drnuncheon Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Didn't see this in either the errata or the FAQs, so here goes...someone brought this up on another board. Why are extra limbs with lower stats than the character has generally figured as limitations on the characteristcs and not on the Extra Limbs power? It would seem to me that one or more extra limbs, no matter how weak or clumsy, is always an advantage over not having them (thus being worth at least 1 point), and yet should of course never cost more than 5 points. Unfortunately, with the current way of buying Extra Limbs, we don't seem to have that. Example: Dextrous Guy has a DEX of 30 (costing him 60 points). His friend Monkeyman has Extra Limbs (prehensile feet) and a DEX of 30 - unfortunately, Monkeyman's feet aren't nearly as dextrous as his hands, having only a DEX of 10. By the current rules, Monkeyman would get a -1/2 limitation on his Dex, 'not for extra limbs', bringing the cost down to 40 points - and yet he isn't any more limited than Dextrous Guy! Why does he save 15 points by buying Extra Limbs? Wouldn't it make more sense to put a (say) -1/2 limit on Extra Limbs, 'limited DEX'? Can anyone shed some light on the subject? J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics Since this is a "design philosophy" question and not a rules question, I've moved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnuncheon Posted April 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics Whups, my bad. I actually realized after I'd posted that that was the forums specifically for rules Q&A - I haven't been here for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics Any action that Monkeyman might declare that involves use of his feet ("While dangling from a limb by my hands I'm going to grab the foe with my feet") would take place at the DEX 10 action in the order, and he would only have OCV 3 while attacking with said feet. But I do tend to think that such a limitation shouldn't be taken on the characteristics. I think the "Limited manipulation -1/4" type of disad on the limb would be more appropriate. In order to justify the cost savings on the characteristic you have to spend a lot of time judging whether an action involves the feet enough to drop the DEX. That's enough of a pain to me to veto it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnuncheon Posted April 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics Any action that Monkeyman might declare that involves use of his feet ("While dangling from a limb by my hands I'm going to grab the foe with my feet") would take place at the DEX 10 action in the order' date=' and he would only have OCV 3 while attacking with said feet.[/quote'] Right, but Dextrous Guy can't do it at all - so it's gotta be worth at least 1 point, right? But I do tend to think that such a limitation shouldn't be taken on the characteristics. I think the "Limited manipulation -1/4" type of disad on the limb would be more appropriate. I agree, but after referring to my copy of FRED, limitation on the characteristics is the official way to handle it. I was wondering if there was something I was missing - and if not, should there be some errata? J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics I am going to agree with Blue here. The limitation should go on the Extra limbs power. The problem is HERO makes limbs a little too cheap. Perhaps changing Extra Limbs to a cost more in line with Clinging. Where you get a say STR 10 DEX 10 limbs and have to up the STR or DEX. The Char cost would be less say 2 STR for 3 points and 2 DEX for 5 Points. Constructed with the Restainable limitation inherent in the build. Doc Ock one offs are going to pop outta woodwork for months now. Hawksmoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Anomaly Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics Doc Ock one offs are going to pop outta woodwork for months now. Not necessarily. Remember, in order to do the stuff with Extra Limbs that Doc Ock does with his, you're also going to need things like: - Stretching - Indirect - Armor Piercing on STR - Extra Running - Clinging etc. etc. Just having the Extra Limbs doesn't let you do something that's already covered by another Power. Sure, you may have tentacles that can extend 100 feet, but unless you've also bought Stretching, your control is obviously so poor that you can't do anything meaningful with them other than where you can see them precisely...say, at normal arm's length... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics Right Doc I never meant to imply otherwise. I was however refering to the Characteristics of "possessing" multiple limbs as being a potential *kewlpowerz" problem. Hawksmoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics I'm thinking this is just an oversite of the game design. If your have different Characteristics for different limbs, it doesn't really matter if they are "extra" limbs or not, as the same mechanic applies to your normal limbs. Buying STR "arms only" is no different than buying STR "tail only". The Limitation goes on the STR. Of course, like any Limitation involving Characteristcs, this will lead to abuse and unbalanced characters unless looked and properly by the GM. If a character buys part of a Characteristic that doesn't apply to certain limbs, the GM should work up some suitable penalties for make up for the points saved (possibly looking at what an equal number of point in Physical Limitation). Blue's take on drnuncheon's DEX example is a perfect example of what can be done to maintain balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics Remember, a limitation on a characteristic that doesn't also affect the figureds means that you don't get the figured characteristics. This goes a long way toward balancing that construct. That Str or Dex that you're buying "not with extra limb" means that you're also not getting PD, Spd, Rec, or Stun. This is a hefty price to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics There was a big to-do on this very issue about a year ago. My advice to you is to change it for your campaigns. Make it a Limitation on the Extra Limbs. You owe the Oracle a Coke and a foot rub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnuncheon Posted April 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics Remember' date=' a limitation on a characteristic that doesn't also affect the figureds means that you don't get the figured characteristics. This goes a long way toward balancing that construct.[/quote'] Well, that's the other half of it. Let's take Strong Guy and The Paramecium (instead of Dextrous Guy and Monkeyman). Both Strong Guy and Paramecium have STR 50, but Paramecium has thousands of extra limbs (cilia) that only have STR 10. Strong Guy pays 40 points. Paramecium should pay somewhere between 40 and 45 points, one would think, because he could have thousands of full-strength cilia for 45 points, and thousands of weaker cilia are obviously worth less. Unfortunately, he winds up paying...let's see. 27 for strength, 5 for extra limbs, plus 6 to get his PD up to equal Strong Guy's, plus 6 more to get his STUN back up there, plus 12 for REC...56 points? More than buying the full strength extra limbs? Basically, it's wacky, and the solution is simple (the limitation goes on the Extra Limb) - just something I hope Steve thinks about for the errata or future printings or future editions. (Especially since there's people out there using it as an example of how flawed HERO is.) J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnuncheon Posted April 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics Another thought that occurred to me: applying the limitation to the characteristics seems to go against one of the central points of HERO philosophy, which is to say "A Limitation that does not limit is not worth any points." Since the character with a weak Extra Limb can do everything that a character with no Extra Limb can do (he can lift the same amount, strike with any of his standard limbs for the same amount, etc), it shouldn't be a limitation on Strength. Since the character with a weak Extra Limb can't do everything that a character with the "full" Extra Limb can do, it should be a limitation on Extra Limb. This also points out nicely why a stronger Extra Limb isn't handled as an advantage on the Extra Limb power - there is a limitation on the stat there, the stat is only usable with the extra limb. I was kind of hoping that Steve would weigh in at some point and let us know why he wrote the rules to specifically say that the limitation goes on the Characteristics, not on the Extra Limbs power. Am I missing anything? J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics I think the rule is geared towards limbs in general, rather than involving Extra ones. If it's just the Extra Limbs though, it's either not a Limitation at all or it's on the Extra Limbs Power. Most likely it could be a Physical Limitation (such as you would use for a T-Rex's arms, which aren't bought but are just as limited). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics drnuncheon, I consider the text you cite in FREd to be a brain fart on Steve's part. It seems so totally obvious that the limitation should be on the Extra Limbs, rather than the STR (not to mention a very simple solution). Don't hold your breath waiting for Steve to justify or explain the rule. He never does that. I understand he really doesn't have time to explain or justify all his design decisions. Just remember that your own common sense and logic can trump any illogical rule. FREd is not the Bible, and Steve is not infallible. (I've been waiting for an explanation of the "No teperature level 0 exists" line for a long time. I don't think I'll ever get it, so I just cross it out.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesuji Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics from the rules as written perspective, it doesn't work out right. the same type thing can be done with bases and partial coverage. basic math error is applying a lim on a big thing that costs lots because it cannot be used on a small inexpensive thing... in both the extra limbs and the partial coverage, the house rule that corrects the math model is: when two things dont work together, limit the smaller thing. all that strength doesn't work with your extra limb? limit the extra limb... the small added thing.... and not the strength and dex. All that wall body and def for the walls and life support dont work for all of your base? limit the extra size they dont apply to, not all those powers. Thats what i tried to get across last time, but, no such luck. as a wise man once said... "if you don't like our rules, don't use them." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics Another thought that occurred to me: Since the character with a weak Extra Limb can't do everything that a character with the "full" Extra Limb can do, it should be a limitation on Extra Limb. This also points out nicely why a stronger Extra Limb isn't handled as an advantage on the Extra Limb power - there is a limitation on the stat there, the stat is only usable with the extra limb. The last part is interesting.... +50 STR only usable for Extra Limbs (-1/2) No Fiqured Char (-1/2) vs. +50 STR not usable for Extra Limbs (-1/4) No Fiqured Char (-1/2) I'll have to think on that. I suppose it would only be allowable if the Extra limbs were so integral to the concept that use of the Extra Limbs were the *default* of the PC. [Doc Ock] Note I lower the *not* limitation because you can and often would use your regular super strong limbs and thus it is not worth a larger limitation...if allowable at all. Still going to have to think this over. Hawksmoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics There was a big to-do on this very issue about a year ago. A casual search of the forums is not finding this for me. Can anyone point me to it? Did Steve weigh in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics A casual search of the forums is not finding this for me. Can anyone point me to it? Did Steve weigh in? Steve did in fact weigh in on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnuncheon Posted April 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics Considering that neither Buzz nor I appear to be able to find it with the 'Search' feature, perhaps a link is in order? J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesuji Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Re: Extra Limbs and Characteristics Steve's response in QnA (i dont recall if there was a followup later...) http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/HeroSystem5thEdQuestions/001812.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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