New GM/How do I balance Armor?

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Greenstar

 

(list of some excellent suggestions deleted)

 

Now, all this will restrict the tank somewhat. But really - knights were armored like that for a reason - it gave them a huge edge in combat. They could just wade through the groundlings and not worry too much about getting hurt. That's why knights tended to fight each other, as the commoners were "beneath them".

 

We know armor was effective in real life, but the point is to emulate fantasy fiction, where a quick, lightly armored warrior can hold his own against a 'lumbering' armored knight.

 

But when it had it's drawbacks, they were big ones (the mud at Agincourt, for example).

 

I don't know if that's the armor's fault so much as a terminal lack of common sense on the part of the French. "Let's charge right into the deep mud at the feet of the English bowmen!" Um, no. Common sense might have saved them at Crecy, too.

[Guest Green Giant]

In brief, what are the Fourth edition rules regarding the armor. I imagine that the only major genre that is affected by these particulars is the fantasy one. I think I am just going to have to impose the dcv/dex penalties. Has this one point been brought up on the 5th edition Fantasy wish list?

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Yamo

For the last time: Combat Luck, Combat Luck, Combat Luck!

 

So uh.......

 

What about the plate armored guy that has Combat Luck?

 

 

hehehe

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Green Giant

In brief, what are the Fourth edition rules regarding the armor. I imagine that the only major genre that is affected by these particulars is the fantasy one. I think I am just going to have to impose the dcv/dex penalties. Has this one point been brought up on the 5th edition Fantasy wish list?

 

What I did was use the encumbrance rules from FREd and also slapped on an additional penalty of -1 DCV for medium armor (chain,scale) and -2 DCV for heavy armor (plate). The combination of the two should do it. Armor, shield, weapons and junks would be putting him at -3 DCV /Dex even if he has 20 STR.

[Earthson]

The beauty of HERO

 

One thing I enjoy about playing Hero over D&D is the concept of STUN and a hit location table that doesn't guck things up too bad. A knight in full plate that has the snot beat out of him despite only have a few minor bruises is every bit as unconcious and exhausted as the poor sod who when into combat stark naked and was chopped to death, only less dead. I was watching a Scientific American Frontiers about midevil plate mail and knights were overcome by quanity of wounds not necisarrily shall we say "quality" of wounds. Lots of painful scratches and very few if any arrows right through the heart. Otherwise take inspiration from the Two Towers and let an orc have a bow that does 2d6 AP, plus a few skill levels. Or from D&D, remember rust monsters?

[kevbryan33]

I had this problem in my game too. I used the high shot(head to vitals) -2 ocv 2d6+1, or the (head shot) -4 ocv 1d6+3. If the PC wanted to take the -3 dcv for full plate then I alway took it as a easy way to do placed shots.That dwarfs heads looks good not moving, why not take a poke at it. with the extra sunt X it makes thing more balance. I think almost any char. would take a -1 for a chance to do a head shot.

[Syberdwarf2]

I apolozie ahead of time if I'm treading on ground already covered; I have yet to read all of the posts...

 

Back when I still played DnD, there was a great article on 'making orcs a threat again' or something like that. Anyway, the thing that sticks out in my mind is that if you had 10 orcs in a room with the heavily armored paladin blocking the only entrance, then the paladin wins hands-down.

 

However, put that same paladin in full plate, and stick him in the middle of a dense, humid, hot forest. Now take those same orcs, give them bows and stick 'em in the trees. Even if they only hit part of the time, a scared orc can outrun a larger humanoid in full plate. Especially a wounded one. The little buggers could pick him off and wear him down.

Orcs, contrary to popular depiction, are not mindless cannon fodder. A species must have intelligence if it is to develop any reasonably effective technology such as bows, arrows, and swords.

 

10 orcs wearing little if any armor, unencumbered, firing missile weapons from hidden, mobile positions.

 

Reminds me also of Robin Hood: Prince of Theives. Robin/Kevin Costner says something like "Even this small boy can be taught to find the chinks in a suit of armor". Even a stupid creature built on 25 points, armed with a bow and arrow, in part of a group, firing from all directions is a VERY real threat to a fully armored character.

 

To put it in a more modern perspective (sorry, I realize this is Fantasy HERO, but still)....

A group of poorly trained rebel Afghani fighters armed with simple infantry weapons can take down a tank. Just ask the Russians.....

[LordGhee]

In my fantasy empire game I for the frist time allowed player to play anything at 150 points, I got a prince, sargent (heavy fighter) mage, bird man, sage, and a Blood guard (MA) ect the MA due to Phy lim fought in the front and did very well.

 

Lord Ghee

[LordGhee]

Dear Green,

What is the tech in your game. what is the society based on. (tolkien, japan where MA and heavy fighters romed, England, Arthurian, robinhood). Is combat the point of your game. what in a board genarl way are the party doing (drop the ring, mage, painting in the moutain. fleeing family going to war find the items person trade route.

Need a little info to help you balance the fights>

 

Lord Ghee

[Talon]

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2

Reminds me also of Robin Hood: Prince of Theives. Robin/Kevin Costner says something like "Even this small boy can be taught to find the chinks in a suit of armor"

 

Heh, if you want to call to mind an appropriate Robin Hood movie scene, try the "let's ride into Sherwood" scene from Robian and Marian.

 

"Next time you ride through Sherwood...keep yer visor /down/."

[Guest Green Giant]

I am running a "generic" campaign. this is the first couple of games using the HERO system and the first time for me GMing in some time, so I decided I wanted to play in familiar territory as much as possible. Tech level kinds stops at crossbows, and even those are hard to find. dwarves, elves, hobbits, humans. The whole generic Tolkien bit with D&D morality. The whole question came up because I wanted all the players to have combat fun on similar opponents without having to worry about the realism of orc guerilla tactics or to focus so much time on enforcing mundane difficulties with platemail. The point listed on the thread are all valid ways to model a campaign, to be sure, but are not what I am looking for. I am aiming for a more comic-booky solution. I think I will just impose a DCV/DEX penalty of -1, -2, -3 for armor 6, 7, and 8.

 

-Chris

[keithcurtis]

Some quick thoughts:

Combat Luck works better with an ACT roll, IMHO. It's more dramatic and gives the possibility of being hurt by a knife blow, just a smaller likelihood.

 

It's easy to stop heavily armored people from using Combat Luck: Don't allow it! You are simulating dramatic luck, not reality. If you want, you can put an extra -1/4 on combat luck (can't use while wearing armor, but I wouldn't bother. It's cheap enough already.

 

Other ideas for restricting armor wearing. Laws. Make it illegal to wear anything greater than leather while in a town. The local magistrates don't want people running around who can scoff at the constabulary. You can also institute similar restrictions on weaponry, particularly missile weapons.

 

If the party is going on month-long treks through wilderness, require an hour or two per day for armor maintenance.

 

Yes, I have seen articles that state that plate armor is not encumbering. Baloney. Why do professional athletes wear as little as possible? Why do backpackers agonize over the weight of an extra pair of socks? The more you carry, the more tired you get long term. Impose some real penalties on long term wear. And be realistic about sleeping in rmor, the amount of time it takes to put it on and so forth.

 

Intelligent foes. Logically, combatants will try and take out the biggest threat. Target the most threatening looking character more often. Also, use called shots, or in a variant we use (since we use armor on activation, not HitLoc), allow skill levels the option of reducing an activation roll as well as giving OCV/DCV/Damage bonuses.

 

Keith "Just some ideas" Curtis

[Old Man]

It's a good idea to disallow any kind of defense stacking in FH, whether it be armor, combat luck or force field. Only natural PD/ED should stack; of the others, take the highest value. Otherwise it's very easy to stack defenses to the point of total invulnerability.

[kirakane]

Just speaking of game balance in general there are a couple of good articals at RPG.net.

 

You could balance along other lines.

 

Light tanks do more damage per hit. They get to buy more DCs in martial arts for example.

 

Light tanks can buy force field or damage resistance based on the special effect of dodging. So light tanks rather than relying on gear rely on skilled combat.

 

Light tanks are the only ones with access to fencing martial arts.

 

Armor may need to be maintained so it costs money for upkeep.

[Yog Sothoth]

Further Armor & Encumbrace questions

 

Most don't like the FRed encumbrance rules, as written. Being to 'lite' for heroic genre.

 

I was wondering if anybody tried this, splitting encumbrance in multiples.

 

i.e. calculate Enc. for carried weight (back pack), and seperately calculate Enc. for Armor. Then add them up.

 

This might give heavy armor combatant more penalties. No more plate dude swiging from the chandelier. I never tried it so don't know the outcome. Just an idea I got.

 

Also, how would one calculate the activation roll penalty for different DEF, using one Activation Roll?

 

Example: Lets say a knight wearing plate, with padded leather underneath or chain. Armor has an activation roll, or is ablative. Now lets say the Activation Roll is 15-. A roll from 8 to 15 will attivate the plate (DEF 8), but a roll 7 or less will mean the blow passed in between the plate pieces, leaving only the underneath armor as protection (leather, DEF 3 lets say).

 

Would one call that a -0 SFX campaing limitation? Or would there be a better way to set the value of this limitation?

[keithcurtis]

Encumbrance:

 

I made a look-up table based on the 4th Edition encumbrance rules. You cross index your armor value to the activation roll and get your DCV mod from that. I double the value for my current campaign since the location is equatorial.

 

Keith "Not realistic, but quick and even-handed" Curtis

[Victor]

You could apply the DCV/DEX Roll penalties to movement, also... which a shield won't counteract (it might make it worse).

 

If having a 7 DEF second skin drops his movement from 7" to 5", travelling is going to be slower, and any sort of running fight, chase scene, or battle that isn't fought "toe to toe" is going to be more of a challenge.

[Old Man]

Penalties for movement are already in the 5th encumbrance rules

 

"The enemy shaman's hands begin to glow while he utters words of power to his totem. Armored guy is the target for his Weakness Spell (3d6 Suppress STR)."

[Old Man]

Magic always works, but the player is going to get suspicious when all the enemy wizards throw STR suppress and AP/Penetrating RKAs, yet never throw AE DEX drains or RKA explosions...

[AnotherSkip]

Originally posted by Yamo

For the last time: Combat Luck, Combat Luck, Combat Luck!

 

Welllllllllllllllllll

My suggestion is allow the characters to buy combat luck.. and ARMOR MAKES THEM LESS LUCKY!!!!

 

how's "that" for a disad that keeps on giving?

[AnotherSkip]

"Magic always works, but the player is going to get suspicious when all the enemy wizards throw STR suppress and AP/Penetrating RKAs, yet never throw AE DEX drains or RKA explosions..."- the old man

 

well because no one ever invented the things?

 

 

sorry couldn't resist.

[The Monster]

Maybe magicians don't use DEX Drains becasue they're too bloody expensive to be effective against people that have high DEX, whereas STR drops much faster for the same cost. You don't need magic to take care of random thugs; that's what bodyguards or your own gear and training are for. Battle magic is to do things professional soldiers can't easily do: take out large groups, and take out the heavily armored knights (well, plus futz with the enemy's control, communications, and sensory input). So it's kind of a stupid magician whose combat spell is a simple 2d6 RKA; at least it should be AP, EX, or something, or he's better off using a regular bow or crossbow (and no chance of side effects!). Whether it's swarms of insects, superhard steel, manifesting demon claws, or raw mystic energy, a magical attack should be something special - especially in Hero, where mages can wear armor and heft swords like anyone else. The "balance" between magician and warrior shouldn't depend on the magician's ability to use magic to do the same things the warrior does.

 

More to the orginal point though, if armor is really a problem in a campaign, I suppose encumbrance or DCV/DEX penalties could work (yes, you can run and do martial arts (even marital arts if you believe "Excalibur"), but you can't do them as well). The ultimate system fix is to charge points for armor and weapons. It's not the usual way of doing things, but if it's that big a concern and is making the campaign less fun, it's an easy and fair way to do it. You could even grandfather the characters in, granting them a certain number of points to buy their accustomed gear. Of course, you ought to have full build sheets for the various pieces of armor and weapons, but surely that isn't too big a problem.

 

Now, this still doesn't by itself solve the question of thieves wearing plate, but at least there is a clear point value to choosing armor over magic or skills.

[ShadowRaptor]

My .02

 

1. I don't know if this is in the rules, since I am still a newbie for all intents and purposes, but I do know that for heroic games to use a weapon well without penalties you need a Weapon Familiarity for it...so why not do the same thing for armor and have Armor Familiarities, and if a person is wearing they don't have a familiarity in then they suffer OCV/DCV penalties because they are not familiar with them.

 

2. You could do it like others have already stated, present a penalty to DCV based on the type of armor and material its made of...or just entirely base it off the weight of the armor and maybe come up with a talent or perk that allows people to fight better in armor, which could simulate somebody better trained in armor and in this case the person spent some points to become better in armor and can lower his penalty this way.

 

3. Use the rules as is, but why do that...

 

These are just ideas I have come up with, please reply to them and let me know what you all think of them.

[LordGhee]

Alright Green, I assume you listen and learn. that you are busy playing to learn the system. So what have you learned and discovered. How are you running your combat?

 

My final advice was just use it all end mods, strengh mods, dex mods and lenght of weapon rules and play.

 

so How you doing:cool:

 

sincerely

Lord Ghee