Memory And Flash?

[Sociotard]

1) Flash is a Sense-Affecting Power.

2) Clairsentience is a Sensory Power.

3) Eiditic Memory is built as a form of Clairsentience.

 

Does this mean Memory can be thought of as a sense in general? Can I flash it? What happens if it is flashed?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

1) Flash is a Sense-Affecting Power.

2) Clairsentience is a Sensory Power.

3) Eiditic Memory is built as a form of Clairsentience.

 

Does this mean Memory can be thought of as a sense in general? Can I flash it? What happens if it is flashed?

Makes sense to me. I'd allow it with a good concept. I figure a character would be unable to remember anything during the duration of the Flash effect.

[Sociotard]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

My concept was a memory supressing drug. Throw in a trigger (as soon as the last injection wears off) and this'd be a fun toy for a secret orginization.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

My concept was a memory supressing drug. Throw in a trigger (as soon as the last injection wears off) and this'd be a fun toy for a secret orginization.

Works for me. You'd have to have some limitation on the duration and perhaps allow an INT or EGO roll to overcome the effects. (After all, even being Flashed visually doesn't totally eliminate the ability to fight.) If it lasts a really long time it might be better to construct it as a Transformation or some type of EGO-based Entangle.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

I can see this being used to obscure short conversations.

 

Flash Mental Group: Memory.

 

Use that just before you talk to someone, during the Flash Period they can't remember things that are going on. You leave before the flash wears off and they don't remember having the conversation.

 

Neat.

[GamePhil]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

This came up a while back during a conversation about making some of the rules slightly more consistent. The basic point was that you could replace the Clairsentience for Eidetic Memory with Analyze Memory, if Memory was considered something that you naturally "sensed". This would allow for memory flashes, and would make Eidetic Memory 5 points without having to artificially halve the cost.

 

However, the Clairsentience is not for seeing your memory, it's for seeing the past, so while you could Flash Eidetic Memory, technically you wouldn't be able to Flash normal memory, because it isn't really a Sense. Still, if you can Flash the one, surely you can Flash the other...

 

That's enough over-analysis for me for one day. Or at least one thread.

[Sociotard]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

I think we all just found out why GamePhil chose his avatar.

[GamePhil]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

I think we all just found out why GamePhil chose his avatar.

 

Possibly. On the other hand...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

I don't think of Memory as a Sense of any kind. It doesn't really fit the definition in my opinion. At that point...you might as well start Flashing Powers to keep you from using them...

 

I also can't think of what the affect would be. Would the become total amnesiacs for the duration, instantly forget everything that occured during the Flash immediately after the duration, or something else entirely?

 

And what would Memories sense anyway?

[Gary]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

I prefer Darkness to memory. People see me and interact with me, but they forget me as soon as I leave their presence.

[GamePhil]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

I don't think of Memory as a Sense of any kind. It doesn't really fit the definition in my opinion. At that point...you might as well start Flashing Powers to keep you from using them...

 

Well, first off, Memories don't sense anything, but you can sense your own Memories.

 

Second off, while in general I wouldn't recommend Flashing Memory, any more than I would Flash Mathematical Ability because Lightning Calculator is built as a Sense, it is not an unreasonable thing to extrapolate from the various Talents. Even if used this way, it doesn't mean that the ability to access your memories is literally a sense, just that it is a Sense in game mechanical terms, which is not the same thing.

[zornwil]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

My concept was a memory supressing drug. Throw in a trigger (as soon as the last injection wears off) and this'd be a fun toy for a secret orginization.

Great idea! I will steal that...makes for good mental protection but with some timing limitations and various plot possibilities. Thanks very much!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

Well' date=' first off, Memories don't sense anything, but you can sense your own Memories. [/quote']

I don't think of it like that. What to you 'sense' you memories with? I have memories. I know my memories. I don't sense them any more than I can sense what I have in my desk drawer. It's there. I have it all. I might not be thinking about it or remember everything at once, but I can always rummage around until I find what I'm looking for (something might slip my mind, but I can think about it until I recall it).

[zornwil]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

I don't think of it like that. What to you 'sense' you memories with? I have memories. I know my memories. I don't sense them any more than I can sense what I have in my desk drawer. It's there. I have it all. I might not be thinking about it or remember everything at once' date=' but I can always rummage around until I find what I'm looking for (something might slip my mind, but I can think about it until I recall it).[/quote']

But Ithink you're being too literal, we're talking HERO "senses" and given the explanation and uses, I think there are other such "nonsense senses". I'd have to double-check online and the book and am going to bed shortly though...too tired to check for now, sorry.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

I think its worthwhile to treat memory as a sense, if only so that not every little memory altering power needs a Major Transform ObsceneD6.

[Sociotard]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

I prefer Darkness to memory. People see me and interact with me' date=' but they forget me as soon as I leave their presence. [/quote']

Ah, but this is not Darkness. This is invisibility.

Great idea! I will steal that...makes for good mental protection but with some timing limitations and various plot possibilities. Thanks very much!

Do you want to write it up for the USPD or should I?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

But Ithink you're being too literal' date=' we're talking HERO "senses" and given the explanation and uses, I think there are other such "nonsense senses". I'd have to double-check online and the book and am going to bed shortly though...too tired to check for now, sorry.[/quote']

I'm not aware of any "nonsense senses" in Hero. I don't count Talents such as Lightning Calculator and Speed Reading as senses in and of themselves, and I don't believe the rules indend us to.

 

Even when you get into the mechanics of the system, the SFX of memory doesn't fit the mechanics for a Sense. It's more like the mechanics for your clothing in superheroic campaign (you just have them, enjoy...oh wait, you want special memories? buy a Skill).

 

If you start calling everything a Sense then Flash becomes the most powerful Power in the game.

[zornwil]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

But Ithink you're being too literal' date=' we're talking HERO "senses" and given the explanation and uses, I think there are other such "nonsense senses". I'd have to double-check online and the book and am going to bed shortly though...too tired to check for now, sorry.[/quote']

Nothing entirely specific, however, I believe the rules fully justify defining Memory as a sort of sense for Flash or Darkness purposes. Witness the liberal nature of "unusual" senses on pp 228-229 and more importantly the discussion of how since Voice can be silenced by Darkness which targets Hearing implies an attitude which supports Memory as a limited sense. So nothing solid, but I think it's entirely reasonable to treat Memory as a non-targetting Sense. There is a question as to whether you call this part of the Mental Sense Group or Unusual. But I don't think you'd want things that normally affect Mental to automatically affect Memory.

[GamePhil]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

Even when you get into the mechanics of the system, the SFX of memory doesn't fit the mechanics for a Sense.

 

In what way? It is a definable quantity within the game world, and therefore seems like something that could be Sensed, though not a Sense itself.

 

Not that I'd let someone get away with using Senses to read someone else's memories this way (that's Telepathy). I also wouldn't generally allow this Unusual Sense to be affected by Sense Affecting Powers under most circumstances (again, almost all such instances of such a thing are a Mental Power or a Transform). But I might very well allow the Sense to be improved, and might someday be given a character conception that one of the above constructs is useful for. Therefore, I see no particular reason to discard this completely.

 

However, like a lot of things, while I can see the use, I'd really recommend looking at other Powers and seeing if they do the job. If someone came to me with a Memory Flash, I'd almost certainly Rule 6 it unless there were compelling reasons that it was the "more valid" construct.

[zornwil]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

In what way? It is a definable quantity within the game world, and therefore seems like something that could be Sensed, though not a Sense itself.

 

Not that I'd let someone get away with using Senses to read someone else's memories this way (that's Telepathy). I also wouldn't generally allow this Unusual Sense to be affected by Sense Affecting Powers under most circumstances (again, almost all such instances of such a thing are a Mental Power or a Transform). But I might very well allow the Sense to be improved, and might someday be given a character conception that one of the above constructs is useful for. Therefore, I see no particular reason to discard this completely.

 

However, like a lot of things, while I can see the use, I'd really recommend looking at other Powers and seeing if they do the job. If someone came to me with a Memory Flash, I'd almost certainly Rule 6 it unless there were compelling reasons that it was the "more valid" construct.

Wait - didn't I just settle this?

 

(for the humor impaired, that was a joke)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

Nothing entirely specific' date=' however, I believe the rules fully justify defining Memory as a sort of sense for Flash or Darkness purposes. Witness the liberal nature of "unusual" senses on pp 228-229 and more importantly the discussion of how since Voice can be silenced by Darkness which targets Hearing implies an attitude which supports Memory as a limited sense. So nothing solid, but I think it's entirely reasonable to treat Memory as a non-targetting Sense. There is a question as to whether you call this part of the Mental Sense Group or Unusual. But I don't think you'd want things that normally affect Mental to [b']automatically[/b] affect Memory.

Actually, the rules specifically state exactly what senses chacters possess. In order to define memory as a sense, you have to modify what senses characters possess. Standard rules, through omission, state that memory is not a sense.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

In what way? It is a definable quantity within the game world' date=' and therefore seems like something that could be Sensed, though not a Sense itself.[/quote']

Its definable by your INT Characteristic and your various Skills (and perhaps Talents and Powers). Memory is defined by nothing more that what you know and can remember. If you need to remember something, you don't make a PER Roll to detect the memory, you make an INT Roll. If you have learned a particular knowledge about something or someone, you don't make PER Rolls to recall that knowledge, you make your appropriate KS Roll.

 

If you want to prevent someone from remembering something for a moment, you can use Mind Control. If you want to affect several people in an area, you make it AE. If you want to insert false memories you use Mental Illusions or a Mental Transform.

 

With senses, it's easy to figure out what happens when you are affected by Darkness or a Flash. It's not even open to discussion. But one of the original questions that started this thread is "what happens?" If you don't know, it's probably not a sense you are working with. Every sense senses something, allows the character to perceive and be aware of something. Memory isn't like that. You have memories. You don't perceive them.

[zornwil]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

Actually' date=' the rules specifically state exactly what senses chacters possess. In order to define memory as a sense, you have to modify what senses characters possess. Standard rules, through omission, state that memory is not a sense.[/quote']

But it gives guidelines for defining things as Senses. I didn't say it did, but the point is that I believe one could reasonably.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

But it gives guidelines for defining things as Senses. I didn't say it did' date=' but the point is that I believe one could reasonably.[/quote']

One could "reasonably" say a lot of things about the rules, especially Senses. But just because you can say it doesn't make it a good idea.

 

I could reasonably declare Find Weakness a Sense because it detects areas of weakness in a target's DEF that can be exploited. Except that it doesn't work like a Sense or is even used like a Sense. Same thing with memory. Memory doesn't act like a Sense and isn't used like a Sense. Depending your definition, it might have some sense-like properties, but that doesn't make it a sense.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Memory And Flash?

 

With senses' date=' it's easy to figure out what happens when you are affected by Darkness or a Flash. It's not even open to discussion. But one of the original questions that started this thread is "what happens?" If you don't know, it's probably not a sense you are working with.[/quote']

 

What happens if you Flash someone's vestibular sense, the sense that tells us where "up" and "down" are and our physical relationship to those directions? Or their kinesthetic sense, the sense that tells us where our hands and feet are at any given moment?

 

These are considered senses by most neurologists, but I bet determining the game effects of Flashing them would take at least as much discussion as determining the effect of a Flash on memory.