Champions Combat and my problem

[WillS]

In our game our GM limits the speed to 5. Four years ago when I first started with this group, I built a Shape Changer semi-brick with a speed of four. I quickly learned my mistake when everyone else was going so much more that i was. Now I know that it really wasn't that much more, each player got only one extra segment than i did, but considering bad guys (who were mostly speed 5) and that there were 4 other players, There were usually 10 ppl doing taking thier turns before i got a chance to do anything at times. Since then, I've always made sure my characters have had a speed of 5. The reason I bring this up is becasue a discussion came up in our group about rasing the SPD cap to 6 if there was a valid reason for the character to have it. I said that it's a TERRIBLE idea and that if someone went to spd 6 i'd make damn sure that my char would be a spd 6 too. Everyone looked at me like i was nuts. I said basically remember way back when four years ago, blah blah blah, trying to explain my point of veiw, but my group believes it's not that bad.

Now, Chmpions is a great game, and i really enjoy playing. But combat takes forever, and i go to have fun. It's not fun if it's a half hour between times i get to do my actions as it was four years ago. Am I just being a little whiner? Are ppl in your group basically the same speed? Maybe i have bad memories because i was the ONLY one at speed four way back when. What are your thoughts?

[zornwil]

My group and others I've seen have had varying speeds, and it isn't an issue. However, if there were a situation where everyone but one player is at a given speed, including the enemies, I can see that as frustrating, unless you have some distinguishing feature, such as being the real heavyweight hitter.

 

Now that they want to go to 6 SPD for "special" circumstances, I think it's fair if the GM will enforce that only 1 or 2 players have it. Your group history indicates that won't be so. I would just wait and see and simply tell the GM that if you see more than half the group go over to 6 SPD then you'll take it the SPD is no longer "special".

[WillS]

We're also limited to 60 active pts per power which i don't mind. You gave me an Idea about the slow guy beiing the real heavy hitter. I wonder if something like this woul work: Your powers active pts should equal 130 minus your spd times ten. That would be a good cap, since you could have a spd one "Brick" and spd 12 wimp. Maybe the extremes aren't that good of an example, but something along those lines. Thanks for the help

[lemming]

I've never had a big problem with it. I've been in games where I played a speed 12 with other players at 5-10.

 

I also played a speed 4 with other players at up to speed 15. Though the GM made myself and the other speed 4 buy up to 5 after we went and got pizza between our phases on 9 and 12.

[WillS]

Originally posted by lemming

Though the GM made myself and the other speed 4 buy up to 5 after we went and got pizza between our phases on 9 and 12.

 

ROTFLMAO!!

 

You nailed it, that's exactly how it felt for me.

[Toadmaster]

I've been there, I play mostly heroic games (Fantasy Hero etc), when there is a spread of speeds its not a big deal but when you run a speed 3 character and most of the other players and opponents are speed 4 or faster it is frustrating, it also results in all the characters being speed 4 which with 50 to 75pt chars really starts to cut into character color.

 

About the only thing I can suggest is to get the GM to balance the game by limiting players speeds and the speeds of opponents. He should determine average, fast and really fast (generally 4, 5 and 6) and make sure the characters are balanced within this, if all the characters are speed 6 then 6 is not an exceptional speed. It may take the GM editing some of the characters to make sure there is a mix of speed, otherwise he should just stick to the max and accept that all characters will be that speed. In my opinion if 6 is max and standard humans are 2-3, then typical supers should be 4, a few 5 and 6 should be uncommon. Speed is one of HERO's great stats, but it can create many problems when its effects are not considered. One option is to set a "base" speed and require permission to be faster, the GM should not allow the whole group to be faster than this speed, the bulk of the group and opponents should be this speed with only a handful faster, another consideration is trying to avoid only one slow character to avoid the problem you mentioned.

[Stephen_H-G]

Here is a quick fix for this problem, but possibly a very stupid fix:

 

Have everyone roll a number of d6s equal to their speed at the beginning of a round.

 

Count from one; whenever someone gets a number from their d6s they get to go. If they rolled a number more than once they go more than once.

 

It is weird (and it is stolen from Clinton R. Nixon's game Donjon) and I haven't tried it. But maybe it would work.

[DrSavant]

SPEED Freaks

 

I've been in situations like this before and I feel that this MUST be said.

If the GM sets a house rule about SPD or any other game aspect,then whom but the most SELFISH, EGOMANIAC of PC's would want to go beyond that????

Now I hear all those "FLASH" wannabees yelling out there.

What is the reason for the HIGH SPD? Limit it to non-combat if they are attempting to do the FLASH.

(You also have MEGASCALE etc to simulate this effect.)

What is the power level of the game? [ see HERO page # 15]

 

PLEASE do not turn Champions into an "Arms race" where; everyone is striving to outdo each other, or the low man on the totem pole has to "beg" the players and/or the GM for just a few extra points (or he'd be a whimp)

[Talon]

I would also consider suggesting some sort of timer for each character's Phases -- if everyone is taking several minutes to decide on their action, low SPD characters are going to feel left out.

 

My favorite SPD anecdote was a gritty supers campaign where my character (the white supremacist/casual killer/sensory-based mentalist) and the combat monster (SPD, DEX, STR, Armor, big stick) were assaulting some normals. I kicked the door down and dropped one of them with an NND, and then he got like 3 phases and before I could blink the rest were taken out. It was actually very funny.

[Storn]

Here is our fix. RDU Neil came up with this and we've used it for the last 5 years. It speeds up Champions combat immensely and we love the drama of it.

 

Begin the combat... 1d6 Initiative roll, add your Speed. Magic number is 11 and 17.

 

If you get an 11 or higher: you get a second action after ALL first actions have taken place.

 

17: you get 2nd and 3rd action after ALL first actions have taken place.

 

There are no free recoveries. You have to blow an action (often, a common use for 2nd actions). 4 initiatitves = 1 turn of 12 phases ffor those powers that need that kind of reckoning.

 

 

Why? Because you now can play a speed 2 character, occasionally go before a speed 6 character (although I wouldn't bet on it often). Everyone gets at least one action. No recoveries really cuts down on the combat and makes taking a recovery really, really important tactical consideration. Makes Pushing dangerous. Peoples turns come around MUCh quicker than 1 speed 8, 1 speed 6, 2 speed 5s and 1 speed 4 Champs group.

 

And there is real drama, hoping for that good initiative roll to get a second action. We all enjoy the inititaitive roll. Speed also becomes more of a "veteran" stat. Since movement is not AS tied to several actions, you can have a high Speed (the wiley combat vet) and yet not "feel" like he is sprinting across the combat area like a wild weasel on coke.

 

Speed wars are a thing of the past. Speeds tend to be 5/6. But a speed 8 character does not feel like a bit spotlight hog. We've even played with a speedster of Speed 12... and he didn't feel overwhelming either, even when he got 3 actions occasionally.

 

One important thing, Blocks and Dodges bonuses carry over if someone attacks you with 2 actions. So blocks and dodges have become a very important part of our combats. But the defender suffers a -1 DCV for each add'l attack, whether from 1 opponent with two actions (and two attacks) or from mulitple attackers.

 

For Fantasy Hero, I make the magic number 9. So speed 3 characters can occasionaly get that 2nd action and a speed 4 is damn good.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: SPEED Freaks

 

Originally posted by DrSavant

I've been in situations like this before and I feel that this MUST be said.

If the GM sets a house rule about SPD or any other game aspect,then whom but the most SELFISH, EGOMANIAC of PC's would want to go beyond that????

 

Wow, dude. Why the insults?

 

Who wants to have a higher Speed? The World's Fastest Man, that's who. Why shouldn't a character have a higher SPD if his concept calls for it?

 

The original poster was talking about having the same SPD as everyone else, and about how it felt to be one SPD behind everyone else in the combat, and about how the SPD cap might be changing and, pretty much, a general dissatisfaction with the idea of SPD caps and a "SPD arms race" mentality.

 

[JohnTaber]

Hi Gents,

 

I think Geoff has the right approach (i.e. speed up the combat instead of arguing about speed differences). I have been running campaigns of all types over the years and I have never had an issue. In fact right now 2 out of 4 PC in my game have 4 speeds and the others are 6 and 7! The trick is to keep everything moving quickly and not let things sit. Some things I do that help...

 

+ I got a big foam d12 that keep track of the segment. This way I don't have to responds to the question of what phase it is every 10 seconds.

+ I ask players for their actions. If they hesitate at all I start counting down from 5! 5...4...3...2...1... If they don't respond then they save their phase. Bam. Move along. This also has the effect of making snap judgements in combat. I think that's cool and fun!

[Old Man]

Re: Re: SPEED Freaks

 

Originally posted by archer

Who wants to have a higher Speed? The World's Fastest Man, that's who. Why shouldn't a character have a higher SPD if his concept calls for it?

 

Well considering that the GM limited SPD to 5 then the world's fastest man would be SPD 5. I think WillS should talk to his GM and maybe his group about this. If the fastest SPD that the GM is allowing is now 6, then any character with SPD 6 better damn well have it justified because that will be the fastest character in the universe.

[Talon]

Heh, I limited /starting/ SPD to 5 once and had someone start with 5.9 "because it rounds down to 5" and they could go to 6 with their first XP.

[JamesG]

Originally posted by Shadowpup

If the fastest SPD that the GM is allowing is now 6, then any character with SPD 6 better damn well have it justified because that will be the fastest character in the universe.

 

No, he'll be the fastest PC in the universe. Villains/NPCs routinely have Speeds higher than 5.

 

I'm one of the other players in WillS's group.

 

We're thinking of doing away with (or greatly raising) most hard caps and adopting a modified version of Keneton's ER system instead.

 

I think most of WillS's bad experience before with having a Speed one lower than the other PCs was due to too much time wasting/stalling during combat. JohnTaber and Geoff's ideas to move things along at a faster pace should help with that. Storn's method is intriguing, but I'm not sure we want to make such a radical change.

[TheEmerged]

Combat in HERO can bog down non-trivially. There are some things you can do to speed it up.

 

1> There is no substitute for preparation. Say it again. Repeat it as many times as you need to before it sinks in One of the advantages of the new movement END cost rule is that it's much easier to predict your END usage -- this makes combat bookkeeping easier, which in turn makes combat go a little faster.

 

2> Consider tossing the hexmaps for miniatures and a tape measure. While I'm still not 100% satisfied with how this works in relation to "turn mode", you'll find that this simple step will *dramatically* speed things up. I'm beginning to wonder if the tape measure, not the miniatures, is the key.

 

3> Egg timer. The group I play D&D with (which has three players not in the HERO group) has two particular individuals who take *way* too long in combat -- each for a different reason. "Bruce" simply doesn't pay attention to what's happening when it isn't his turn and therefore has to spend sixty to a hundred second each round just trying to figure out what the situation is. "Kyle" on the other hand is no good at making up his mind, and will often plot out several different actions before picking one -- and then he'll spend half the remaining turn saying he should have [done the other option].

 

It's cruel, but at some point you have to take the other players into consideration. Bring an egg timer or chess clock (especially the "countdown" type) and enforce it.

 

That brings us back to #1; especially for the "Kyle" player it's important to have a good list of the options specifically designed and pre-figured for that character. It's not enough to say "Your Martial Strike is +2 DCV and +2d6", have "Martial Strike: OCV 7 DCV 9 Damage 12d6".

 

4> Eliminate any optional rule you feel is slowly it down. I'm *that* close to house-ruling a Hurry/Hipshot variant because of the way it's quickly becoming an every-turn Initiative roll -- one more roll every character makes every phase.

 

RE: Hard Limits. Traditionally, I've been the King of Hard Limits. For our first campaign (superheroic) under 5th Edition I've temporarily replaced them with a "cap", and I have to say it's working better than I expected. Then again, my HERO players are generally on the mature side; that is, they recognize broken does not equal fun. I'm also wondering if this will be the case when we try our first NCM-default campaign under 5th...

[Graviton]

This is part of the problem with hard limits, IMO. Everybody will want to have the maximum, no matter the character concept. You may as well run combat w/o a SPD chart (which would speed things up...)

 

We have an unspoken range, 4-7, that we never verbally agreed upon but just happened. Two PCs out of a total of about 20 exceed 7, with most at 5 or 6. Perhaps I'm lucky to have players who are more concerned with character concept than maxing out their stats.

 

In campaigns that do have hard limits, it would be up to the GM to make sure the players don't all have the maximum. He should also make sure all the villains aren't at max either, that will give the players one less reason to want their PCs maxed out.

[DoctorItron]

WillS, in my opinion there really isn't such a drastic difference between SPD 4 and 5. However, if you dislike being the slowest character, I think it's fine to boost your SPD.

 

I've been in gaming groups where I hated having a low SPD. For a while I played nothing but speedsters to deal with the problem. Then I realized that my problem wasn't having a low SPD, but rather it was combat that dragged on forever. That can be caused by players taking too long to make decisions, not knowing the rules well enough for quick combat, or spending an excessive amount of time getting distracted talking about non-game stuff in the middle of combat.

 

Note that I recently (since October) started GM'ing a Champions campaign with new players. Two PCs are SPD 4, two are 5, one is 6, and the speedster is 8. Everyone pays attention during combat and makes quick decisions, so the SPD 4 characters don't spend much time waiting.

 

As for campaign limits, I'm generally capping things at 60 active points. If a player asks for permission to exceed the limit, I'm more likely to allow it if the character has a low SPD.

[WonderStuff]

Will and James' GM Chimes In

 

Hi All,

This might fall under “Too Much Infoâ€, but I’ll offer it just the same.

 

I'm Will's and James' GM though we have all taken turns running adventures. The game has been running for about 5 (???) years. We started at 250 pts. but as new players came on, or player created new Heroes, we raised the starting Points so there would be less discrepancy between power levels. That's all for background. Here are some "house rules"/guidelines I set up from the start and the reasons for them.

 

Bear in mind that the staring group of players had some "munchkins"… "gamers" that would play a very high speed hero just because they would get to be the most active. Also, many players would put all (most) their EXP into combat skills, Dex, Speed, OCV levels, etc. This got real boring and relatively "young" heroes had incredibly high combat stats. But once combat ended and they needed to look for clues, talk to the prisoners, reassure the public, etc. they had their hands in their spandex pockets. "Ummm...is Oratory an Everyman Skill? How about Criminology?". In effect they were just swapping times they couldn't contribute to the game/adventure. High combat skills and low knowledge/background skills meant they were active in combat but bored out of combat. I create (try to at least) adventures where combat is secondary...the point of the adventure would be to figure out the clues, track down the bad guys and figure out a way to defeat them. Combat Machines with little non-combat skills didn't fit into my adventures well.

 

So I put a SPD 5 limit and a OCV limit of 12-14-ish and an Active Cost Limit of 60 pts. By limiting the combat stats, it forced players to spend their EXP on other things and therefore (hopefully) have a more rounded character. And be able to do more out-of-combat stuff which would keep their interest up since they would be participating in the game more. Balance was the key. If the players have lower SPD then they participate less in combat, but HOPEFULLY they spent that 10 or 20 points on useful skills, Contacts, etc. which make them more useful OUT of combat. I was hoping to install (“forceâ€, some would say) balanced Heroes.

 

(Quick note…I based my Villains on an average Hero SPD of 5 and the power levels of the heroes. If I had a Villain I thought should be pretty darn fast, I thought it would be a problem if we had a hero that didn’t have a Speedster concept with a speed of 6 or 7. If the Villain’s concept was like the Flash…of being able to run around, keep actions held to Dive for Cover, Block or Missile Deflect…his concept would fall apart if his SPD was only 1 or 2 higher than the average Hero he’s up against. If even the non-speedsters could go 6 or 7, then MY Speedster would have to be 10, 11 or 12 to get the GAME EFFECT for which I was looking.)

 

But now everyone is SPD 5 (the Super Secret Agent, the Swordsman, the Egoist, etc.) We need more variety and clarifications in our powers. But we need to do this in a way to “reward†players that opt for a lower Speed. That might be to allow them higher APs for some powers.

 

What I’m NOT going to do is incorporate a system that applies my version of their character conception to their character sheet. For instance, “I see your hero as more of a Daredevil quickness rather than Spiderman quickness, so your Dex and SPD are limited to 23 / 5â€.

 

We have a mature group that I hope could have a well defined character conception and can impose self limits on powers and costs. But, again, there should be rewards or benefits for the hero that opts to have 4 actions instead of 6.

 

That’s why were talking about this…to implement a simple, easy and playable system that can allow us to create the characters we envision and maintain some semblance of balance.

 

Whew!

Thanks for all the input,

Mark

[DoctorItron]

WonderStuff/Mark, I agree with what you've said. Let me add that the key is for players to have fun. If any player doesn't like their character, let them experiment with changes, and as GM you reserve the right to roll back any changes that prevent other players from having fun.

 

The solution for WillS might be to experiment with a new speedster; SPD might be more important to him than to your other players.

 

My current group has SPDs ranging from 4 to 8. No one's complained yet. But, if the SPD 4 players hinted at boredom, I'd encourage them to increase their SPD, or possibly

(in extreme cases only) force the high SPD character to become slower.

[WillS]

Just more info. I'm the Egoist of the team. I'm a normal human with all the fun Mind Control / Mental Illusions stuff. My character concept was a police hostage negotiator who uses his powers for that purpose. I kept all my powers in the 60 AP cap. I also spent about 100 pts on skills; Oratory, Conversation, Persuasion, ect. Now i've played this character for about 8 months with enjoyment, but if you ask me what SPD I think Negotiator (my character) should be, I'd say 3. Why? Because he's a normal person. However, being in Mark's group for the past 4 years, with everyone else at a 5, I wasn't ging to have Negotiator be at 3. So basically I blew 20 pts 'just to keep up". That's why I think Storn's idea is brilliant. Anyway not to kiss up but Mark is one of those GMs that you'd be lucky to have, and I understand his frustration with all our characters maxed out at caps; after all, where's the character conception that way? Maybe i'm being foolish, If i picture Negotiator as a SPD 3, that's what he should be, and I should just deal with it. Now, if we decide to lift the caps in our games, I'd probably LOWER Negotiators SPD and raise his powers. After all, I envisioned him in the first place being able to do Area Effect Mind Controls and Mental Illusions with a decent amount of dice (something I couldn't do with 60 AP). I figure i'd have Negotiator's AP per power be somewhere in the 120 AP range. I figure if I'm moving on only 4, 8, & 12, then my characters actions should be memorable. Regardless, I'm looking forward to our campaign changes, and hope things go smooth.

Cheers,

-Will

[DoctorItron]

WillS, talk to Mark about dropping your SPD to 3 and increasing the active points in your powers. 120 active points might be too high based on Mark's statement of the 60 active point guideline, but I'm sure you can come to a compromise.

 

In my game, I'd encourage you to stick with a SPD 4 and let you go to 80 (???) active points. SPD 3 might be too slow if the other players plan to use the new SPD 6 limit.

[WonderStuff]

Yes...we're ready for a change

 

The Title says it all. We are ready for a change. I agree with just about ALL of the statements made by the participants in this thread. (Thanks).

 

Our challenge is to find a system that allows creativity and uniquenes in our Heroes and balance that with player enjoyment. This usually equates with SPD (number of actions per turn) but as Will is ready to admit, he is willing to forgo some actions to have a larger impact, less often. Very fair and I applaud Will for what might well be the compromise we are looking for.

 

James is volunteering to be the bookkeepper of the of the ER system he is proposing. (see James' post) Cool. I think we should try it and see if it improvs the game and our char. conceptions.

 

And Will, your butt-kissing earns you an extra 10 EXP. Keep up the good work. (Go ahead...spend it on SPD)

 

Mark

[Old Man]

I understand WillS's issue. There's this number on the character sheet that defines how much time the player gets to spend playing the game. As long as you're within one or two SPD points of the average it's not usually that much of a problem. That said, Hero combat is pretty complex, and it will slow down unless everyone at the table is ready to go when their action comes up. At that point they should know what it is they're going to do--in any game, and in Hero especially, it is really not acceptable for any player to sit there trying to decide what to do when his phase comes up.

[Storn]

>>>That's why I think Storn's idea is brilliant.<<<

 

Not my idea. I helped refine it a bit. But that was the extent of my input. I think it may have grown out of a old Adventurer's Club idea... and RDU Neil expanded upon it a bit.

 

However, I have playtested the heck out of the concept and it really, really works. It speeds up combat, makes it more chaotic (which I think Superpower combat should be), folks are more apt to blow actions for role-playing or exploring that "it's so crazy, it just might work, idea". Because the next intitiative roll is right around the corner.

 

combat lasts longer in game terms (combats last 5 minutes sometimes), because of blowing actions or a lot of movement and envrionrmental tactics. But take less "real/table" time than the speed chart combat of only 30 secs (2 turns of 12 phases).

 

I love it and will never got back.