DCV from a character's size

[BobGreenwade]

Something's been bothering me about Combat Skill Levels with DCV defined as coming from a character's small size, and yesterday I finally put my finger on what it was.

 

Shouldn't such DCV levels have the Inherent Advantage? I mean, they're active all the time (even when the character is sleeping -- or dead), and they can't be Drained or taken away by any other means....

 

(I would have posted this in the rules question section, but technically this isn't a rules question; since it would've been moved to this section without a real answer anyway, I'm posting it here. While I understand the reasons for the "move without really answering" policy without needing to have them explained to me, though, I'd still like an answer from Steve....)

[Diamond Spear]

If a player wanted a character to have DCV bonuses based on size I would simply require them to buy the shrinking power with the modifiers of always on and 0 END.

[Tech]

I'm interesting in hearing someone else's take on this also. FYI though, I have a 4 ft tall hero who has Inherent on his DCV levels due to size. Although Inherent is interesting, I can't recall off-hand anyone in CKC having taken this advantage.

[Diamond Spear]

Also, don't forget that a character small enough to get DCV levels from their size should also take a D.F. disadvantage.

[ghost-angel]

Originally posted by Diamond Spear

If a player wanted a character to have DCV bonuses based on size I would simply require them to buy the shrinking power with the modifiers of always on and 0 END.

 

FREd specifically suggests you don't do this. But, it's your game after all.

--

As for the question itself, you could easily define it as Always On, Inherent... or you could reason from effects and just assume it's always being used. If the DCV-SL is defined as "small" then it's acceptable to assume the character is always using it, even out of combat.

 

but that'd be up to the GM. My GM would make us buy Inherent I'm sure.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Tech

I'm interesting in hearing someone else's take on this also. FYI though, I have a 4 ft tall hero who has Inherent on his DCV levels due to size. Although Inherent is interesting, I can't recall off-hand anyone in CKC having taken this advantage.

It's not used this way in the Bestiary or any other official book that I'm aware of either -- that's why I bring it up.

[austenandrews]

Off the top of my head, I would apply Inherent to Shrinking DCV levels at no charge. They can be a curse as well as a boon (i.e., it's hard to grab a shrunken teammate who's unconscious). Conversely, I would probably allow the shrinker to waive the use of the levels, if he's lucid enough to do so (such as to allow a teammate to grab him).

 

-AA

[Legendsmiths]

4

Size DCV: +1 with DCV, Inherent (+1/4), Persistent (+1/2) (9 Active Points); Always On (-1/2), Limited Power Size Based Modifier (-1/4), Visible (-1/4)

 

That comes out to 4, but I prefer a cost of 3, simply because that balances with the Penalty Skill Levels, and being able to buy skill in offsetting the size penalty for small creatures (if you wanted to).

[Lord Liaden]

I have to wonder how often "Drain DCV levels" would even come up in game. Reducing a target's CV is generally handled by Adjusting DEX, the application of Negative CSLs, or perhaps Change Environment - none of which would actually remove any levels that the target has. At the moment I'm having trouble coming up with a SFX rationale for a general "Drain CSL" Power; if it doesn't come up in the course of play, IMHO there's no practical need to deal with Inherent in this case.

 

(Now watch someone come up with the perfect "Drain CSL" example.)

[Legendsmiths]

I agree. Certainly you could do a change environment for a few point penalty, but that wouldn't have any effect on the size based DCV.

 

The generic "Hard to Hit" power used for some small creatures in Bestiary and MMM is supposed to represent some of that, but that costs a full 5 and isn't inherent.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I have to wonder how often "Drain DCV levels" would even come up in game. Reducing a target's CV is generally handled by Adjusting DEX, the application of Negative CSLs, or perhaps Change Environment - none of which would actually remove any levels that the target has. At the moment I'm having trouble coming up with a SFX rationale for a general "Drain CSL" Power; if it doesn't come up in the course of play, IMHO there's no practical need to deal with Inherent in this case.

 

(Now watch someone come up with the perfect "Drain CSL" example.)

While this would be rare, I'm really more concerned with the DCV of a small being while asleep. One cannot (normally) use Combat Skill Levels, for DCV or otherwise, while in that state. Normally this would be Persistent (+1/4), but Inherent seems to just cover the whole situation better.

[Legendsmiths]

But something must be persistent to be inherent, so you have to have both (as in my power write-up).

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

While this would be rare, I'm really more concerned with the DCV of a small being while asleep. One cannot (normally) use Combat Skill Levels, for DCV or otherwise, while in that state. Normally this would be Persistent (+1/4), but Inherent seems to just cover the whole situation better.

 

I'm afraid I'm not really seeing why this would be an issue. Practically speaking, you can easily hit anything that's asleep because it's immobile and oblivious. I always just assumed this would be the same as being Knocked Out: OCV, DCV and ECV at zero.

 

Are there issues I'm missing?

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I'm afraid I'm not really seeing why this would be an issue. Practically speaking, you can easily hit anything that's asleep because it's immobile and oblivious. I always just assumed this would be the same as being Knocked Out: OCV, DCV and ECV at zero.

 

Are there issues I'm missing?

Just one: all other things being equal, it's harder to hit Verne Troyer than Paul "Big Show" Wight, even if they're asleep. It's not a matter of just walking up and punching the target in the belly; it could easily be a matter of throwing or shooting at the target. Or they could even be standing still and oblivious, but it would still be harder to hit Verne than Paul.

[Legendsmiths]

While your DCV is zero, target size is still a factor (otherwise playing darts would be simple). I would only make this an issue in combat (e.g. a small character KO) if someone were trying to off the target. Out of combat there would be no roll.

 

We had an encounter (no size issues however) where the leader was KOd but not dead (not at all). He had a persistent FF up, making it very difficult to hurt him. One of the players was trying to hit his head (1/2 hit loc pen = -4), which implies that size mods would be halved as well. The head is a smaller target and relative to the conversation, but his base DCV was 0. It was a dramatic moment as the player was trying to finish him off while other baddies were shooting arrows at him, not to mention the pressure of reinforcements.

 

For reference, we play that thugs don't get recoveries and such so when they're out they're out. Signature NPCs however do, so finishing off such a character is important. If the mooks could have drove them off they could have saved their leader, knowing that he was protected. Once he was dead however, they ran.

[ghost-angel]

Re: DCV from a character's size

 

If you're trying to hit a sleeping small character I would leave it up to the GM to decide if the DCVs due to Size apply .. I wouldn't force a character to purchase Persistent/Inherent on DCV skill levels definded as "Small Person" just to make sure they're still 'small' when asleep for purposes of how hard it is to hit a smaller creature than a larger one.

 

This falls under what I call the Common Sense Rule, if it makes perfect sense that someone defined as Small still has DCV mods due to size when KO'd or Asleep then they get to keep them without needing to buy Persistent/Inherent ... unless they spend most of the campaign KO'd or otherwise unconcious, then I might look into it further.

 

Don't look for ways to ignore the special effects of something because it wasn't bought to cover every single possible situation - that's just a way to frustrate players and GMs alike. (On that note, to start disregarding the rules too much either..)

[Legendsmiths]

Re: DCV from a character's size

 

Agreed. That should be part of the special effect.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: DCV from a character's size

 

Just one: all other things being equal' date=' it's harder to hit Verne Troyer than Paul "Big Show" Wight, even if they're asleep. It's not a matter of just walking up and punching the target in the belly; it could easily be a matter of throwing or shooting at the target. Or they could even be standing still and oblivious, but it would still be harder to hit Verne than Paul.[/quote']

 

Okay, I see your point. If it was up to me, in that case I think I'd just add or subtract the Target Size Modifiers, using DCV 0 as the base. Personally I wouldn't charge or penalize someone's character sheet for this; after all, inanimate objects take these modifiers for free.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: DCV from a character's size

 

Or do they? Didn't the right up for the towel include a size modifier? <Fuels Fire>

[Lord Liaden]

Re: DCV from a character's size

 

Or do they? Didn't the right up for the towel include a size modifier? <Fuels Fire>

 

Ah, but that was an in-combat modifier. As we all know, towels can be deadly weapons, but they're kinda wimpy just lying on the floor.

[Drakkenkin]

Re: DCV from a character's size

 

(Now watch someone come up with the perfect "Drain CSL" example.)

 

I don't know if you really wanted an example but here are two.

1) A spell caster that drains knowledge that another people has learned.

2) A SIFI device that blocks the brains pathways that allow the target to use the knowledge that he has learned in regard to specific subjects.

(Knowledge learned being defined as DCV and OCV skill levels)

[Snarf]

Re: DCV from a character's size

 

Another situation size could apply is when a character got stunned and his skill levels turned unassigned. Persistent or inherent DCV would still be working.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: DCV from a character's size

 

I never use Inherent, for this or anything else. Well, actually, in a sense I do, but I don't charge for it. It's a +0 Advantage in my games. IMHO, Inherent means nothing more than "I can't think of a SFX that could justify Draining/Suppressing/Dispelling/Transferring this." But just because you can't think of one, doesn't mean no one else can.

 

While it does seem a little odd to have a "Drain Smallness" power - i.e., it makes you normal sized instead of small - it could be done.

 

The problem I have with size/CV is that due to the added DCV for littl'uns and reduced DCV for big'uns, two littl'uns fighting have a hard time laying a hand on each other and to big'uns fighting can hardly miss!

[BobGreenwade]

Re: DCV from a character's size

 

I never use Inherent' date=' for this or anything else. Well, actually, in a sense I do, but I don't charge for it. It's a +0 Advantage in my games. IMHO, Inherent means nothing more than "I can't think of a SFX that could justify Draining/Suppressing/Dispelling/Transferring this." But just because you can't think of one, doesn't mean no one else can. [/quote'] My litmus test: if you still have it when you're dead, it's Inherent.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: DCV from a character's size

 

That's why you have to have an equivalent OCV.

 

2 smalluns are +2 OCV +2 DCV. If they attack each other, they are net +0, if they attack a normal it is at +2 and the normal is -2 to hit them.

 

Adding the OCV mod is key however. If you don't do that, it doesn't work.