Champions Combat and my problem

[Ndreare]

I also use a "Hesitation" rule. (In all my games not just HERO)

 

If the player hesitates longer than a few breaths I say "Your character hesitates and it cost him" then move on as if the player had acted. This also works in reverse and many times has a villain lost his action or done something stupid because I did not want him to loose his action.

 

Any one who has ever done competition fighting or dirty fighting for that matter knows that in combat things happen fast and their is no time for five minute debates on the most productive actions.

 

I still allow and almost require players work out their next action while the combat is on other players. (A round in my games typically runs 20 seconds to an action plus rolls are another 30 seconds. It also has the benefit of players being able to predict the repetitive actions of over whelming foes as I myself get hurried in battle.

 

There are however two exceptions "Cinematic Actions" take your time describing what your character does as long as you start the description within 20 seconds and the "Tactics Advantage" characters with the tactics skill are allowed extra time based on there skill level (no roll that would only accelerate the problem)

 

So far in all my games I have only received two complaints about the system I will include them and my answer to the complaint.

 

Complaint 1

C: This is stupid my character is an experienced fighter and should be able to work plans in his head way faster than me.

 

A: Yes one because of that as your character has three seconds you get ten times that plus a general overview of the battle he does not get, two if you want you character to be that good give him "Tactics", and three the NPC's are all good in combat also most make their living at it meaning that they to have the same relative advantage or disadvantage as you perceive it to be.

 

Complaint 2

C: This is crap you always rush me and I end up loosing an action in almost every battle.

 

A: Yep... (this is also one of those players that in monopoly will take an hour to decide to buy the property that he buys all the time anyways.)

[tesuji]

Our recent game had four players and speeds from 5-7 for pcs and 4-8 for npcs in play. The long delayes were not there even with these greater differences.

 

They key is teh GM. he needs to move things along and if someone is hemming and hawing step in and just start counting "10...9...8... etc" or something els to say "use it or lose it."

 

In my dnd game, where everyone gets the same actions one after another, there is one guy who is slow as all get out and i have to step up and say "what are you doing" every now and again to keep it moving.

 

This gets more important with more players.

 

I once had a game under a less than skilled gm where not only did i sit for 2.5 hours before my first chance at action came up (actually my second as my first was switching powers in my pool) and just as my action was up the game ended.

 

That actually was my last session withn that gm.

[Arthur]

I was in a 250-point Champs game some years ago. My character was the only one with SPD 4 (and DEX 18). Everyone else (except agents) were 5+. In terms of DEX and SPD, he was outclassed by pretty much everyone.

 

It was one of the best games I ever played in.

 

Why? Because the GM let me build the character with the highest STR in the game (75). Nobody else came close. It took awhile for Ogre (not the green guy) to get in a shot, but when he did - watch out. The GM told me flat out "I freaked out when I saw that STR score, but when I saw the DEX and SPD I approved the character".

 

I think the 350-point scheme is going to cause a lot of problems like this. It allows characters to max out in several areas. At a more reasonable point limitt (I prefer 200 or even 150*), if you want to excel in one area, you have to skimp on another. Sure, you can't build every concept you want. That's a feature, not a bug. If your concept is too powerful for the genre, it SHOULD be impossible to do.

 

 

* at 150 points, I don't make characters pay points for mundane items. They can buy WF and such.

[Super Squirrel]

I have an interesting situation in my game.

 

I have Prodigy Princess at Speed 3 with a very low CV

I have Lizard at Speed 4 with a DCV of 12

I have Whisper at Speed 5 with a CV of 8

I have an Incoming Speedster to the Game

 

Prodigy Princess rarely goes and rarely hits but when she does, she sends the guy down with here 50 STR. If you take into consideration that Whisper will occasionally use here DEX & STR Aid on Prodigy, it makes the game's balance shift somewhat. But boy, I have a hard time getting villains that are a severe challange.

 

What I do is simple, I cap SPD at 6 unless the concept allows above (such as the Speedster). I encourage players to go between SPD 3 and SPD 5 with reasonable DEX. I know the combat order and pass through combat as quick as I can by knowing in advance what the NPCs are going to do.

 

The real cap is on REC. REC above 12 is restricted. Why? Because if you have a high speed, you are going to be spending actions taking a Recovery. It requires a full phase and is a great way of having high SPD characters sit out. In my game Prodigy Princess has a Recovery around 27. She is never going to be low END anytime soon.

[Talon]

Originally posted by WillS

if you ask me what SPD I think Negotiator (my character) should be, I'd say 3. Why? Because he's a normal person.

 

One option would be to give him a base SPD of 3, and then extra SPD "only for Mental Powers" -- he's quick of mind but not of foot.

 

Conveniently, this works out best if his mental speed is double his base SPD -- now you have an excuse to be SPD 6.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

Heh, I limited /starting/ SPD to 5 once and had someone start with 5.9 "because it rounds down to 5" and they could go to 6 with their first XP.

 

I'd just smile, tell them they couldn't spend their XP on SPD, and then inform them that they should have read my house rules doc (so few do until its too late! and I warn them, too...) because rewrites after play starts are only with GM permission.

 

That character will have a 5.9 speed for a long time:D

[CleverName]

Time to have a long talk

 

I think STORN's solution is pretty intriguing, for the problem the campaing is having. Certainly in a game where everyone has the same speed, this may be the best way of mixing things up a bit.

 

I think it sounds like it's time for an honest sit-down with the players.

 

I personally would not want to run a game in which everyone had the same SPD. I've played in a lot of fun games where SPDs varied by as much as 5 points.

 

BTW, STORN - so are you still playing M&M or have you gone back to HERO?

[Uncle Shecky]

Originally posted by WillS

I wonder if something like this would work: Your power's active pts should equal 130 minus your spd times ten. That would be a good cap, since you could have a spd one "Brick" and spd 12 wimp. Maybe the extremes aren't that good of an example, but something along those lines.

 

WillS mentioned this idea a few pages back, but it didn't attract much discussion. I really like inversely linking the active point max to SPD, although I would go with active points = 120-(SPD * 10). (I'm accustomed to lower-powered games, so a character with a 6 SPD and a 14D6 EB frightens me a bit. But whatever works for you.)

 

Having a standard point cost for characters (like 350 pts.) is meant to balance different character types out, but in my experience SPD and DEX give you such a good return on your point investment that speedy characters tend to be more powerful. Slower characters need to devote most of their DEX and SPD savings to high defenses, or else they'll spend their precious phases dodging and blocking. Giving them a higher active point cap for their attacks seems like a nice way to help maintain balance. Has anyone else tried this?

[Storn]

Re: Time to have a long talk

 

Originally posted by CleverName

I think STORN's solution is pretty intriguing, for the problem the campaing is having. Certainly in a game where everyone has the same speed, this may be the best way of mixing things up a bit.

 

I think it sounds like it's time for an honest sit-down with the players.

 

I personally would not want to run a game in which everyone had the same SPD. I've played in a lot of fun games where SPDs varied by as much as 5 points.

 

BTW, STORN - so are you still playing M&M or have you gone back to HERO?

 

Arrrrgh!!! NOT MY solution. It was my GM's. RDU Neil should get the credit, not me. . All I did was playtest the hell out of it and write it up here, using my very, limited net- celeb role to push it. (I'm not taking the celeb thing seriously... that is suppose to be tongue firmly in cheek).

 

As for M&M and Hero...yes. I play both. RDU Neil runs Champions one week, the sub campaign called the Dragons. I run M&M next week, sub campaign called UNTIL Black Ops. Both games are set in the same campaign world, Red Dragon Universe. Neil's campaign has been going on for 16 years, I've taken part in about 10 of those years.

 

The game has been on a slight hiatus due to the fact we were supposed to game last Thursday, but I did a number on my neck and was in a lot of pain Thursday (felt it pop watching TV, ironically, not even doing something active like karate or tennis...sheesh). Neil is out of town on business this week. Next week, I'll run M&M.