He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

[Doug McCrae]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

Even in a "350" campaign' date=' GMs need to use their imaginations and see these characters without associated point totals, and certainly need to think about allowing experienced players to step farther afield point-wise than normally I think GMs are comfortable with. a 650-point character in a 350-point campaign does not necessarily spell doom for party balance, just like a cosmic VPP with an 80-point pool doesn't necessarily turn a character into ambulatory Limburgher. Even in the best-statted-out system ever, you have to look past the points.[/quote']I totally agree. So why not take the next step and dispense with point totals altogether?

[Metaphysician]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

Batman's utility belt could be purchased cheaper as a multipower- my martial artist-detective has a 20-slot multipower' date=' each slot with 40 active points maximum, for a real cost of 47 points. You don't get too much more cost-effective than that. A VPP with the same effectiveness was something like 67 points I think, but the last revision he went through was over six months ago.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but Batman pulls out new stuff from the belt too often to really cover with even a 20 slot multipower. Easier to just eat the point difference and make it the VPP.

[Trebuchet]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

Ah yes. Even in a "350" campaign' date=' GMs need to use their imaginations and see these characters without associated point totals, and certainly need to think about allowing experienced players to step farther afield point-wise than normally I think GMs are comfortable with. a 650-point character in a 350-point campaign does not necessarily spell doom for party balance, just like a cosmic VPP with an 80-point pool doesn't necessarily turn a character into ambulatory Limburgher. Even in the best-statted-out system ever, you have to look past the points.[/quote']Absolutely true. Mentor runs a mentalist character, Prodigy, in our campaign with a 95 point "mental powers" VPP. At no time has he ever been overly effective compared to the other PCs in our group. He does things we can't do, we do things he can't do. Despite the fact that "on paper" he should be able to beat us all, he doesn't outshine the other characters because of Mentor's solid idea of what Prodigy can and cannot do. Would I let just any player run Prodigy or a similar PC? No, of course not. But I'd allow any player in our group to run him because I trust the players, not just the numbers.

[zornwil]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

You know' date=' maybe that's why I find them boring. It didn't crystallize for me until I just read what you wrote. I can't stand any of those guys, and the Green Lanterns either. No wonder I'm biased against the heavy hitters of various superheroic worlds- they don't as a rule have the flexibility that comes from having to solve problems without their fists.[/quote']

Aw. come on you guys - Silver Surfer has Oratory and Space-Surfing. Both are pretty cool! And actually didn't he use his Oratory against Galactus or somebody convincingly? Also, isn't SS good at being deceptive and persuasive?

 

Thor and Superman? Yeah, ho-hum. Although Thor's a good doctor.

[assault]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

Thor and Superman? Yeah' date=' ho-hum. Although Thor's a good doctor.[/quote']

 

Clark Kent is a good investigative journalist.

 

This was established decades ago, when the Earth-2 Superman temporarily lost his powers and forgot he had ever had them. Because he wasn't holding himself back, he blossomed as a journalist, and wound up marrying Lois. And then got his powers back...

 

The present day Clark has written novels, too, IIRC.

 

Of course, compared to Lois, he's second rate.

[assault]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

Did somebody just admit that Superman might not be buildable on starting hero points?? Oh' date=' the shock and amazement.[/quote']

 

Err, no. People were saying that you _can_ build Superman on starting points.

 

Easily on 350 points. Cheesily on 250 points. Really really cheesily on 200 points. (I might sit down and do the latter, just to prove it's possible.)

 

Low-point Superman: Armour - bulletproof. Multipower - running, jumping, strength tricks. Optionally, for higher point versions: Life support, Enhanced senses.

 

Subsequently, he expands his multipower, and adds lots more slots.

[JmOz]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

To go back to the original message, the new low powered hero is still SLIGHTLY more powerful than the standerd 4th edition:

 

4th: 100 Base points + 150 Disads

5th: 150 Base Points + 100 Disads

 

The 5th edition character is not as bad in disads

[JmOz]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

Err, no. People were saying that you _can_ build Superman on starting points.

 

Easily on 350 points. Cheesily on 250 points. Really really cheesily on 200 points. (I might sit down and do the latter, just to prove it's possible.)

 

Low-point Superman: Armour - bulletproof. Multipower - running, jumping, strength tricks. Optionally, for higher point versions: Life support, Enhanced senses.

 

Subsequently, he expands his multipower, and adds lots more slots.

 

I've actualy seen a fairly decent 250 point Superman based on Action 1. Then you factor in 65 years of almost weekly stories worth of xp (Both solo and with his teams, note that I am guessing it would average weekly, I know some times it's been monthly, others it has been 10-12 a month)

 

Lets see 65*52*2.5 (average XP in my experience)=8450 xp, so after the base points let's round him up to about 9000 points...Think you could build a convincing one on that? Same goes for Bats BTW, in a normal champions game Bats would be worse that he is now in being UBER

[Metaphysician]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

Err, no. People were saying that you _can_ build Superman on starting points.

 

Easily on 350 points. Cheesily on 250 points. Really really cheesily on 200 points. (I might sit down and do the latter, just to prove it's possible.)

 

Low-point Superman: Armour - bulletproof. Multipower - running, jumping, strength tricks. Optionally, for higher point versions: Life support, Enhanced senses.

 

Subsequently, he expands his multipower, and adds lots more slots.

 

You've just admitted you were wrong. I didn't say "write up a character with a bunch of powers sort of like Superman's, only far far far weaker."

 

I said "write up Superman."

 

*YES*, there is a difference. Power level is *NOT* an irrelevant and optional factor when converting a character.

[Brandi]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

You've just admitted you were wrong. I didn't say "write up a character with a bunch of powers sort of like Superman's, only far far far weaker."

 

I said "write up Superman."

 

And did you say which version?

[Metaphysician]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

Even 1939 Superman was more than "just" bulletproof. You needed an artillery shell to cause him injury.

[Trebuchet]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

Even 1939 Superman was more than "just" bulletproof. You needed an artillery shell to cause him injury.

And what's an "artillery shell" in HERO terms? A 3d6 RKA EX or maybe a 10d6 EX EB? So Superman of 1940 could be virtually immune to such attacks with say 30 PD Hardened. (Even if he takes some Stun, that's not "injury" which I would define as BODY.)

[Metaphysician]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

Um, in Champions terms, an artillery shell is at least 4d6 RKA. A frickin' 20mm cannon is 4d6 RKA.

 

And if you are putting 30/30 resistant hardened on him, thats over a 100 points right there. You'll have a hard time fitting that one a 350 point character while also having room for high characteristics, speed powers, sense powers, and what skills he had even back then.

[Trebuchet]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

Um, in Champions terms, an artillery shell is at least 4d6 RKA. A frickin' 20mm cannon is 4d6 RKA.

 

And if you are putting 30/30 resistant hardened on him, thats over a 100 points right there. You'll have a hard time fitting that one a 350 point character while also having room for high characteristics, speed powers, sense powers, and what skills he had even back then.

Modern guns are much better than 1940's-era weapons. A Bushmaster 25mm cannon from an M2 Bradley could chew through armor it took a 75mm or 88mm gun to do back then. A Bradley's gun could easily penetrate the side armor of a Tiger tank, and up close probably even the frontal armor.

 

In any case, the early Superman could be injured by "nothing less than an exploding shell" which means it might just as well have been an normal explosive attack and not an armor piercing Killing Attack. To avoid BODY damage from such an attack would certainly take no more than 30 rPD, possibly as little as 24 rPD. Hardening would probably be optional as well.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

You'll have a hard time fitting that one a 350 point character while also having room for high characteristics' date=' speed powers, sense powers, and what skills he had even back then.[/quote']I don't think he had any enhanced senses when he first started out - just strength, toughness, high-speed running and leaping.

[Trebuchet]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

I don't think he had any enhanced senses when he first started out - just strength' date=' toughness, high-speed running and leaping.[/quote']That's correct, at least according to the posted timeline. I've already easily built a version in HD2 with all that, plus X-Ray and Heat Vision for 330 points. Still got 20 points left to make him a mild-mannered reporter for a great metropolitan newspaper.

[Metaphysician]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

Um, no, artillery shells are, and have always been, RKAs.

[Trebuchet]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

Um' date=' no, artillery shells are, and have always been, RKAs.[/quote']That is actually incorrect. Artillery shells have traditionally been high explosives which kill more by concussion, although debris and shrapnel from the shell casing hurled by the force of the blast can also cause puncture wounds. They could reasonably be built in HERO with either EB EX or RKA EX, or even a mix of both.

 

In any case that doesn't alter my central premise, which is that 30 rPD or even less is enough to protect one from bodily harm by a 4d6 RKA EX attack. The early Superman could have had as little as 24 rPD and still been functionally invulnerable to small arms fire from rifles and pistols.

[assault]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

In any case that doesn't alter my central premise' date=' which is that 30 rPD or even less is enough to protect one from bodily harm by a 4d6 RKA EX attack. The early Superman could have had as little as 24 rPD and still been functionally invulnerable to small arms fire from rifles and pistols.[/quote']

 

The exact quote was: "nothing less than a bursting shell could penetrate his skin".

 

To me, "penetrate his skin" says: do Body.

 

That sets an UPPER limit on his rPD, since a "bursting shell" CAN penetrate his skin. Note: that's rPD, not PD in general. The problem is: is a 4d6 RKA from a 20 mm cannon a "bursting shell"? If not, what is? What about AP rounds? Can an anti-tank rifle hurt him?

 

As for the lower limit: we know that he is immune to bullets. If we assume that to include .50 cal HMG rounds, he won't take body from 2 1/2d6 RKAs. That means he has at least 15 rPD.

 

Is a mortar round a "bursting shell"?

 

Really, such a decision is arbitrary. But what it means is that if a 3d6 RKA can't hurt him, he must have at least 18 rPD. If a 4d6 RKA can't hurt him, he must have at least 24 rPD, and so on.

 

In actual fact, though, he isn't shown being attacked by anything heavier than small arms in his early appearances. That means that it would be justifiable to go with the 15 rPD figure, or, indeed, even less, since he doesn't get shot at by .50s either, but only by civilian weapons! (Of course "civilian weapons" includes Thompson SMGs, but there ya go!)

 

As for his other powers: the only tricky one is his ability to hurdle a 20 story buildings. The nasty thing with that is not "how tall is a 20 story building", but rather how wide one is! In any case, if he can jump 200m (1/8th of a mile) horizontally, he can jump 100m vertically, which should cover things adequately enough. He can't exactly "hurdle" such buildings, but who cares?

 

Of course, if you do want to be fussy, you could always buy him some Requires a Skill Roll Flight, to cover his amazing acrobatic abilities.

 

His ability to run faster than an express train is no drama. The world speed record for a steam locomotive was set in 1938 at 126 mph. This was during a brake test, not during regular running, but it's still a good figure for basing Superman's running speed on.

 

On the other hand, apparently some of the Grand Prix cars around in those days could make 200 mph, although normal cars couldn't.

 

As for his strength: well, he needs to be able to rip open a bank vault. Again, that is a 1930's bank vault, not a present day one. Unless you are using a "normal objects have vulnerabilities to superpowers" rule, you might want to give him a "rending and tearing" HKA slot in his multipower, to allow him to do the kind of body necessary to do this in a timely manner. He could potentially do with some tunnelling as well, or even instead.

 

In any case, his multipower is his real secret. He starts off with just a couple of innocuous slots like running and superleap, and then starts sticking in things like flight, heat vision and superbreath! Have you ever wondered why he seems to forget powers? It's because he has his MP switched to something else!

 

A true munchkin.

[Trebuchet]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

A very well done analysis, which also nicely supports my theory that 1940 Superman could easily be built with 350 points. I don't it's so much he was a munchkin as that comic book readers 65 years later are a bit more sophisticated than they were in the 40's.

 

Rep is on the way.

[Osprey]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

***Base character of 100 pts+ 150 pts in disadvantages = 250 pts***

This used to be the basic starting hero in Champions ( 1-4) but now it would be a version of LOW POWERED (Hero 5) . I have heard the term "WHIMP" used so many times with regard to characters of that "power" level [players emphasis] .

First of all this is a role-playing game, not a power game (powergamers??)

Secondly, why is a character considered a "whimp" if he only has; a

SPD of 4, PD/ED 15 (fully resistant), 8d6 Energy Blast???? WHY???

Isn't it easier to add points later on in the game, beyond just regular exp pts, then take points away ?? Isn't it more fun to have to worry when captured and deathtrapped , then swallow a 20d6 RKA and just burp???

 

I remember dealling with this.

I have always preferred playing "lower" characters. Ones with more finesse or more unusual powers (the latter flexing my rule lawyer muscles).

The Power Gamers would always rib me for making only wimps. And I kept getting beat up. (BAD GM)

Well, I finally got fed up enough to try one character their way.

STUD was an annoying, conceited high school kid with all his offenses and defenses at a "Good" level. I then stacked a Power Pool on him for good measure. Unlike all my other characters, he enjoyed fighting.

 

It was during his first run, as he rammed an invading starship with all the pool points on defense, that the GM (for that night) actually gave me my first compliment-("Wow, you can make a good character!")

I almost slapped him.

 

I blame the first edition example characters (and most since).

 

Why does a "slow brick" have a DEX of 18? "Slow" should mean 8!

 

Why does every conceivable lab accident endowing any imaginable kind of powers also boost STR by 10-20 points?? Why waste STR on a projector????

 

In Champions II, (Could have been III) back in the 2nd Ed days. A strip featured Foxbat complaining that he "only" had a CV of 8. That's a 23 DEX, Now some campaigns have that as a MAXIMUM!

 

The 5th Ed raised the point level to account for removing the old standard rule that allowed free "specific everyman" skills. (If your Secret ID was a scientist, you automatically had all sciences imaginable with an INT roll).

 

Now, If it ain't bought, you ain't got. That extra 100 points could just barely buy all the science skills a player can think of (particularly knowledge skills) and perks that allow one access to various labs, etc.

 

I share these dual gripes about power gaming and presumed power level. But FrEd is not to blame. He has actually started to fix some of the problem.

[Trebuchet]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

The 5th Ed raised the point level to account for removing the old standard rule that allowed free "specific everyman" skills. (If your Secret ID was a scientist' date=' you automatically had all sciences imaginable with an INT roll).[/quote']Are you sure about that? I distinctly recall buying a number of sciences with XP for my battle-armored scientist character, Ranger. Ranger retired under Champions 3 rules. (His Secret ID was as a physicist at UC Berkeley.) He sure didn't have "all sciences imaginable".)

[JmOz]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

I can say with 100 % certanty that that change had already been made by 4th (If not before, or always) aslo that he is wrong as he is not counting in everyman skills that includes one background skill at an 11- IIRC, and another at an 8-.

[Trebuchet]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

I can say with 100 % certanty that that change had already been made by 4th (If not before' date=' or always) aslo that he is wrong as he is not counting in everyman skills that includes one background skill at an 11- IIRC, and another at an 8-.[/quote']That's what I thought. I've owned every edition of Champions/HERO, although the only obsolete version I still have left is my BBB in the traditional 3-ring binder.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

 

Why? Did yours fall apart? Mine is still good. Scratched, stained and one binding corner is ripped but it still holds together.

 

Hawksmoor