Some holding phases questions...

[Dr. MID-Nite]

1) Can you hold phase 12? If so...is it recommended allow players to do so? This let's them act in phase 1...which I'm not sure is a good idea.

 

2) Along the same lines....would you allow a heaymaker to be set up in phase 12? This seems even more potentially abusive....as nobody goes in phase 1 to prevent it from landing.

 

Rob

[Supreme]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

To the best of my knowledge, actions cannot be held past the post-phase-12 cut-off, though I don't know why. 5th Ed. might have changed that. You can set up a haymaker on 12, I've done it many times. However, the target can abort their next phase on phase 1 to dodge, block, or activate a defensive power.

[austenandrews]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

I don't treat Segment 12 any different concerning Holding or anything else. That doesn't make any sense to me. (Though I sometimes allow that Holding past 12 negates your post-12 Recovery. I waffle on that one, however.)

 

-AA

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

Thanks for the quick replies. My group has just figuring out the advantages of holding actions. Now, they do it ALL the time! Any hints on how to keep this from getting out of hand?(For example, the entire group holds their actions every phase.) I've had scenarios where everyone holds just to make sure the opponents don't outwit them....with the result being that sometimes everyone just stands around. UGH

 

Rob

[Supreme]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

I don't treat Segment 12 any different concerning Holding or anything else. That doesn't make any sense to me. (Though I sometimes allow that Holding past 12 negates your post-12 Recovery. I waffle on that one, however.)

 

-AA

That's not a bad house rule. I just might adopt that...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

Thanks for the quick replies. My group has just figuring out the advantages of holding actions. Now' date=' they do it ALL the time! Any hints on how to keep this from getting out of hand?(For example, the entire group holds their actions every phase.) I've had scenarios where everyone holds just to make sure the opponents don't outwit them....with the result being that sometimes everyone just stands around. UGH[/quote']

 

- Let them. The villains then get to act. They'll win some of the DEX checks.

 

- While they are holding, the agents can set up for a better co-ordinated attack.

 

But my personal pet peeve - they can't "know" when a segment is about to end. If your 6 SPD character holds on 2, continues holding opn 3, then he holds right on into 4. He can't "wait until DEX 1, Segment 3, then act" so he won't lose his held phase.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

1. Let 'em hold as long as they want, but don't start counting phases until someone actually does something.

 

2. While they're holding let the bad guys continue their nefarious scheme. A few of the baddies can participate in the staring contest while the rest empty out the bank vault.

 

3. Have the bad guys put innocent bystanders in immeriate danger.

 

4. Buy Lightning Reflexes for the bad guys so they'll win the DEX roll-offs.

 

5. First rule of evil: When in doubt, take a hostage.

 

6. Have the press show up. "You call yourself a hero. Aren't you going to do anything?"

 

He who hesitates is lost.

 

BTW, IIRC, there's nothing that disallows holding a phase past segment 12, you don't lose the phase. And of course bad guys can do it too, since everyone starts on 12.

 

OK, I admit it. I only responded because I wanted to use some of the new smileys.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

Thanks for the quick replies. My group has just figuring out the advantages of holding actions. Now, they do it ALL the time! Any hints on how to keep this from getting out of hand?(For example, the entire group holds their actions every phase.) I've had scenarios where everyone holds just to make sure the opponents don't outwit them....with the result being that sometimes everyone just stands around. UGH

 

Rob

There's nothing in the rules about holding an action past segment 12, or starting actions taking longer than a turn on segment 12 either. The only thing special about segment 12 is that everybody has a Phase on that segment and that everybody gets a recovery immediately afterward. There is absolutely nothing limiting held actions.

 

As for what to do if all your players start holding actions in some attempt to gain an advantage, show them how it's a bad idea in some instances. Holdng your action, by definition, give another character a chance to act first. It they simply attempt to interupt their opponents actions once they know what they are (holding until "they" do something, then trying to act first) it still requires a DEX roll. The "theys" will go first sometimes.

 

Also, don't let them have god-like holding power. What I mean by this, is don't let them hold generacly, and then jump in with their full action whenever they like. Some players will try to hold their action, then jump in to take their action at the end of the segment right before their next phase. Not only is this abusing the system, it's actually against the rules. Characters can only hold 'till a DEX latter in the segment, or until something specific hapens (X takes a turn, someone comes around the corner, by buddy hits X, etc.). Not that DEX 0 in Segment 4 isn't something that happens, and a character can't hold to that unless he has a Phase in segment 4 to hold.

[ChuckB]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

Thanks for the quick replies. My group has just figuring out the advantages of holding actions. Now, they do it ALL the time! Any hints on how to keep this from getting out of hand?(For example, the entire group holds their actions every phase.) I've had scenarios where everyone holds just to make sure the opponents don't outwit them....with the result being that sometimes everyone just stands around. UGH

 

Rob

 

For awhile, I had a house rule that only allowed anyone to save a half-phase.

 

Makes certain maneuvers work a little differently, however.

 

Some other GMs use a "declaration" rule , where you define a set of circumstances in which you can use your held action.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

Thanks for the quick replies. My group has just figuring out the advantages of holding actions. Now, they do it ALL the time! Any hints on how to keep this from getting out of hand?(For example, the entire group holds their actions every phase.) I've had scenarios where everyone holds just to make sure the opponents don't outwit them....with the result being that sometimes everyone just stands around. UGH

 

Rob

 

Learn the fun of villains with Indirect IPE attacks ... The hero's wait .. the villain smiles but doesn't move .. the heros get smacked from somewhere REALLY HARD.

 

Now they have to take out villains before they are attacked or all that holding will be for naught... since presumably they are waiting for the villain to "act" and since he hasn't actually moved anywhere they don't know he just launched an orbital laser strike on them.

[austenandrews]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

Characters can only hold 'till a DEX latter in the segment' date=' or until something specific hapens (X takes a turn, someone comes around the corner, by buddy hits X, etc.). Not that DEX 0 in Segment 4 isn't something that happens, and a character can't hold to that unless he has a Phase in segment 4 to hold.[/quote']

 

Really, that's in the rules? That's whack. I do agree a "godlike Hold" is bad, but the above is equally bad.

 

-AA

[tesuji]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

The following is from a house rule set i had planned for a campaign that never came off...

 

1. Instead of a dex roll, simultaneous actions, specifically from held action interrupts for instance, will be made by opposing TACTICS skill rolls. (Treat tactics as an everyman skill)

 

2. For the held action guy, there will be modifiers. If he declared an "IF...then" when he started holding his action, he gets a +3 to the roll off. Its "easy" since he was prepared for both the event and the action. If he declared an "if" or a "then" but not both, its a normal roll. If neither was prepared and he was just waiting for anything to respond to in any way, its a difficult roll made at -3.

 

basically, the more things you are trying to watch and trying to be prepared to do... maybe i will respond to someone coming in the door or maybe i will respond is Sheba goes for the phone or maybe..." the less likely you are to get it done quickly enough to interrupt someone who has started doing what they have already decided to do.

 

Now, someone with a good sense of tactics who wants to get good at this can train (buy up the tactics skill) and get better at this. (As opposed to the ever-present "mo' dex is gud" thang.)

 

OF course, by turning this into a skill roll and thus bringing in the circumstantial modifiers for difficulty, a wide range of possibilities opens up.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

Really, that's in the rules? That's whack. I do agree a "godlike Hold" is bad, but the above is equally bad.

 

-AA

How is it bad? It simulates the fact that holding an action makes the character reactionary. He can either delay for half a second (latter in the Segment) or wait for someone else to do something. If he has to wait long enough that his next Phase comes up, then he can act or continue to wait.

[austenandrews]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

If I'm reading you correctly, a character can't delay past the current segment unless he's specifically waiting for something ..? If that's the case, reality is taking a serious hit. In the real world I can stand around doing nothing as long as I want, not just in one-second increments. Yes, I know the game puts such constraints on many actions. But there's no need to add Delay to the list. It doesn't have to be there. In fact I regard it specifically as a way to alleviate the inherent jerkiness of the Speed Chart.

 

I might get behind, say, losing half your Phase if you Delay past the current segment. But not the whole ball of wax. That's way overkill.

 

-AA

[Descant]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

I agree with Raven on the reactionary status of somebody holding. The old term, "Well, what are you waiting for?" implies a "what" needs to occur. There's just no realtime equivalent for holding until just before somebody else's phase do you can avoid the DEX-off... you are psychic enough to win the DEX roll, you delare you hold until they do something and then react, or you're stalling. If a real person wants to win a gunfight draw, they can't just magically anticipate when the other guy is gonna move. That's skills, or something else buyable.

I don't treat Segment 12 any different concerning Holding or anything else. That doesn't make any sense to me. (Though I sometimes allow that Holding past 12 negates your post-12 Recovery. I waffle on that one, however.)

Regarding this one... Raven, what do you rule on this? I can't recall how the games we do run. I find this a fair call, personally, but I'd like to know what we've been going on. (I've never thought to hold a 12 before... hmmmm)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

If I'm reading you correctly' date=' a character can't delay past the current segment unless he's specifically waiting for something ..? If that's the case, reality is taking a serious hit. In the real world I can stand around doing nothing as long as I want, not just in one-second increments. Yes, I know the game puts such constraints on many actions. But there's no need to add Delay to the list. It doesn't have to be there. In fact I regard it specifically as a way to [i']alleviate[/i] the inherent jerkiness of the Speed Chart.

 

I might get behind, say, losing half your Phase if you Delay past the current segment. But not the whole ball of wax. That's way overkill.

 

-AA

Like all other mechanical aspects of the game, it's a balance issue. I will note that I don't approve of holding to a lower DEX value, but I still allow it. If you want a rational for it, other than "because it's fair this way" try this:

 

Your Phase comes up and you may act. You can hesitate for a moment, or you can wait for something. Why can't you hesitate past the current Segment? Because hesitating that long is really waiting, and if you aren't waiting for anything, all you end up doing is standing there. If you normally act on Segment 3 on DEX 20, you can delay your Phase to DEX 10 to see what everybody else is doing. If someone else goes on DEX 14 and doesn't something you don't like, tough, you let him go. If you still aren't ready to go on DEX 10, you can either start waiting for somethng or lose your action. Of course, if you wanted to interupt that DEX 14 guy, you could always have just said so.

 

Descant, Recovers on Post-12 are automatic and only being very unconscious or being unable to breathe will stop them from happening (unless you are an agent/thug in which case you don't tend to get them anyways). It doesn't matter what you do, whether or not you hold, act or perform a really long action.

[pinecone]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

I'm on record as considering the Holding phases equals combat telepathy is very bad school of thought....basicly you've got to put some thought into haw you want to do this, then set limits and enforce them.....Hero combat can be slow....doing the hold duel every phase makes it Glacial. I basicly say "Hey you hold to do something" so when a hero says "I hold" I ask what for....if they don't know they are dithering around and need to roll to jump in brfore thier next action. I also make it clear that if I descibe an action it has happened and its too late to interupt. So if I say the agent runs over and grabs the vial, "Inaction man, the delay master" can only jump in to act on the agent having done what is descibed...if he wishes to "intercept anyone who trys for the vial" That is holding to do some thing,and I stop the action as each person makes a run on the dingus...."The agent is heading towards the vial, will you interupt?" hpefully its just a phase and they will get better...

[austenandrews]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

There's just no realtime equivalent for holding until just before somebody else's phase do you can avoid the DEX-off... you are psychic enough to win the DEX roll' date=' you delare you hold until they do something and then react, or you're stalling. If a real person wants to win a gunfight draw, they can't just magically anticipate when the other guy is gonna move. That's skills, or something else buyable.[/quote']

 

In my book the less realistic option is one in which you are forced to act in a certain order, at a certain time, no matter what. I agree that specifically acting "just before somebody else" (like a gunfight at high noon) calls for a DEX or skill roll, but that's a situation where both people act pretty much at the same time.

 

That's hardly the only case, though. In the real world people exploit the rhythms of action all the time. Watch any basketball game and you'll see one player drive with the ball toward the basket. His teammates wait to see what the defenders do and act accordingly. Many times they're executing specific plays ("Delay until ...") but often they're simply gauging what happens in front of them. They may catch a pass, position for a rebound, block out a defender, move down the court to cover an opponent breaking away, or any number of other options. They may just keep waiting if no good opportunities arise. In game terms, they're plain ol' Delaying.

 

It's possible for players to exploit the mechanic, of course, by Delaying until the end of Segment 5 if they know their opponent goes on Segment 6. In some cases I don't think that's unbalancing, like a speedy superhero taking down a gang of thugs. In other cases it can get abusive, though. I'm not sure how to address it if that becomes a problem in a game. I am sure that I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater and eliminate the perfectly natural option of not acting yet.

 

-AA

[Dust Raven]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

That's hardly the only case' date=' though. In the real world people exploit the rhythms of action all the time. Watch any basketball game and you'll see one player drive with the ball toward the basket. His teammates wait to see what the defenders do and act accordingly. Many times they're executing specific plays ("Delay until ...") but often they're simply gauging what happens in front of them. They may catch a pass, position for a rebound, block out a defender, move down the court to cover an opponent breaking away, or any number of other options. They may just [i']keep[/i] waiting if no good opportunities arise. In game terms, they're plain ol' Delaying.

-AA

This is a great example of Holding for a specific action to occur. Your on defense and are blocking an opposing team member from catching a pass. You are holding your action until someone passes him the ball. If he suddenly runs up court while you're waiting, tough, he got up there (and this happens all the time). You might be a few steps behind him (you actual Phase comes up and you move), but now you want to try to get the ball from him, or block his pass. These are specific things to hold for. None of the players are just kickin back and waiting for no good reason.

[austenandrews]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

Why can't you hesitate past the current Segment? Because hesitating that long is really waiting' date=' and if you aren't waiting for anything, all you end up doing is standing there.[/quote']

 

This is the crux of our disagreement. You think it's unbalanced & unrealistic one way and I think it's unbalanced & unrealistic the other way. Sounds like we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Descant, Recovers on Post-12 are automatic and only being very unconscious or being unable to breathe will stop them from happening (unless you are an agent/thug in which case you don't tend to get them anyways). It doesn't matter what you do, whether or not you hold, act or perform a really long action.

 

That's ultimately why I don't use this option very much. For me it mainly matters if standoffs start to last for several Turns. The nature of Hero mechanics is that you can wind up recovering most of your STUN with a couple of Post-12's. That tends to put combat back to square one, which doesn't fit most genres. Luckily players tend to treasure their Phases and rarely do this, but I keep that rule in my pocket in case things get out of hand.

 

-AA

[austenandrews]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

This is a great example of Holding for a specific action to occur. Your on defense and are blocking an opposing team member from catching a pass. You are holding your action until someone passes him the ball. If he suddenly runs up court while you're waiting' date=' tough, he got up there (and this happens all the time). You might be a few steps behind him (you actual Phase comes up and you move), but now you want to try to get the ball from him, or block his pass. These are specific things to hold for. None of the players are just kickin back and waiting for no good reason.[/quote']

 

You obviously aren't a Suns fan.

 

I'd say you're right in regards to most players. In a Hero game I wouldn't have the majority of players Delay that way. PCs and significant NPCs aren't rank-and-file, though. They're the Magic Johnsons, Larry Birds and Michael Jordans, those guys who could and did watch everything and react accordingly.

 

Anyway.

 

-AA

[Descant]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

This is a great example of Holding for a specific action to occur. Your on defense and are blocking an opposing team member from catching a pass. You are holding your action until someone passes him the ball. If he suddenly runs up court while you're waiting' date=' tough, he got up there (and this happens all the time). You might be a few steps behind him (you actual Phase comes up and you move), but now you want to try to get the ball from him, or block his pass. These are specific things to hold for. None of the players are just kickin back and waiting for no good reason.[/quote']

I was actually trying to logic out the points made here for myself, but was weak on the mechanics. There is a distinct possibility that somebody could be holding for one thing, but then see something else happen and want to react. I understand this. But if a person is waiting, they are usually on alert for something to happen. Watching for this will make it harder to react to surprises. Just having a held action should not negate the element of surprise. Very few people will loiter in the middle of combat just watching for "stuff" to jump out of nowhere. Then again, if that *is* what you are doing, that's a held half-phase following an Observation.

 

If you are holding an action for a vaguer class of things (waiting until somebody moves/waiting until he comes into my line of sight/waiting until I hear the signal) and a specific action is not obvious, to the best of my knowledge, you CAN declare you're holding until that happens, then re-assess the situation and act.

 

Also, don't forget the ability to Abort a held action at any time you like to react to a threat in combat as well. And if you want to do the VIPER thing and hold a phase until whenever to stagger an attack or take erratic turns, maybe your GM will allow you to have a specific Reputation for doing so, so that people can begin to recognise your tactics if they face you again. (Like VIPER, or like Distinctive styles of Martial Arts).

[pinecone]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

Well I see Magic, Larry etc as being built on more points...you know being the heros and all so they just have much higher speeds and Dexes...YMMV

[austenandrews]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

Well I see Magic' date=' Larry etc as being built on more points...you know being the heros and all so they just have much higher speeds and Dexes...YMMV[/quote']

Which argues for Delaying past the current Segment. Otherwise SPD 3 Magic Johnson can't react to the SPD 2 players around him, except on Segment 12, because he can only Delay until the end of Segment 4 & Segment 8, while his SPD 2 teammates and opponents go on Segment 6. So Magic would be on his own until the 12th, just because of game mechanics.

 

-AA

[Dust Raven]

Re: Some holding phases questions...

 

Which argues for Delaying past the current Segment. Otherwise SPD 3 Magic Johnson can't react to the SPD 2 players around him, except on Segment 12, because he can only Delay until the end of Segment 4 & Segment 8, while his SPD 2 teammates and opponents go on Segment 6. So Magic would be on his own until the 12th, just because of game mechanics.

 

-AA

Not true, because he can hold until a specific player or group of players acts, as opposed to holding until a later DEX in the same Segment.

 

Descant brings up an interesting point, however. In V:COTS under Viper Tactics, it states that agenst will stagger the Phases so that they don't all act on the same Segments. Some will hold to a later Segment so that their opponents cannot as easily react to their attacks. Technically, this violates the rules for Holding an Action. I suppose you could allow someone to act on their own DEX in a later Segment as opposed to waiting for a specific event to take place or holding until a lower DEX on the current Segment.