People with higher SPD should, generally, have lower DCs and such. And the SPD difference is relative to the comics/movies too. After all, Bruce Lee gets more punches than the bad guys, Hulk doesn't act as often as, say Capt. America(but he hits a lot harder than Cap), and so on.

 

Players need to be thinking ahead. The GM in our games has, for years, worked out a SPD chart in advance so it is simply a matter of looking down the chart to see who goes next. Players are given a BRIEF time to ask questions to clarify the situation or to debate and then they HAVE to declare an action or they are passed and their character is declared indecisive(they can still use the action if they think of something before their next phase, the character is assumed to be holding). Combat goes smoothly and we can run a full adventure with a 5 on 5(or so) combat in 4 hours or less consistently.

[dstarfire]

One thing I find totally obnoxious about speed, is that higher speed characters ALWAYS go before lower speed characters. How often you go should be seperate from when you go.

 

I almost discarded my cleric that was basically an undead-annihilating tank (he's also pretty decent in normal combat) because my spd was 1 lower than all but one other player. Almost always, by the time I got to go, all the enemies had been killed. Unless I got in a solid hit on my first attack, I spent the whole combat twiddling my thumbs.

 

Spd

[lemming]

One other way to speed combat, once a villian is out, have them stay out.

It also lets the heroes act more heroic and not have to keep pounding the villians head into the curb.

[ghost-angel]

Originally posted by dstarfire

One thing I find totally obnoxious about speed, is that higher speed characters ALWAYS go before lower speed characters. How often you go should be seperate from when you go.

 

I almost discarded my cleric that was basically an undead-annihilating tank (he's also pretty decent in normal combat) because my spd was 1 lower than all but one other player. Almost always, by the time I got to go, all the enemies had been killed. Unless I got in a solid hit on my first attack, I spent the whole combat twiddling my thumbs.

 

Spd

 

unless they act in the same phase in which case DEX determines order, regardless of SPD. If a SPD8 DEX13 and SPD4 DEX23 Character go in the same phase the DEX23 guy goes first. SPD just lets you go more times per Turn.

 

Most characters will have at least SPD3 or 4, so they will go by Segment 3, unless you've got Super High SPD ppl they will only get one action before the lower SPD character on average.

[Bloodshot]

Originally posted by RDU Neil

Just my .02

 

I tossed the SPD chart a long time ago. The use of the chart penalized slower SPD characters much more than 10 points difference should really do, IMO. Because players saw each phase as so "precious" they would take too much time deciding what to do. The SPD chart forced characters to fear "wasting an action" which increased their attempts to hash over every option, debate every option, think through every option... and IMO totally destroyed any "danger... fast... action... threat!" feel of combat.

 

I

 

This may actually work pretty good for what I am looking for. How did you handle aborts and game effects that lasted X number of phases or Y number of segments?

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by Bloodshot

This may actually work pretty good for what I am looking for. How did you handle aborts and game effects that lasted X number of phases or Y number of segments?

 

I handle X Phases or X segments mostly as "X rounds"

 

doesn't matter what SPD you have, or when you initiatize... but a continuing attack or something like that, goes off once per round, no matter how many second (or very rarely, third) actions happen.

 

That's the generic answer. If you have specific questions about specific powers/effects/maneuvers. Let me know.

 

As for "end of segment/end of phase" actions like Haymaker... they just go off after all other first actions are done, but before any second actions.

 

Blocking, which sets you up to strike first, still works that way... but it means you go first in the next round. Thus, if a charcter with a single action is attacked by a character with two actions... they can choose to abort to block the first attack... continue blocking to try to block the second attack at a -2... only have to succeed at one of the blocks to be set up for first initiative the next round. (They will still roll initiative, but against that one foe, they can go first, no matter what is rolled.)

[zornwil]

Personally I would hate to lose the SPD chart but as to Rebar's original point, I think those are fine solutions (as well as much posted since) - given his gaming team is mature. I do think as someone from his game pointed out, the bigger issue for many games (regardless of being HERO) is the indecisive player or the player who wishes to so fully "ground" himself it takes many minutes just to even get him to the point where he's even considering a decision. As to egg timers, I tried that once; as was pointed out, didn't really work too well, although we did keep it as the VPP cut-off - if you wanted to create a power on the fly, it had to be done in egg-timer time.

[Al_Beddow]

After reading this excellent discussions it brought to mind the various rules & techniques I've instituted over the years to speed combat up.

 

First... pay attention to what is going on. Occasionaly asking a clarifying question is ok, but if you do it every time you get to act... I start skipping you when you ask.

 

Second... Have a clue what you are going to do so you are ready when it's your turn. I had a player who insisted on re-calculating the entire situation. His AC/DEF, Hit Points, what he had in his hands, etc. The guy was a math major (he did statistical analysis of various types of die rolls for FUN). He finally got a clue when I began skipping over him because he was taking time to do math during battle.

 

Three... Know what your stats, spells, weapons, etc. do (damage, etc). Having to constantly ask for this basic information (or look for the right dice) just slows everything down.

 

Four... I keep a copy of everyone's charactersheet with me behind the screen (oh thank you HeroDesigner) and when combat starts I quickly write down who goes on what phase, and their dex... I just keep moving along and skip the phases where nothing is going on.

 

Five... rewards for good roleplaying (and penalties for poor RPing and/'or excessive metagaming). Stay in character, act (or react) only on what your character knows, and keep the game going.

 

 

 

 

[Bloodshot]

Re: speeding up combat

 

 

That's the generic answer. If you have specific questions about specific powers/effects/maneuvers. Let me know.

 

 

We ran a fairly large combat with this on Saturday night (17 combatants) and it was pretty fast and furious! But one big question came up, and it was raised by Rebar. The character he was playing has a 6 SPD and said the following to me in an e-mail:

 

*****

For example, I've spent 75 points to have a 26 Dex and a 6 SPD. The 6 SPD gives me only a 1-in-3 chance of having a second action, and zero chance of having a third action. So, 2/3rds of the time I will be able to act only as many times as a normal. That contrasts with the traditional rules, where a 6 SPD normally goes 3x faster than a normal all the time. Also, DEX is less important, as it is now your SPD that determines your initiative.

*****

 

He does have a pretty valid point. Thoughts?

[tesuji]

Re: speeding up combat

 

Axiom 1: if player reactivity and consideration is at the heart of the delay, you will need to lessen that reactivity in order to speed things up.

 

Axiom 2: More actions and more actions sooner speeds up combats. The slower actions come about in turn order, the more free recoveries people get.

 

Radical suggestion.

 

1. Drop speed chart and 12 segment turns.

2. each turn is as long as the highest speed character action. So if the highest speed guy is speed 7, the turn will have seven rounds.

3. Every character gets one action each round until they have used them up. So a speed 5 guy would act on rounds 1-5 in the seven round turn above and take 6-7 off.

4. Actions within a round are determined as follows...

 

4a. Decision phase. The Gm and the players all decide their character's actions for the round. This is done individually and without discussion.

4b Players reveal their actions. Gm reveals his.

4c. Actions are resolved in dex order.

4d. go on to next round.

 

5. Reactive changes during a round are limited to holding and aborting.

5a. If you hold an action you must declare an if then at the start. If the IF occurs you then do the then, provided your dex order has come and gone. if the IF does not occur by the end of the round, your action is lost.

5b. Aborts may be made as usual and are the only way to change your stated actions. They use your next round action or a held if it is available.

 

6. Characters can make moderate soliloquies for coordination purposes during their phases. Obviously these are for coordinating NEXT ROUND actions. Long or details conversations will take a half action or more.

 

Note that the above limits the insteant reactivity to abortive and well thought out if-then. Most of the time you will get to "react" on your next round choice, not immediately.

 

The lack of communication in decision phase will lead to more hurley burly combats with less military precision... which seems apropos for many super conflicts.

 

If you want to allow for more coordinated planning, allow a teamwork skill roll to allow two or more characters to communicate briefly during the decision phase, representing training they have done, recognizable and planned one-two combinations and even quick combat signals. The XMen would be a good example of a team who have teamwork skill ranks at various levels.

[Blue]

Re: speeding up combat

 

Reminds me of WoD games. You have everybody taking their turn up front and then everyone who still has celerity or (I forget the equivalent in Werewolf) goes again and again until they run out.

[CorpCommander]

Re: speeding up combat

 

But the house rule that really makes the difference, I think, is this: When your action comes around, you must immediately lead off your Phase with a soliloquy, then take your actions. If you aren't ready to go when your number comes up, you lose that Phase. (You get no screen time if you've got nothing to say!

 

That rules! Wow, what a great idea. I knew a GM that used to spring a surprise on players, quickly ask them "What do you do?" and when they responded with "Ahhhhhhhh?" he'd respond and say, "that's what I thought you'd do," and move on to the next player!

 

What conventions do you run your game at? I'd love to see it or play in it!