DEX vs. CSLs

[Dust Raven]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Of course the CSL dude in your example is optimized to fight one single opponent. The Dex guy is much better overall, especially when facing multiple foes. Especially if they have a mix of range and hth attacks.

 

6 agents with dex 14, 3 with range attacks and 3 with hth attacks, will crush B, but will most likely lose to A.

Lets loose that level with Block and buy that point of DEX.

 

Our guy can put his levels into DCV and Martial Dodge, and switch to OCV on his extra phases and take out the ranged agents, then just mop up the HTH agents.

 

The DEX guy might do it quicker, but if the agents use sound tactics, coordinate and or stagger their phases, either Hero is toast.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Our guy can put his levels into DCV and Martial Dodge' date=' and switch to OCV on his extra phases and take out the ranged agents, then just mop up the HTH agents.[/quote']

 

In fairness, that's a ramification of his higher SPD, and both guys likely share that characteristic. Level Lad has more options to (ab)use his higher SPD, though.

 

The DEX guy might do it quicker' date=' but if the agents use sound tactics, coordinate and or stagger their phases, either Hero is toast.[/quote']

 

Dextrous Dan has a DCV of 8, right? He can Martial Dodge to 13. 6 co-ordinating agents take him back down to an 8. Level Lad gets a 17 DCV (4 + 5 Dodge + 8 levels), and can be reduced to a 12. LL is going to be lots tougher to hit than DD.

 

Let's say our agents stagger phases so LL and DD can't keep swapping back and forth with this Dodge nonsense. 3 agents fire on each phase. They coordinate. Let's give DD has a DCV of 8 (8 +2 maneuver - 2 for multi attacker bonus), and that also gices him a OCV of 8.

 

LL has choices. He can match DD's OCV, and put 4 levels in DCV. He now matches DD perfectly. Or he can have an OCV of 4 and a DCV of 12. Which one will he choose? What's the Agents' DCV? And as the multi attacker bonus falls because he takes out some agents, he can change is OCV/DCV mix. DD can't.

 

Let's change the opponent. It's a ranged attacker with a ton of range levels, and a 10 OCV. DD has his 8 DCV He can Martial Dodge to get a 13. LL can martial dodge and have a 17 DCV. Each phase closing, DD gets hit on an 8-., and LL on a 4-. Who's more likely to get close before being toast? Blaster needs to soak 4d6 into Spread to even up the odds - that means they each get hit as often but DD takes 14 more STUN per shot, on average. Who will be Stunned?

 

Flexibility has value. There are also situations where DD will be better off, of course, but the split doesn't seem to favour him unduly.

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Lets loose that level with Block and buy that point of DEX.

 

Our guy can put his levels into DCV and Martial Dodge, and switch to OCV on his extra phases and take out the ranged agents, then just mop up the HTH agents.

 

The DEX guy might do it quicker, but if the agents use sound tactics, coordinate and or stagger their phases, either Hero is toast.

 

The agents hold phases. The CSL's affect DCV only with martial dodge. Any other application toward DCV means that they affect only ranged or only hth attacks. So Level Dude either never attacks, or will be taken out the first phase that he does.

 

Dex Guy has no such problems. He maintains his full DCV in all situations, regardless of whether his opponents are using HTH or Range.

 

Now let's take a standard battle with a supervillain team. On any phases where Level Dude actually attacks, he's going to be DCV 3 to someone. Most likely to range attacks since his 3 pt levels presumably are with his martial arts. And needless to say, having a DCV 3 for a martial artist vs range attacks isn't a good thing in a supervillain fight. Of course Level Dude can martial dodge forever, but then he wouldn't actually be of any use in the fight.

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

LL has choices. He can match DD's OCV' date=' and put 4 levels in DCV. He now matches DD perfectly. Or he can have an OCV of 4 and a DCV of 12. Which one will he choose? What's the Agents' DCV? And as the multi attacker bonus falls because he takes out some agents, he can change is OCV/DCV mix. DD can't. [/quote']

 

LL can't put his levels in DCV vs at least one form of attack. If his 3 pt'ers are in martial arts, he can only put them in DCV vs hth attacks. The agents with range attacks will shred him.

 

Let's change the opponent. It's a ranged attacker with a ton of range levels, and a 10 OCV. DD has his 8 DCV He can Martial Dodge to get a 13. LL can martial dodge and have a 17 DCV. Each phase closing, DD gets hit on an 8-., and LL on a 4-. Who's more likely to get close before being toast? Blaster needs to soak 4d6 into Spread to even up the odds - that means they each get hit as often but DD takes 14 more STUN per shot, on average. Who will be Stunned?

 

Again, you're optimizing him against one single opponent. A mix of opponents in a superfight will result in at least one range attacker hitting him while DCV 3 after he attacks.

 

Flexibility has value. There are also situations where DD will be better off, of course, but the split doesn't seem to favour him unduly.

 

Yes it does.

[Earen]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Ok ... to summarize, what I'm seeing here is that Level Lad is going to be better than Dextrous Dan in Level Lad's area of expertise ... as constructed, that happens to be HtH combat. But, conversely Level Lad is going to be worse than Dextrous Dan outside that area of expertise, i.e. ranged combat.

 

This would seem to me to be balanced ... for the same amount of points, I can decide if I want to be decent at all combat (Dextrous Dan) or very good at a particular type of combat (hoping that I can keep it to that type of combat the majority of the time).

 

The examples above showed me where I remember CSL's flexibility coming from though. In the straight-up fight between DD and LL, LL had the flexibility to choose how to approach things ... and the skill to make it work. DD just had to "makes his rolls and takes his (albeit good) chances ..."

 

Thanks everyone for the scads of input ... I'm feeling much better about my knowledge in this area now

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Ok ... to summarize' date=' what I'm seeing here is that Level Lad is going to be better than Dextrous Dan [b']in Level Lad's area of expertise[/b] ... as constructed, that happens to be HtH combat. But, conversely Level Lad is going to be worse than Dextrous Dan outside that area of expertise, i.e. ranged combat.

 

LL is going to be better against one single opposing hand to hand fighter. Maybe. It's still not a given, since he only has the same number of total levels as DD. LL can at best maintain a stalemate, or trade blows, but he's not going to actually land any more blows than DD. And of course DD has the advantage in skill rolls and initiative. Very handy once you start making those acrobatics and breakfall rolls. I'd say it's a draw here.

 

Outside of hand to hand, LL is much worse. He has a DCV of 3, and it'll never get much better than that unless he dodges.

 

Generally, LL is like the person with 50 PD and 10 ED, while DD is the person with 30 PD and 30 ED, and other bonuses. Opponents knowing their weaknesses can easily just target LL with the attack he's vulnerable to. With DD, it really doesn't matter what type attack is directed his way.

 

This would seem to me to be balanced ... for the same amount of points, I can decide if I want to be decent at all combat (Dextrous Dan) or very good at a particular type of combat (hoping that I can keep it to that type of combat the majority of the time).

 

I disagree. The fact that the DCV from Dex is virtually unlimited while the DCV from 3 pt CSLs are heavily limited, clearly shows Dex's dominance. Not to mention the other perks of high dex such as skill rolls and initiative.

 

The examples above showed me where I remember CSL's flexibility coming from though. In the straight-up fight between DD and LL, LL had the flexibility to choose how to approach things ... and the skill to make it work. DD just had to "makes his rolls and takes his (albeit good) chances ..."

 

Thanks everyone for the scads of input ... I'm feeling much better about my knowledge in this area now

 

Flexibility is nice, but having everything at the same time is even nicer.

[Vondy]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Raw Dex is undoubtedly more efficient than skill levels in the majority of cases.

 

It doesn't change the fact that munchkins abuse it in lieu of an actual character concept on a regular basis.

 

Remember, when your roll playing, everyone is an olympic class gymnast.

[RSC]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Raw Dex is undoubtedly more efficient than skill levels in the majority of cases.

 

It doesn't change the fact that munchkins abuse it in lieu of an actual character concept on a regular basis.

 

Remember, when your roll playing, everyone is an olympic class gymnast.

 

Or buy 30 points of dex and call the special effect "Improved performance from extensive training and combat experience." What you call it and how you buy it are two different things, so how it's purchased mechanically within the game isn't directly limited by what your character concept is, as you can describe the effect however you want.

[ghost-angel]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Special effects and character concept can be very instrumental in design and how to buy certain things.

 

Take Sharpshooter the Sniper.. He's an awesome shot, from almost any range with just about any gun you hand him. Other than that the guys pretty average, might even have a bit of a pot belly and a bum leg.

 

How does one simulate Bum Leg with Awesome Shot?

 

Surely not Dex, that would imply he's quick on his feet, ready to move, gets out of the way quickly. CSLs do the job much better, especially if they're a combination of PenaltySLs vs Range, 5pts CSLs for Ranged Combat and a few 3pt CSLs with Rifles. He's good with any gun, but a dead ringer with a rifle.

 

This way you don't have to exaplain why the guy with a Bum Leg has a DEX score of 33 and he's still got a very high OCV.

 

Or Precog Man .. he's a bookworm, never really did much in a gym, but you just can't seem to hit him - he always knows where those attacks are coming from and moves out of the way. Again, several DCV CSLs versus various attacks (maybe the closer the attack the better he is so more HTH DCV CSLs than Ranged ones). Now you've got a low-dex guy (to simulate years of near non-activity) who is hard to hit in combat.

 

Sure - point for point DEX is the better buy. Go ahead and muchkin your way around the game in hopes of "winning" or "maxing the system" or whatever you want to say to justify it .. I'll be over here trying to make interesting people to play who aren't all clones of each other with DEX-Monkey Syndrome.

[Dust Raven]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Then again, we're only looking at the CV of DEX vs Levels.

 

Say DD and LL each went up against the traditional low-dex, nigh invulnerable brick. LL Will be able to take him down where DD probably couldn't.

 

Why? Because LL can turn all his levels into +4 DC with his attacks to penetrate the brick's defenses. The extra CV isn't gonna help as much against someone with the same or lower CV as yourself.

[Guest Kolava]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Ghost-Angel has a point, but I think it's unfair to slam DEX characters so generally. Are you implying that no character can ever buy high DEX without being a boring, munchkined clone? If this is true, the solution isn't to buy Levels instead, it should be to fix DEX. My current character has 30 DEX because he is swift, has hair-trigger reflexes, and has such keen hand-eye-coordination that its almost like minor precognition. Why should I be made to feel guilty just because I focused 60 points into DEX rather then buying 60 points worth of levels?

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Then again, we're only looking at the CV of DEX vs Levels.

 

Say DD and LL each went up against the traditional low-dex, nigh invulnerable brick. LL Will be able to take him down where DD probably couldn't.

 

Why? Because LL can turn all his levels into +4 DC with his attacks to penetrate the brick's defenses. The extra CV isn't gonna help as much against someone with the same or lower CV as yourself.

 

But if you do that, you'd have OCV/DCV of 3. Which means that you have a very good chance of not hitting, and even if you do hit, you'll get clobbered by the brick's return attack.

 

And that doesn't change the fact that in general, Dex is far superior to CSLs.

[Lezentauw]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

I am of the mind that one is not really that much better than the other. DD has more stable CVs, and in certain situations is better off. LL has more flexability, and can adapt more easily to situations.

 

When you compare DD vs LL, you are comparing two high CV characters. As far as stereotypes go, this is like comparing two MA's vs each other. The example above where LL can dictate how things go looks about right to me. It really is a reflection of the age old story where the physically adept youth gets schooled by the old mentor.

 

Like what was already stated as well though, once LL is out of his area of expertise. DD is better off. If DD & LL are in fact MAs, and have to use bows as an example. DD is better off now, as he still has his normal CVs.

 

In surprise situations, DD is better off as well as he has a higher base DCV. It is real hard to apply SLs verses an attack you do not know is coming.

 

Dive for Cover is based upon a Dex roll, so DD is better off to avoid that nasty fireball spell.

 

LL vs DD should not be the only comparison made though. Take Strong Steve for example. A strong character with low CVs, that neither LL nor DD want to get hit by. LL is better capable of making sure that SS does not hit him, and play the dictate game again. With SS's lower DCV, LL can even chose to not boost his OCV. He can go all DCV and DMG.

 

Another example would be versus Conjuring Curtis. Say CC is trying to summon a demon, and has to concentrate to do it. CC being prepared, previously raised his force field. DD will most likely hit, but is now relying upon the luck of dice to drop CC. LL though can move everything to OCV and DMG. He thereby increases his chances to hit and to drop CC.

[ghost-angel]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Ghost-Angel has a point' date=' but I think it's unfair to slam DEX characters so generally. Are you implying that no character can ever buy high DEX without being a boring, munchkined clone? If this is true, the solution isn't to buy Levels instead, it should be to fix DEX. My current character has 30 DEX because he is swift, has hair-trigger reflexes, and has such keen hand-eye-coordination that its almost like minor precognition. Why should I be made to feel guilty just because I focused 60 points into DEX rather then buying 60 points worth of levels?[/quote']

 

Apologies here .. I really didn't mean to stomp on the Dex-Based characters, the Gods only know I've played my share. Many of my characters tend towards a higher DEX just because it is so cost effective, but not so much that it's out of line with the character.

 

If you're playing a character who is a Dex Monster (like 99% of all Speedster types are) then the high Dex is more than justified. But if you're not playing a High Dex type character, say a classic Brick but you still want to hit stuff regularly, SLs make better story.

 

I just dislike the explanation of "I'm just trying to maximize my points." Sets me off, don't maximize your points - maximize your concept.

 

So no, don't feel guilty for playing Mr Nintendo Thumb with the kind of hand eye coordination that causes most video games to surrender to you.

[JmOz]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

One problem is that at times you want to represent a genre, that character concepts often go beyond what they should.

 

I am currently playing an archer with a very high Dex (29), I'll admit there are some Meta-Game reasons for it...I did not want him getting hit (The normal human guy almost never gets hit), and I wanted him to be a good shot (Archer always hits his mark, another genre thing). So what did I do?

 

Dex 29

Combat Archery Martial Arts (Defensive shot, Ranged Disarm, Ranged Trip)

+3 OCV with Bows

+4 RSL with Bows

Find Weakness w/Defensive Shot

 

I don't miss much, though I have been hit a number of times and I have the team record for being uncontious...

 

So, by concept, he should have a good dex (about 19-20) and more skill levels w/Bows, some with DCV, and some with pistols, Some Lightning Reflexes, etc... Instead I did it on the cheap and went with a very high dex. There is nothing wrong with this. It would be unfair for me to have to spend about 45 points to get what Dex gives for 30

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

But if you do that, you'd have OCV/DCV of 3. Which means that you have a very good chance of not hitting, and even if you do hit, you'll get clobbered by the brick's return attack.

 

And that doesn't change the fact that in general, Dex is far superior to CSLs.

 

In a campaign where martial artists have dexes of 23 and 11, I suspect a Brick may have trouble hitting DCV 4 (remember, we changed L to a DEX 11!). It's probably easier to view them as having Dexes of 23 and 35 from a Supers perspective.

 

And "vast superiority" is your opinion, not a generaly accepted fact, as the discussion seems to show. Is DD all around better off? Yes. But LL is the clearly superior melee combatant.

 

As well, our examples assume a Supoers campaign. Try the comparison where one character has a 29 DEX, and the other a 20 plus levels, in an NCM campaign. No question, skill levels are way more valuable once the cost of your stats doubles. Note JMOz' comment about paying 15 extra points to equate what he wants out of +10 DEX to skill levels. Doubkle the cost of the DEX, and the skill levels become clearly superior.

 

Unless you're going to vary the cost of skill levels between NCM and no NCM campoaigns, their cost eficiency will always be superior in an NCM game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

I just dislike the explanation of "I'm just trying to maximize my points." Sets me off' date=' don't maximize your points - maximize your concept.[/quote']

 

To quote from several character reviews "You misunderstand my question. I'm not asking why your character would WANT these abilities. I'm asking why he would HAVE them!" Gosh, I'd like a 150 point cosmic VPP too, but I suspect if I get hit by lightning this morning that's not likely to be the result...

[Trebuchet]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Raw Dex is undoubtedly more efficient than skill levels in the majority of cases.

 

It doesn't change the fact that munchkins abuse it in lieu of an actual character concept on a regular basis.

 

Remember, when your roll playing, everyone is an olympic class gymnast.

That's going to depend on the individual campaign. In our campaign, and I'll bet many others, a "mere" 13- to 15- Acrobatics roll such as one gets with 18-28 DEX just isn't Olympic-class. My character was an Olympic medal winner with a 17- Acrobatics roll even before she got her superpowers (and she still only won bronze.) Now with her powers giving her a 43 DEX she's got a 23- Acrobatics roll including levels. She routinely makes her Acrobatics roll by 10 or 12. Mere -5 penalties to her Acrobatics roll won't even make her hesitate, but they will a 13- acrobat who just saw his chance of success suddenly drop to 26.9% instead of his normal 83.4% probability of success. It's a looong way down.

 

One must never lose sight of what human norms are. In a world where normal human primary characteristics are 8 or 10, abilities in the 20's and 30's are absolutely incredible. But if everyone has stats like that it becomes much more mundane. In our game, at least, we still like our heroes to garner "Wow! Did you see that!" reactions from the normals.

[Foxiekins]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Regarding the whole Ranged versus HTH thing... Y'all realize, don't ya, that if Level Lad has Missile Deflection, he can use his OCV defensively versus Ranged Attacks just as easily as he can use Blocks against HTH... As long as he continues to use it successfully, he can do multiple deflections each Phase with a cumulative penalty...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Regarding the whole Ranged versus HTH thing... Y'all realize' date=' don't ya, that if Level Lad has Missile Deflection, he can use his OCV defensively versus Ranged Attacks just as easily as he can use Blocks against HTH... As long as he continues to use it successfully, he can do multiple deflections each Phase with a cumulative penalty...[/quote']

 

While this is an option, I don't believe (and I'm interested in a reference if I'm wrong) that Missile Deflect and Martial Block automatically merge. As well, Block or Deflect, Level Lad must sacrifice his phase to use the maneuvers in question.

 

But IO do agree when LL decides to block, he can put all levels in OCV and be a much superior blocker.

[Foxiekins]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

They don't merge... (Not sure what you mean by that, actually...) But they BOTH let you use your OCV defensively... Which arguably makes them a "tight group" for the purpose of buying 3 point CSLs....

[BNakagawa]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

They don't merge... (Not sure what you mean by that' date=' actually...) But they BOTH let you use your OCV defensively... Which arguably makes them a "tight group" for the purpose of buying 3 point CSLs....[/quote']

 

They don't merge means in this case that the levels that can be used for a martial block can't necessarily be used for missile deflect because the example defined the tignt group as a martial art, which probably doesn't include missile deflect (which is a power).

 

If the tight group had been defined differently, then it is quite possible that they would apply to both the block and the missile deflect.

 

It's also possible for 5 point combat levels to be given limitations, so you could have a 5 point level with some limitation (OIF magic shield for example) that would apply to both block and missile deflect.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Bnakagawa sums it up. 3 point levels are either going to apply to Martial Arts or (Martial) Block & Missile Deflect, not both. "Merge" is a clumsy was of saying I don't think Missile Deflect uses Martial Block just because I buy Martial Block, although I'd probably let it for a 1 point "weapon Element" equivalent.

 

But I'm a big softie

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

In a campaign where martial artists have dexes of 23 and 11' date=' I suspect a Brick may have trouble hitting DCV 4 (remember, we changed L to a DEX 11!). It's probably easier to view them as having Dexes of 23 and 35 from a Supers perspective.[/quote']

 

That's not a problem. The brick probably has 18-23 Dex in such a campaign. My general comments still stand.

 

And "vast superiority" is your opinion, not a generaly accepted fact, as the discussion seems to show. Is DD all around better off? Yes. But LL is the clearly superior melee combatant.

 

"Vast superiority" means the same number of total CV, much higher initiative, much better breakfall and dive for cover rolls, and DCV that affects range attacks.

 

As well, our examples assume a Supoers campaign. Try the comparison where one character has a 29 DEX, and the other a 20 plus levels, in an NCM campaign. No question, skill levels are way more valuable once the cost of your stats doubles. Note JMOz' comment about paying 15 extra points to equate what he wants out of +10 DEX to skill levels. Doubkle the cost of the DEX, and the skill levels become clearly superior.

 

In a NCM campaign, CSL's will clearly become cost effective after Dex is bought up to 20. No argument here. Of course you'll have lots of Dex 20 characters in such a world.

 

Unless you're going to vary the cost of skill levels between NCM and no NCM campoaigns, their cost eficiency will always be superior in an NCM game.

 

That's an option. Make CSL's cheaper, but put a Normal Skill Limit. Beyond a certain number of skill levels (perhaps 4-6), double the price.

 

Of course their cost efficiency will be superior in a NCM world only after Dex is bought to 20.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

That's an option. Make CSL's cheaper' date=' but put a Normal Skill Limit. Beyond a certain number of skill levels (perhaps 4-6), double the price.[/quote']

 

Or take them down a grade if you don't have NCM. Thus, a 5 pt group in NCM becomes a 3 pt level in Supers. Thus, martial arts or HTH levels are 3 points in Supers, and 5 points in Fantasy.

 

This would work well for skill levels. Mechanically, it's hard to justify +1 in all PRE or INT skills costing 5 points when +5 PRE or INT gives the same benefit and costs the same amount. In a NCM campaign, 5 points for +1 or 10 points for +5 stat works much better.